Bruno@MT
Senior Master
I know. There aren't that many.
But the few there are make a huge impact on public perception.
Police Fear 'War On Cops'
- Thread starter MJS
- Start date
I know. There aren't that many.
But the few there are make a huge impact on public perception.
Archangel M
Senior Master
Agreed. But "Acting" respectfull and actually having respect are not necessarily the same thing. I think that they are talking about how it was rare for people to mouth off to a cop or be "discourteous".
Of course maintaining civility through brutality is wrong, don't misunderstand me.
Empty Hands
Senior Master
I think there are some problems in perception that are leading to erroneous conclusions.
One, the thesis that desperate times lead to crime and murder just doesn't hold up. The crime rate, contrary to expectations, has not risen under the Great Recession, in fact it has continued the historic trend downwards.
Second, this thesis would hold more weight if random people without records were the ones taking shots at cops. However, from all the stories I have seen so far, the shooters were criminals with prior violent offenses. How can the effects of bad cops on TV or economic conditions compare with the influence of a previous life of crime? One that probably had a lot to do with inborn tendencies combining with environmental factors.
Third, the thought that cops are the cultural bad guys just didn't hold up. Yes, there are shows like The Shield or The Wire where the cops are seriously ethically challenged - and yet still considered heroes. However, there are dozens of shows currently on about cops that show cops in a good light, as honorable hero types. Castle, CSI (what are we up to now, 5?), NCIS, Bones, Numbers, etc. etc. etc. The cultural effect thing only holds up anyway if otherwise normal people decide to start gunning for the police - which just isn't happening.
As Bruno alluded to, this thesis also ignores our long history of anti-authority attitudes in some parts of the country. In times past, it was worth a federal officer's life to go to some places in the country. Our "no go" areas now are vanishingly small compared to what they used to be.
I still haven't seen anything that would lead me to believe this is anything other than a horrible coincidence.
One, the thesis that desperate times lead to crime and murder just doesn't hold up. The crime rate, contrary to expectations, has not risen under the Great Recession, in fact it has continued the historic trend downwards.
Second, this thesis would hold more weight if random people without records were the ones taking shots at cops. However, from all the stories I have seen so far, the shooters were criminals with prior violent offenses. How can the effects of bad cops on TV or economic conditions compare with the influence of a previous life of crime? One that probably had a lot to do with inborn tendencies combining with environmental factors.
Third, the thought that cops are the cultural bad guys just didn't hold up. Yes, there are shows like The Shield or The Wire where the cops are seriously ethically challenged - and yet still considered heroes. However, there are dozens of shows currently on about cops that show cops in a good light, as honorable hero types. Castle, CSI (what are we up to now, 5?), NCIS, Bones, Numbers, etc. etc. etc. The cultural effect thing only holds up anyway if otherwise normal people decide to start gunning for the police - which just isn't happening.
As Bruno alluded to, this thesis also ignores our long history of anti-authority attitudes in some parts of the country. In times past, it was worth a federal officer's life to go to some places in the country. Our "no go" areas now are vanishingly small compared to what they used to be.
I still haven't seen anything that would lead me to believe this is anything other than a horrible coincidence.
Archangel M
Senior Master
Good point. If there is a "war" on cops being waged it's because our courts and our parole/probation services are putting the "enemy" back out on the streets.
Good point Bruno. Regarding the respect...I have to wonder...if I had to take a guess, I'd be inclined to say that there probably was more respect back then, compared to today, and not because people feared getting an *** whooping, but probably because LE was viewed differently compared to the way it is today. Now, this isn't to say that there weren't corrupt cops back then, but I do not believe it was anything like to see today.
Archangel M
Senior Master
Theres a LOT more to the Eric Scott shooting than that web site. I don't know if this is the thread to get into it.
Yes, I've read various news reports and accounts of the shooting. I agree that this isn't the thread to get into all that.
punisher73
Senior Master
Just to show things on the other side of the coin. During my tenure working corrections (county jail level housing around 600), I obviously spoke with alot of criminals and many who had been in the system a VERY long time. Even they would comment on the "youngsters". To them it was it was almost, for lack of a better term, a game. They would commit the crimes, the police would try to catch them. If they tried to run or fight with the police they knew they would get beat down for their efforts. It wasn't personal, you didn't make threats to the cop's families. It was just the price of doing business.
