What to do during a police encounter...

[Buka]

I don't usually cop talk on our forum, I get enough of that nonsense at work, but I think @Urban Trekker brings up an important point - "equivalent to a McDonald's employee not putting too much or not enough secret sauce on the Big Macs."

I have a Big Mac once every two months. Hadn't had one in forty years until recently. That sauce is important stuff.

Just wanted to contribute to the interesting thread.

 

[Urban Trekker]

If he's worried about losing an argument with a member of the public, he's already suckered. And just to be clear, cops interact with a lot of people, and they aren't all suspects. Even if they're rude. Being rude isn't a crime.

And the way to not worry about losing an argument is to not get into the argument in the first place. I've been saying that the whole time.

It's not a crime to be rude, but have you ever thought about the possibility that the average person probably commits crimes everyday without even knowing it?

Got a story for you: I was a young teenager at the time, but old enough to have my own vehicle. I was a junior or senior in high school at the time. Anyhow, I was near a busy intersection (not in my vehicle, but walking), where two police cars had someone pulled over.

Another person who saw this shouted "f*** the police" and a bunch of other crap, while they were crossing the street. His mistake? He was jaywalking. This is a violation that is very rarely ever enforced, yet this guy got a ticket for something he otherwise wouldn't have if he had kept his mouth shut.

Thankfully, he wasn't dumb enough to escalate the situation to something where could have gotten charged with more.

100%, and that goes for cops, too. What you're describing is not collaboration. It's unquestioning obedience. It's entirely one sided. Collaboration is inherently cooperative, and requires mutual respect... not just one sided. Do you really not see that?

Are you saying that we should only obey the order if we agree with it?

Let me say it a different way. If you are telling me what to do and if I don't, you will beat me with your baton, that's not collaboration or "working together."

I never presented that scenario. I simply said "helping" the suspect comply. That could be something as simple as ordering them to move three steps to the left, and then physically moving them to that spot if they refuse. Not beating obedience out of them.

Now, it may be that we have different profiles in mind when we say the above statements. So, just for clarity, I'm still back on routine traffic stops, even up to protestors, open carry advocates, etc. We can talk about scenarios where cooperativeness on the part of a cop is inappropriate and could even be dangerous


Remember, we're not talking about obeying orders. We're talking about losing arguments and being made to look foolish. This all started when you said something about not letting someone challenge your authority by making you look foolish, forcing you to slink away with your tail between your legs... something along those lines.

Those two things tie in, right? Is a person who is arguing with the police usually obeying their orders, or vice versa?

Also, should note, there are circumstances where a member of the public is not obligated to obey an order by a cop, as the order is unlawful. Which gets more to the topic of this thread, as when and how to safely disobey an unlawful order is tricky business when you don't have a gun but the cop has one.

Outside of things that a plainly obvious, for example, an officer telling you to eat dog feces that's laying on the ground; you're better off doing what you're told and following up in court.

To be really honest, I'm glad that's not up to you, because I think you and I have very different opinions about who the inmates are in your analogy.

What, how I parent my children isn't up to me? "Inmates running the asylum" is simply a saying that refers a situation where the people who are subject to a particular authority have taken over. You know that.

I think what you perceive says more about you than anyone else. That's true in general. We all react to snapshots by projecting a lot of context that comes from us.

Ah, so you're perfectly fine when people who are in positions of authority remain so, even if they're ineffective at exercising it.

I'm just really glad you're not a cop. Earlier, you readily agreed you lack the temperament for the role. I think we should have just stopped there. I'll just get off the crazy train now, though... a few stops late, but better than not at all.

Maybe, but consider this: I wouldn't be the worst cop. Hell, 99th percentile being the worst, I don't think I'd even be in the 50th.

 

[Steve]

And the way to not worry about losing an argument is to not get into the argument in the first place. I've been saying that the whole time.

It's not a crime to be rude, but have you ever thought about the possibility that the average person probably commits crimes everyday without even knowing it?

Got a story for you: I was a young teenager at the time, but old enough to have my own vehicle. I was a junior or senior in high school at the time. Anyhow, I was near a busy intersection (not in my vehicle, but walking), where two police cars had someone pulled over.

Another person who saw this shouted "f*** the police" and a bunch of other crap, while they were crossing the street. His mistake? He was jaywalking. This is a violation that is very rarely ever enforced, yet this guy got a ticket for something he otherwise wouldn't have if he had kept his mouth shut.

Thankfully, he wasn't dumb enough to escalate the situation to something where could have gotten charged with more.

Let's try to get this thread back on track.

Let's say he kept on talking... what's next? If you were the cop, what would you do if you were giving this kid a ticket for jaywalking and he called you a pig in a very disrespectful manner?

What do the LEO here think about this scenario? You are giving someone a ticket for running a red light or something, and a dude crossing the street (jaywalking), says, "F*** the police!" and other colorful language, as he walks by. Would you give him a hard time? Stop him and give him a ticket, maybe go fishing for something more?

What if he doesn't stop jawing at you, pulls out his phone or yells for other people to pull out theirs, and says more mean things to you?

