What the Democrats really think of the troops

[jazkiljok]

1)next generation of leaders: yep!
2) all democrats: nope! Go poll the military. they overwhelmingly vote Republican. Wonder why Gore was desperate to not get the overseas military vote in Florida counted? He knows the statistics.
3) better than Kerry? Hard to be much worse, at least IMHO.

you need to read the link i posted. here's another. and i don't disagree with you about the majority of the military being more conservative but we're speaking of leaders and leaders are not necessarily born of majority opinions.

Besides, the military represents a large population-- even 1/3 who profess more democratic leaning, represents hundreds of thousands of folks.

Kerry just can't connect with people in general- most in the last election voted the ticket, not the man.



http://www.fighting-dems.com/

 

[crushing]

Be that as it may, the veterans returning from Iraq that are running for office have almost universally run as Democrats.

That tells us something, I think.

I think it's a good idea for the Democratic Party to recruit and run veterans for office. It helps dispell the perception that the Democratics don't necessarily understand the military or out of touch with the troops.

This article is from a year ago, so I don't know if the same people are still running, plus primaries change things.

http://www.motherjones.com/news/update/2005/10/iraq_vets_running_for_congress.html

 

[mrhnau]

Be that as it may, the veterans returning from Iraq that are running for office have almost universally run as Democrats.

That tells us something, I think.

Could be telling us something... here are a few possibilities

1) Republicans might have a stronger tendancy to stay in the military, while democrats that are fed up with the war might be more willing to come home and leave the military

2) the democrats may be actively recruiting ex-military to try to make a stronger statement about defense (any idea if active recruitment is happening?). Dems in the military may be so upset about thigns that they are willing to run, while Reps are not as upset, so not seeing a desperate desire to get into politics.

3) republicans in the military may be content with those republicans in office, therefor show no strong desire for administrations to change. democrats in the military may think they would have a better shot at getting office than other democratic candidates

anyways, just a couple of possibilities.

 

[jazkiljok]

Could be telling us something... here are a few possibilities

1) Republicans might have a stronger tendancy to stay in the military, while democrats that are fed up with the war might be more willing to come home and leave the military

2) the democrats may be actively recruiting ex-military to try to make a stronger statement about defense (any idea if active recruitment is happening?). Dems in the military may be so upset about thigns that they are willing to run, while Reps are not as upset, so not seeing a desperate desire to get into politics.

3) republicans in the military may be content with those republicans in office, therefor show no strong desire for administrations to change. democrats in the military may think they would have a better shot at getting office than other democratic candidates

anyways, just a couple of possibilities.

well, the problem is that everyone is pro war on terror, not everyone is willing to say the same about iraq. conservative generals beleive it was a cluster**** caused by inept politicians, who all happened to be Republicans. you know they prefer change of politicians if not party (but Gen. Clark did change sides he was so ticked off.)

Keep in mind you didn't see any conservative (dem or repub) singing their pro-war praises by the late 60s. Just bad politics. Nixon himself came in with the secret peace plan.

and who knows, a fiscal conservative war vet with conservative social values but a rage against the incompetent bush/cheney/rumsfeld/hastert/ regime could have opportunity to seize the party in some near future scenario. kick out the bozos, bring back true goldwalter/reagan vision.

what is odd is that the military votes republican yet republicans do absolutely nothing for them after they get home from war. social care is all democrat territory and republicans could careless about "entitlements."

 

[Makalakumu]

Stupid Soldiers: Central to the Left's Worldview

The military doesn't just accept everyone. In many ways, they are like a private school. The overall trends are not representative and are the product of artificial selection.

Its also a convenient way for the typical "non-military" college graduate liberal to feel better about himself for never having served. "Hey I was smarter than those dopes". While deep down I believe he feels less of a man for having not done so.

Considering that I make twice as much, have better benefits, can actually raise my kids, and don't have to get shot at for stupid causes that have nothing to do with "protecting America" and everything to do with lining the pockets of the elite, this liberal feels no shame for his decision.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

Whatever you have to tell yourself dude.

 

[Makalakumu]

Whatever you have to tell yourself dude.

Let me tell you a story...

When I was 15 years old, I told my grandfather that I wanted to join the army and be a soldier. I was in the Boy Scouts. I was a member of the Sons of the American Legion. I volunteered at the VFW. I did all of this because so many in my family are veterans and because these organizations were fun.

Anyway, my grandfather didn't say much when I told him this. Instead, I loaded me up into his pick-up and we drove down the dusty road to the VA hospital. There, I got to see just how much people in this country care about the troops. Men of all ages were confined there. They had all sorts of injuries from missing limbs, to brain damage, to PTSD, etc...and my grandfather seemed to know everyone.

The general pallor of the place was a hopeless green that did little to hide the overall misery of the place.

Together, we sat down at a table in the lunchroom. A few of my grandfather's friends were there playing cribbage. My grandfather explained to them what I told him and they all smiled patiently at me. Then my grandfather explained to them how smart I was, how well I did in school, and he told his friends how proud he was of me.