Talking to the old timers, the young guys are soft nowadays. They are too scared and afraid to go to prison so they become violent to avoid going. They don't know how to fight with their hands and settle it mano y mano, now they pull out a gun to protect themselves.
Street gangs have always been very violent towards law enforcement, the only thing that has changed is how the gang culture is now acceptable in all walks of life. Don't believe it? Go to any mall and you will see tons of teenagers dressing like gangbangers, including many "flags" that if they were to walk into the wrong part would get them killed, and they have no idea of why they wear stuff like that. Now, ballcaps are sold in solid gang colors so you can root for your team and your gang at the same time! Don't believe that, why else would a Chicago White Sox hat be sold in all red, with the slogan, it's not just a hat it's a flag!" The advertisors know what they are doing. Or the NFL star who would only play for a team with red in it's colors so he wouldn't disrespect his gang?
Behavior that would have been looked down upon is now acceptable behavior in societies eyes. Even shows like "The Shield" have a dirty cop killing and stealing from people, and yet he is the "hero" because he does more good than harm, and is somehow excusable.
There are tons of factors that are creating this dilema for law enforcement across the country, it's not just one thing but a host of things culminating into what we see today.
I have cop stories, but not because of what I wanted them to do, but how they treated me and or violated my rights and thought it was ok because they had a badge.
There a lots of good police officers. I know some.
There a few bad cops and they may generate into a complete department acting bad as it is accepted by the others, but on the whole I would say more good then bad, but it only takes a few bad ones to make the public press and or the word of mouth network and more look bad then really are.
Yes, I have said this and posted it here. I did not think it was required, when I called the police for the ex-wife's boyfriend at my place threatening to kill me. When my lawyer told me there was nothing I could, I accepted it and moved on, and I do not remember posting the one without the other.
This has happened to me. Driving non-white in a white neighborhood.
Driving young.
Well, I cannot speak for others and usually do not, I speak for myself, and Yes I was beaten by the police, and no charges were brought against me, as they realized they had the wrong people. I never got an apology and yes I hold a grudge. As I would expect anyone who used gang mentality to hold a person while others took their turn. It is wrong.
PS: One of the guys who did this to me is in a very high position now in the local area.
True it is terrible.
Ticket, hmmm, I have been given tickets and gone straight to pay them and had the cashiers tell me to go see the Magistrate to fight it when I already have been given a break by the police officer. Wy fight that when the officer ticketed me for speeding but was also giving me a break. I accepted my fine and moved on.
Everytime I have been ticketed I have not had an issue with the police. It is the times they just are phishing and I end up getting violated that I have complained about.
I agree there are a lot of bad people out there who use the complaints to try to lesson their problems. I agree that the bad guys use the system to try to get off on technicalities.
I just hope that since Officers hold themselves above us common citizens, that they would maintain that above attitude and do the right thing all the time. But unfortunately only a few bad cops can make it look really bad for all the others.
See above, I admit my errors and take responibility to my actions. I just want the cops to do the same adn then maybe they will be police officers.
I agree, more bad guys than bad cops, but it only takes a few bad cops to interface with a lot of people to get the stories spreading.
Once the stories spread, the bad guys use this to try to get out of their problems they are not taking responibility for.
Many police agencies took the same stance as the Catholic church, of denying and having some internal reprimands and or moving police around. The Teachers unions did similar things and then laws were passed to allow background checks for the safety of the students.
If the police had done the public thing dealt with the bad press then and showed improvements, then many people would not have the issue they have.
Responibility is a two way street.
People and police both need to take responibility for their actions. The police here on this a couple of years ago seemed to take offense to anyone questioning them or bringing up a negative comment. The actions were cover up mentality or that is how it was perceived, along with a "gang" mentality of defending the others even if they were wrong.