I'm curious, because I think we've all seen good and bad examples of how to handle a situation like this. Sometimes, this exact situation ends up with a dead dude. I think we can all agree that yelling at cops is a bad idea, but being disrespectful isn't a crime.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Something to keep in mind with the spirit of getting the thread back on track. Keep in mind I've only skimmed the last few pages so this might not be needed; sorry to all if it's not.

Discussing what to do and why to do it, is in spirit of the thread, and self-defense in general (reacting in a certain way is more or less likely to result in harm to yourself). Similar to that, discussing what the LEO's reactions to certain things (for instance how would LEO react to refusing to hand over cash), is also in that vein. But arguing over the character of LEO, and what they should/shouldn't be doing in your view (as opposed to what they actually do/don't do), is unrelated to self-defense and this thread.

 

[dvcochran]

Okay, I'm not sure if you're a police officer - maybe you are.

Bear in mind that I'm not, so I'm not speaking from full understanding of the procedures.

Maybe there are other things that need to happen before the cop can smash the window; I get that. But I also don't think that there's any circumstance where a cop's actions are determined by whether or not the cop wins the argument or gets stumped by a rhetorical question.

Sure, rather than walk away after losing the argument, the cop still could carry out a particular action that requires physical contact with the apprehendee, but I think that would look even worse. It would look like the cop is agreeing he would be wrong if he did it, and still did it anyway.

Was an officer. Wife is an attorney and I do a good amount of legal contract work in my capital project discovery/design.
I do not remember ever seeing an officer get in an 'argument' with someone. That would be the totally wrong personality for a LEO. TV does a good job of creating this falsehood.
One of the first things you learn is to use and lean on your backup. If you do not know something it is a good bet your backup will.
Just like every other job in the world, no one knows everything. The smart guy knows where to find the answers.

 

[Urban Trekker]

Let's try to get this thread back on track.

Let's say he kept on talking... what's next? If you were the cop, what would you do if you were giving this kid a ticket for jaywalking and he called you a pig in a very disrespectful manner?

Interesting thing about this, is that the kid was pretty brave when he thought the cops couldn't get him for anything. And then he changed up his attitude real quick when they got him.

Just for changing up his attitude, I probably would have let him go after letting him know that I could ticket him for jaywalking if I wanted to. And then actually do it, if he continues to run his mouth.

 

[Steve]

Interesting thing about this, is that the kid was pretty brave when he thought the cops couldn't get him for anything. And then he changed up his attitude real quick when they got him.

Just for changing up his attitude, I probably would have let him go after letting him know that I could ticket him for jaywalking if I wanted to. And then actually do it, if he continues to run his mouth.

Huh. What if he continued to disrespect you and make you look foolish? You’d walk away with your tail between your legs? What if that was on video, you slinking away?

 

[Urban Trekker]

Huh. What if he continued to disrespect you and make you look foolish? You’d walk away with your tail between your legs? What if that was on video, you slinking away?

That depends on when it stops. Does it stop when or before I give him the ticket? If so, I'll let it go. If he continues afterwards, then I can fish for additional things to get him for. And, having grown up in the particular environment that I've grown up in, I know the right things to say to get someone to threaten me with violence... and now we've got a charge that I can haul his butt in for.

 

[Buka]

Let's try to get this thread back on track.

Let's say he kept on talking... what's next? If you were the cop, what would you do if you were giving this kid a ticket for jaywalking and he called you a pig in a very disrespectful manner?

What do the LEO here think about this scenario? You are giving someone a ticket for running a red light or something, and a dude crossing the street (jaywalking), says, "F*** the police!" and other colorful language, as he walks by. Would you give him a hard time? Stop him and give him a ticket, maybe go fishing for something more?

What if he doesn't stop jawing at you, pulls out his phone or yells for other people to pull out theirs, and says more mean things to you?

I'm curious, because I think we've all seen good and bad examples of how to handle a situation like this. Sometimes, this exact situation ends up with a dead dude. I think we can all agree that yelling at cops is a bad idea, but being disrespectful isn't a crime.

In my opinion, anyone who takes bait easily -letting a yelling, or drunken, idiot get under your skin enough to make you loose your cool - might be in the wrong profession.

As a side note to the jaywalking thing - I thought I was going to get shot by LAPD for jaywalking in in the nighties. I kid you not.

 

[drop bear]

Okay, maybe "defiant," "recalcitrant," or "non-compliant" would have been better words to use. Either way, the point is the same: obedience to authority.

Disorderly is the term we use.

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[geezer]

I thought I was going to get shot by LAPD for jaywalking in in the nighties. I kid you not.

Did you say ...nighties?

 

[Buka]

Did you say ...nighties?

View attachment 27234

Cmon, give a guy a break. It wasn't like it was see through or anything.

 

[Koryuhoka]

I invoke ALL my Constitutional Rights, and make it clear that I will not waive any of them. The Bill of Rights.

 

[geezer]

I invoke ALL my Constitutional Rights, and make it clear that I will not waive any of them. The Bill of Rights.

So... I'm guessing you are white?

Not disagreeing mind you, but there is a difference between theory and practice. For a lot of people, taking your high principled stance might be risky, don't you think?