"Look around, son," one man told me, "you don't need this. You have a better life ahead."

I took that advice.

The bottom line is this...the military is just another job. There is nothing special about it other then the fact that you can be blown up for stupid things that have nothing to do with protecting this country...like Iraq. And then there is the special fact that you can come home alive and in peices and be totally forgotten, even to the point of having your benefits cut by the very people who sent you to be blown to bits.

One of my grandfather's friends was partially blinded by a hand grenade in Italy. He lived below the povery level on a fixed income and he waited THREE YEARS for a pair of eyeglasses.

I took the advice of the old men who had been there and done that. And gosh darn it if they weren't right.

Anyway, so what the heck did John Kerry say again?

 

[Blotan Hunka]

The man who does nothing cuts the same sordid figure in the pages of history, whether he be a cynic, or fop, or voluptuary. There is little use for the being whose tepid soul knows nothing of great and generous emotion, of the high pride, the stern belief, the lofty enthusiasm, of the men who quell the storm and ride the thunder. Well for these men if they succeed; well also, though not so well, if they fail, given only that they have nobly ventured, and have put forth all their heart and strength.

It is war-worn Hotspur, spent with hard fighting, he of the many errors and valiant end, over whose memory we love to linger, not over the memory of the young lord who "but for the vile guns would have been a valiant soldier."

"CITIZENSHIP IN A REPUBLIC"
Speech at the Sorbonne
Paris, France
April 23, 1910
Theodore Roosevelt
26th President of the United States

 

[Makalakumu]

"CITIZENSHIP IN A REPUBLIC"
Speech at the Sorbonne
Paris, France
April 23, 1910
Theodore Roosevelt
26th President of the United States

BH

I hate to take this to a personal level, but who says I do nothing. And why assume that soldiers actually do anything for society?

In fact, I would argue that the purpose of a standing professional army is conquest.

 

[Don Roley]

BH

I hate to take this to a personal level, but who says I do nothing. And why assume that soldiers actually do anything for society?

In fact, I would argue that the purpose of a standing professional army is conquest.

Wow!

Soldiers do nothing for society? They join knowing that the purpose of a standing army is conquest?

Let me be blunt. You have never served. You have never been part of the thin line between the barbarians and your children sleeping the rest of the innocent.

I read your story about your grandfather. You fail to understand how people think and how they would react.

I have done many, many stupid things in my life. When my children ask me what to do, I will tell them my mistakes and advise them not to repeat them.

I joined the military. I went for infantry. My father, who served in WWII, tried to get me to either stay out or go for something other than 11 bang bang. I guess I was just stubborn. Years later, I see that he was right in saying that my skills were better served elsewhere. As it turned out, I spent more time in the S2 section than a foxhole. But I do take a certain amount of pride in putting myself in harms way when given the chance.

And I respect those that have had to experience what I have not. I remember that on September 11th 2001 (Japan time) I drove home from class and saw the rescue folks setting up alongside the Tone river. We had just had a typhoon go through and they were going to spend all night preparing for the possibility of the river overflowing. I thought to myself that they would spend the night wide awake so that me and my family could sleep safely. And I gave a little prayer of thanks as I crossed the bridge. Of course, as I was taking a late dinner the news from America came through and I did not get much sleep.

So I think you should look at the way you have belittled the contributions that others have choosen to go through to realize just how they react to you. Not one person I know of in any country I have been in thinks that they joined their countries' military to conquer other countries. And some of the Japanese guys I have met were most certainly part of an army of conquest and not defense. But they did not think that. They were led by their leaders into thinking that they were defending something vital, something worth laying down their life for. Even the scum bags in al queada think that they are defending the word of God.

Think about that when you say that the purpose of an army is conquest and that there are much better ways to live your life. You have never made the choice to put yourself between a bullet and a child. Every person I served with thought that they were there to die if needed in order to keep someone else from taking the same bullet. They made the choice to die if needed. They do not look at your choice to take a salary and teach kids in the same light.

So your grandfather was quite correct in saying what he did from his perspective. But from someone who has made a choice to sacrifice his life if needed, your looking down on him does not go over well. You saying that you do something for society pales in comparison to that. And hey, I am a teacher just like you. As someone who has been a soldier as well as someone who teaches kids, I can say that your talking about how you do something for others kind of is not quite in the same level as a soldier who knows they may be asked to die so that others may live.

Think about that and understand how you sound.

 

[mrhnau]

BH
I hate to take this to a personal level, but who says I do nothing. And why assume that soldiers actually do anything for society?

In fact, I would argue that the purpose of a standing professional army is conquest.

The bottom line is this...the military is just another job. There is nothing special about it other then the fact that you can be blown up for stupid things that have nothing to do with protecting this country...like Iraq. And then there is the special fact that you can come home alive and in peices and be totally forgotten, even to the point of having your benefits cut by the very people who sent you to be blown to bits.