After much discussion (heated) things changed a little as in this post by Archangel, he stated that it was possible for a bad apple. For a police officer to be wrong. This goes a long way towards allowing rational people to continue the discussion. For it has not been a continuation of the SOP of Cover up and deniability by the police individuals and organizations but an admission that there are some bad ones, and that they should not be allowed, yet, they can go on and quote more stats that show more bad guys than bad cops.
It's not. Interested parties are welcome to start another thread on it or on similar events (like the Fairfax County Police shooting of Salvatore Culosi).
Archangel M
Senior Master
No offense Rich. I don't know you and this is not directed at you. But many people SAY that they will be the first to admit when they were at fault. I have yet to see very many people who actually do.
Thing is. From your vantage point YOU may think that being cuffed was unnecessary, but that doesn't necessiarly meant that it's so. The same applies to quite a few things that police do. There are times when its necessary to be in control of a situation and when someone isnt co-operating...TAKE control. People don't take kindly to it (as is to be expected) and to soothe their sense of righteousness will try to turn it around on the cop. I have had my own relatives gripe to me about how they were treated by an officer when my relative was entirely in the wrong and the cop did what he was supposed to.
Minimizing ones culpability is human nature. As is deflecting blame or re-remembering things to make one feel in control.
As to the "its nice to see a cop say that cops can be bad" thing...I see that all over the place. I think every LEO here has said so on occasion. However I see a bit of "assumption" that what a cop did was unjustified aroundabouts too.
Thing is. From your vantage point YOU may think that being cuffed was unnecessary, but that doesn't necessiarly meant that it's so. The same applies to quite a few things that police do. There are times when its necessary to be in control of a situation and when someone isnt co-operating...TAKE control. People don't take kindly to it (as is to be expected) and to soothe their sense of righteousness will try to turn it around on the cop. I have had my own relatives gripe to me about how they were treated by an officer when my relative was entirely in the wrong and the cop did what he was supposed to.
Minimizing ones culpability is human nature. As is deflecting blame or re-remembering things to make one feel in control.
As to the "its nice to see a cop say that cops can be bad" thing...I see that all over the place. I think every LEO here has said so on occasion. However I see a bit of "assumption" that what a cop did was unjustified aroundabouts too.
Arch,
*Setting*
I have called 911 twice, and second time woman on the phone says she is going to send an officer tomorrow to charge me with making false claims on the phone, because any "MAN" would just take the boyfriend out. I then explain that he is there and that she is letting him into the house. I could not stop her from coming an going (yet). She then changed her tune to saying stop her. I asked how? I cannot touch her. I cannot stand in front of her preventing her from entering or leaving. She could press charges against me then. Hence why I called the police 5 minutes ago for assistancein dealing with a third party at my house at 11 PM on a Thursday night.
A single female officer shows up and I flag her down as she goes to drive by, as I have exited the house with a mobile phone (1998 - I did not have a cell yet) and was outside avoiding the two of them while they searched the house. I flagged the officer down and she pulled into the driveway. She got out and asked "Who are you?" - Me, "I called 911 for the police " She then said, Sit down. I sat down on the ground right where I was. She then pulled her gun and pointed it me and told me to stand. I did. The she told me to drop the phone. I did. She then told me to lift my jacket and turn around. I did. The ex and boyfriend stepped out of the house at this point. She saw them and smiled. Then she told me to sit. I did. Then she told me to stand. I did. Then she told me to come over to her and the police car. I did. All under gun point. She was nervous I could tell by the way her finger was on the trigger. I had been over 25 feet away when she was playing simon says with me. She then asked the ex who she was. The ex replied she was the my ex wife. The cop asked the ex if she ahd called the police. She said no. I said Ma'am I am the one that called.
At this point she got angry. She shoved the gun towards me and said up agains the car with your hands on the roof. I complied. She holstered the weapon, and then the palmed my wallet and found out I lived there. Then she checked me for weapons. I have been checked by bouncers and police before and after. She was the only who has ever done ridge hands to my testicles to check for a weapon. She then cuffed me and placed me into the back of the her car.
She goes and talks to my ex and her boyfriend. They say that he had just come over to help her fix her car.