 

[Koryuhoka]

So... I'm guessing you are white?

Not disagreeing mind you, but there is a difference between theory and practice. For a lot of people, taking your high principled stance might be risky, don't you think?

I am not white.

The Bill Of Rights protects us from tyranny. People are proving this everyday, holding LEO accountable. They swear an oath to the Constitution, to uphold it. If you are not committing a crime, and you are stopped, questioned and detained by the police, they are breaking their oath and that is a crime. The only way they can make you ID yourself is if you have committed an crime. By law, they have to articulate the crime. If they cannot, they are violating your rights, and breaking - dishonoring the oath they swore. The only risk is to them, if they follow through and arrest you using made up laws to entrap you. They are public servants. Their salaries, benefits and pensions come from us. They work for us and are accountable to us.

This is not an "anti cop" thing. It is the reality they try to blind us from, that they entrap us with made up laws. It is UN-American.

 

[drop bear]

I am not white.

The Bill Of Rights protects us from tyranny. People are proving this everyday, holding LEO accountable. They swear an oath to the Constitution, to uphold it. If you are not committing a crime, and you are stopped, questioned and detained by the police, they are breaking their oath and that is a crime. The only way they can make you ID yourself is if you have committed an crime. By law, they have to articulate the crime. If they cannot, they are violating your rights, and breaking - dishonoring the oath they swore. The only risk is to them, if they follow through and arrest you using made up laws to entrap you. They are public servants. Their salaries, benefits and pensions come from us. They work for us and are accountable to us.

This is not an "anti cop" thing. It is the reality they try to blind us from, that they entrap us with made up laws. It is UN-American.

Yeah. But what if I want them to tazer guys for that kind of irrigating nonsense.

Technically they also work for me.

 

[punisher73]

I am not white.

The Bill Of Rights protects us from tyranny. People are proving this everyday, holding LEO accountable. They swear an oath to the Constitution, to uphold it. If you are not committing a crime, and you are stopped, questioned and detained by the police, they are breaking their oath and that is a crime. The only way they can make you ID yourself is if you have committed an crime. By law, they have to articulate the crime. If they cannot, they are violating your rights, and breaking - dishonoring the oath they swore. The only risk is to them, if they follow through and arrest you using made up laws to entrap you. They are public servants. Their salaries, benefits and pensions come from us. They work for us and are accountable to us.

This is not an "anti cop" thing. It is the reality they try to blind us from, that they entrap us with made up laws. It is UN-American.

There are some nuances that vary state to state that could get you into trouble if you think that they can only make you ID yourself if you committing a crime.

Many states that have "shall ID" laws list 3 circumstances: 1) You did commit a crime 2) You are suspected of committing a crime and 3) You are suspected that you are about to commit a crime. These are based on a "reasonable suspicion".

Other states also have a "loitering" clause in their shall ID, which basically states if you are hanging out in an area that is not a general place or time to be there in that location, then you have to ID yourself while they are looking into why you are there. For example, hanging around a bank with no ATM at 2am.

So, going back to your scenario that you only have to ID if you are committing a crime. There is a retail fraud (shoplifting) call that goes out and the description is a white male wearing jeans and a dark colored coat that ran out of the store. You are seen a couple blocks from the store wearing jeans and a dark colored coat. They can stop and detain you and get your ID even if you didn't actually commit the crime while they are determining that because they have reasonable suspicion that you could have done it.

 

[dvcochran]

I am not white.

The Bill Of Rights protects us from tyranny. People are proving this everyday, holding LEO accountable. They swear an oath to the Constitution, to uphold it. If you are not committing a crime, and you are stopped, questioned and detained by the police, they are breaking their oath and that is a crime. The only way they can make you ID yourself is if you have committed an crime. By law, they have to articulate the crime. If they cannot, they are violating your rights, and breaking - dishonoring the oath they swore. The only risk is to them, if they follow through and arrest you using made up laws to entrap you. They are public servants. Their salaries, benefits and pensions come from us. They work for us and are accountable to us.

This is not an "anti cop" thing. It is the reality they try to blind us from, that they entrap us with made up laws. It is UN-American.

You are correct that they are a public servant.
On the rest of is you are incorrect.

Color has Nothing to do with any of this.

 

[Steve]

You are correct that they are a public servant.
On the rest of is you are incorrect.

Color has Nothing to do with any of this

Is that so? Just yesterday I read an article from Oakland about a group of current and former cops being disciplined for racist and misogynistic posts on Instagram. One was making fun of efforts to address excessive force.

You can easily find studies, articles, and anecdotes all highlighting individual and systemic racism in police departments all over the country.

or are you saying that race shouldn’t have anything to do with it? Because if you’re speaking aspirationally, I agree.

 

[drop bear]

Is that so? Just yesterday I read an article from Oakland about a group of current and former cops being disciplined for racist and misogynistic posts on Instagram. One was making fun of efforts to address excessive force.

You can easily find studies, articles, and anecdotes all highlighting individual and systemic racism in police departments all over the country.

or are you saying that race shouldn’t have anything to do with it? Because if you’re speaking aspirationally, I agree.

It's a feedback loop.