The officer forgot to call in, and back up showed up. Three cars showed up one was a double so four more officers were there. As they were pulling in, she came back to her car, grabbed me by the hair and dragged me out, and took the cuffs off and then said get back into that vehicle.
If being in cuffs was wrong why did she have to remove them before the other officers say me in them?
If I was the bad guy why did she have to cover up that she had cuffed me?
I was not allowed to speak as they talked to the ex and the boyfriend. Then the sergeant asked me what was up. I explained and told him about it jsut as I did here.
She denied pulling her weapon or cuffing me.
If it was wrong why did she deny it?
The Sergeant then asked me to leave. I asked why, since I as the one who called and who lived there. He looked at me, and then ran my story through his mind again (* at least I assume so as he took a minute and was quiet, I assume he was thinking *). He then smiled and asked the ex, and she claimed to live there. I said the divorce had not preoceeded far enough to force separate addresses, but he ( the boyfriend does not tlive here, and if you want I can provide a copy on the ansering machine of him saying eh was coming over to kill me. ) did not belong here. The officer that is true.
I then asked for a police report. The responding officer said no.
I said I am offcially requesting. She said she was officially saying no.
I turned to the sergeant and said, I need your names for my lawyer as by law any domestic violence be it verbal or physical and the police are called a police report shall be issued upon request. (* This could be taken by some officers as being a problem person for quoting the law to them, I understand this. But I wanted my report so I coudl file for a PPO *). The Sergeant turned to the responding officer and said he (me) is correct, right him a report. She said ok, I will. They all left, including the ex.
The report was not finished in her next two shifts and then she had three days off and then she still did not complete it in three more shifts. I called my lawyer, and he he called the police department and aske if he needed to file a complaint against them and also request all the stats on how long it takes to get a report written.
I got the report in two days after that.
I went to file for my PPO.
I found out that I could not get a PPO as the ex file one against me. Which was even better as she had to list her address as somewhere else so now she coudl be there when I was not, but I was there I was in violation of the PPO, btu I could call the police and request them to come out and ask her to leave. You ask why would I know this. I had to do it enough times that a bunch of the officers signed a petition for the judge to allow me to have a PPO against her so they could arrest her. But that is not the point of this.
My point is that why did she the responding officer deny pulling her weapon and also cuffing me, when my lawyer who I am paying for me and other police officers told me that getting one person alone in a domestic is SOP and it was allowed. My whole point about this is that she is a bad cop. She was trying to cover things up versus just admit to them. She acted guilty which makes people think that she was guilty.
On a side note: Months later when by court order the ex was getting the rest of her stuff form the house on Super-Bowl Sunday, I had two friends there by court order to watch and document any damage she did. She was destroying things, so they called me. I called the police and went there. I staid off the property and met the police officer. I showed him my PPO against her (* she was still doding being served *) and hers against me. I explained the court order and provided a copy to the officer. He then when in and talked to my friends and her and her family. My friends came out. THe officer came out a few minutes later.
The officer explained to me that the court order was executionable by the court and the judge and the PPO was executed by the officer. I was in violation of the PPO by having my friends there as that is considered stalking by her. I told the officer I understood. I asked him if he could do me a favor. He looked at me and asked what? I said only arrest me as my friends did not have copies of the PPO nor the court order, and were there in good standing with me as a favor to me. The officer said, ok.
I thought he was a goodofficer. He was going to arrest me. I did not expect him to let me friends go, but I asked as the PPO was against me.
He then asked for my PPO against her. He then walked into the house. He served her. She started punching holes in the walls. He left. He told me there was nothing I could do to stop her from buring the house down, I had to get back into court first. I said thank you. I hadned my keys to my friends and walked over to his car and assumed the position. He asked me what I was doing? I said I assumed you need to check for weapons before you take me down to be processed. He smiled and said just leave and come back after she is suppsoed to be gone.
I did not expect to walk away from that. I was not mad at him for doing his job. I was not upset with him. I resigned to the process. I had done everything to avoid a situation to be put into jail for her and the divorce and I had made the mistake of thinking the court order was superior to the PPO. It is in court and as far as the judge is concerned but as far as the officer was concerned the PPO was the immediate order they could act upon.
The beating was younger and a much different story.
Bruno@MT
Senior Master
Related to Rich's story: it takes only 1 such event to cause a lifelong grudge or an eternal distrust of the police.
And there is also the dilemma of being the victim of such a thing. What can you do? There is noone to complain to except the police. Convenient for them. And even if you end up talking with IA, you can bet you're in trouble because if a small group of cops see no bones in beating you up, then they're probably not above retaliation either.
This is something that is guaranteed to breed resentment: being afraid, being harrassed or worse, and not being able to do anything about it. Kinda like being bullied in high school. Talking to the administrator will usually only make things worse because they'll talk to the bullies (who'll know you ratted them out) and their parents (who'll often think their little johnny wouldn't do that) and they'll be bullied even more the next day.
And there is also the dilemma of being the victim of such a thing. What can you do? There is noone to complain to except the police. Convenient for them. And even if you end up talking with IA, you can bet you're in trouble because if a small group of cops see no bones in beating you up, then they're probably not above retaliation either.
This is something that is guaranteed to breed resentment: being afraid, being harrassed or worse, and not being able to do anything about it. Kinda like being bullied in high school. Talking to the administrator will usually only make things worse because they'll talk to the bullies (who'll know you ratted them out) and their parents (who'll often think their little johnny wouldn't do that) and they'll be bullied even more the next day.
Archangel M
Senior Master
Ahhh..that "if I complain the cops will retaliate" thing...while probably true in some areas is another overblown "Shield" thing IMO. We have fired or suspended officers numerous times because of a complaint and an IA. Many times the "complaint", while justified simply isnt going to result in a termination. I have fielded complaints as varied as "the officer FOLLOWED me in his car, stopped me and then shined a FLASHLIGHT in my car without a warrant!!!...oh and he never read me my RIGHTS!! I want him FIRED!!"
Not to minimize how wrong "bad cops" can be. But I could trade complaints like that at least 2 for one to every "I was cuffed and I didn't like it" story.
Archangel M
Senior Master
And to be perfectly honest, there are probably a couple of cops we would enjoy getting some complaints on so we could have a valid foundation for discipline....
Bruno@MT
Senior Master
Yeah I can honestly believe that.
But I do know about being bullied in highschool and the options you have.
If you are not involved, it is probably easy enough to argue that legit complaints will end with a punishment of the bully without repercussions. But if you're the one being bullied and the chance of retaliation is real, it is a whole different outlook.
That was just what I wanted to point out: the feeling of helplessness and resentment if you're the victim.
Well not to give more date, but for almost a year I was always pulled over for crossing the line as I always drove 5 to 10 under to avoid being close to give them a reason to pull me over.
It was not until, I sent pictures (* yes I followed them *) to the then Chief, and told them to stop follow me (* I did not identify myself *) and said if I get pulled over ne more time for no reason I would send to the press.
Pictures of police while on duty going to girlfriends to party with alcohol or weed they had gotten from a stop earlier in the night. Some of them had wives and party girlfriends as well. After this I do have to say it cleaned up some. But all complaints before were treated just like I am here.
There are more people who cry wolf then there are bad cops.
You are young, are we to trust you over a police officer? (* who might have been my age *)
You had to do something wrong to get pulled over in the first place. It has to be your fault.
Well if there are bad cops, and they pull people over to beat them up for being non white or they pull them over in hopes of getting something off of them to "party" on later and they do not find something they make something up. Complaints against these guys in towns the size of 5k to 15k do not have large IA departments, they are lucky to have a detective to look into these things. Not everyone lives in the area of a large police department. It might be a suburb. So my point is that it goes a real long way for the Police community to admit there are bad cops, to not close ranks and tell us those assaulted that we were wrong or made a mistake for driving while being non white.
To that I say go home white people, and give this country back to the Native American Indians. I know that will never happen, so I hope that the police community can be mature enough as a group to admit that there are some. Listen to the complaints, and ask yourself, why would an A / B Student who worked and helped get his younger brother through high school as mother died of cancer, make this stuff up?
I am not a victum, I do not assume it was my fault and that it will always happen and draw them in for more.
I do not flip off the police, I do not insult them, I say sir, (* and this causes many of them to get upset fo rthey think it is an insult when it is not *) and I tell them what happened.
But if the community steps back and says hey there are bad cops out there we need to stand up and say so and say we will not tolerate them and not wait for complaints that may not come for fear of retaliation and write the complaint yourself, and the Union be danged. Integrity is integrity, does the police community have it? Yes or no?
That being said, what has been happening is WRONG!
No one should be shot just because. No one should loos a husband/wife or parent or child because they are police officer. These actions are wrong and should be stopped. How I do not know, but I think the part of the anger at the community could be addressed with what I am saying here. Admit there are bad guys, do not insult people by telling them no disrespect but you are wrong because I know of this case where this guy complained to get out of trouble. From a logical stand point that arguement is invalid by your own points.
Now I am not saying baby those who make comments. Just acknowledge them. Do not insult them no matter how much you want to defend the brotherhood as you are a part of it, by telling them is was their fault and that it was not the police officer's fault.
Provide positive stories, and ask for them (* which was done here, most people do not have positive stories with police but there are some *).
A war on cops should be tolerated by the population of this country.
A war by the police on the population should not be tolerated, and the police believe they are not, but it sometimes feels like that when you close ranks and defend the bad guys and accuse those who are not in the brotherhood.
With respect gentlemen, I do not write this to make you mad. I do not write this to be insulting or trying to start a fight. I write this to say, here is my opinion, and here is how I think you can help. Many times the issue is identified form the outside, but it takes the people on the inside to implement the change(s).
I'm wondering if these are copycat crimes.
The rise in internet communication has also spawned a rise communication from individuals that are very much pro-LE. I have been a part of a forum for translators and other bilingual folks for a long time since my native language is English but I also speak Spanish. I help folks whose native language is Spanish but they also speak English, and in return they help me. One can be quite fluent in another language, but still be unsure of regionalisms, colloquialisms, expressions, etc.
Within the past 2 or so years, there have been a few native Spanish speakers that have asked for help in translating a phrase such as "He is a staunch supporter of law enforcement." This is a fairly recent phrase in our lexicon.
For better or worse, I believe the media has picked up on this sentiment and has discovered that it sells copy quite well. As such, stories that in the past might not have been covered outside the local news market or certain LE circles are now being stories that are talked about throughout the country. I was married at a church in Woburn, Mass. in 1996. Had that been the year that Officer Jack Maguire was shot, I'm not sure many folks would have known about it. However, the events happened in 2010, and has been talked about around the country.
Wiki says:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copycat_crimes
in reference to:
http://cad.sagepub.com/content/48/1/46.abstract
That certainly seems to fit Archangel's thread here, complete with his comment that as usual, the perp had a violent history.
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=93030
To my untrained eyes, copycats seem to be the most consistent explanation....but this isn't my field of expertise.
The rise in internet communication has also spawned a rise communication from individuals that are very much pro-LE. I have been a part of a forum for translators and other bilingual folks for a long time since my native language is English but I also speak Spanish. I help folks whose native language is Spanish but they also speak English, and in return they help me. One can be quite fluent in another language, but still be unsure of regionalisms, colloquialisms, expressions, etc.
Within the past 2 or so years, there have been a few native Spanish speakers that have asked for help in translating a phrase such as "He is a staunch supporter of law enforcement." This is a fairly recent phrase in our lexicon.
For better or worse, I believe the media has picked up on this sentiment and has discovered that it sells copy quite well. As such, stories that in the past might not have been covered outside the local news market or certain LE circles are now being stories that are talked about throughout the country. I was married at a church in Woburn, Mass. in 1996. Had that been the year that Officer Jack Maguire was shot, I'm not sure many folks would have known about it. However, the events happened in 2010, and has been talked about around the country.
Wiki says:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copycat_crimes
in reference to:
http://cad.sagepub.com/content/48/1/46.abstract
That certainly seems to fit Archangel's thread here, complete with his comment that as usual, the perp had a violent history.
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=93030
To my untrained eyes, copycats seem to be the most consistent explanation....but this isn't my field of expertise.