Perhaps this is what Democrats really think of troops? Being a soldier is not just another job. Your average McD's worker, or manager of the local Walmart is not daily putting their life in danger to protect your life and insure your future. Previous generations have not died in vain, nor has their sacrifice been "ordinary". My grandfather, a POW and double amputee did not spend years in Europe and not see my dad for the first two years of his life for "just another job". He did it to secure his future, to ensure that our country is going to survive in the manner he wanted it to. Most of the people in Iraq are thinking along the same lines. As I posted earlier, most of those that think opposite have already left (been 4+ years since 9/11).

I think Dems have a hard time believing there is evil in the world other than Republicans. Maybe this is the root of the issue here...

For Don and Blotan, respect :asian:

 

[Makalakumu]

Wow!

Soldiers do nothing for society? They join knowing that the purpose of a standing army is conquest?

Let me be blunt. You have never served. You have never been part of the thin line between the barbarians and your children sleeping the rest of the innocent.

I read your story about your grandfather. You fail to understand how people think and how they would react.

I have done many, many stupid things in my life. When my children ask me what to do, I will tell them my mistakes and advise them not to repeat them.

I joined the military. I went for infantry. My father, who served in WWII, tried to get me to either stay out or go for something other than 11 bang bang. I guess I was just stubborn. Years later, I see that he was right in saying that my skills were better served elsewhere. As it turned out, I spent more time in the S2 section than a foxhole. But I do take a certain amount of pride in putting myself in harms way when given the chance.

And I respect those that have had to experience what I have not. I remember that on September 11th 2001 (Japan time) I drove home from class and saw the rescue folks setting up alongside the Tone river. We had just had a typhoon go through and they were going to spend all night preparing for the possibility of the river overflowing. I thought to myself that they would spend the night wide awake so that me and my family could sleep safely. And I gave a little prayer of thanks as I crossed the bridge. Of course, as I was taking a late dinner the news from America came through and I did not get much sleep.

So I think you should look at the way you have belittled the contributions that others have choosen to go through to realize just how they react to you. Not one person I know of in any country I have been in thinks that they joined their countries' military to conquer other countries. And some of the Japanese guys I have met were most certainly part of an army of conquest and not defense. But they did not think that. They were led by their leaders into thinking that they were defending something vital, something worth laying down their life for. Even the scum bags in al queada think that they are defending the word of God.

Think about that when you say that the purpose of an army is conquest and that there are much better ways to live your life. You have never made the choice to put yourself between a bullet and a child. Every person I served with thought that they were there to die if needed in order to keep someone else from taking the same bullet. They made the choice to die if needed. They do not look at your choice to take a salary and teach kids in the same light.

So your grandfather was quite correct in saying what he did from his perspective. But from someone who has made a choice to sacrifice his life if needed, your looking down on him does not go over well. You saying that you do something for society pales in comparison to that. And hey, I am a teacher just like you. As someone who has been a soldier as well as someone who teaches kids, I can say that your talking about how you do something for others kind of is not quite in the same level as a soldier who knows they may be asked to die so that others may live.

Think about that and understand how you sound.

Don, while I believe that by joining the military, you did put yourself in harms way, but I do not think that it had much to do with protecting America. In fact, I would say that the Average LEO does far more then any soldier in that regard.

I know that people who have served have had it drummed into their heads that they are serving some larger purpose, but IMHO, I do not believe that it is the purpose in which they believe. You talked about this very thing in your post right here...

And some of the Japanese guys I have met were most certainly part of an army of conquest and not defense. But they did not think that. They were led by their leaders into thinking that they were defending something vital, something worth laying down their life for.

The bottom line is this...every standing professional army ever created, throughout all history, was used for conquest. Soldiers that were used for the defense of countries were more like our modern day national gaurd or they were mostly conscripts.

I don't think that this opinion belittles anyone, although, I can see why people who have served would find it upsetting. I will not, however, give a soldier anymore respect then anyone else for choosing to do what they did, nor will I buy into the myth that they are ultimately protecting America through their actions. I realize there are some exceptions, but overall, its a myth.

IMHO, the soldiers that are fighting and dying in Iraq are being misled. They signed up for one thing, like you did, with good intentions and ended up doing something far different from that intention. And that, in my mind, is truly tragic, because I hate seeing the young lives and youthful idealism and the will to help people go to waste.

upnorthkyosa

 

[Don Roley]

The bottom line is this...every standing professional army ever created, throughout all history, was used for conquest.

And if you consider yourself a typical member of the opposition, then we have a good idea into the mentality of them.

But some of us think that our soldiers are there to defend us. And we look at ideas such as yours about the military and conclude that if people like you are in power you will rip away those that we believe will defend us from people that hate us for worshiping the wrong god.

Sometimes we need that thin line between us and the barbarians. But when I look at the mentality behind what you wrote above about every professional army being used for conquest, then I have to conclude that people that think like you would take apart our proffesional army in the hope that North Korea, Iran and Osama Bin Laden will decide to be nice to us. I don't think they will and so I THINK your mentality is a direct danger to my children.

 

[Makalakumu]

Perhaps this is what Democrats really think of troops?

I'll only speak for myself.

Being a soldier is not just another job. Your average McD's worker, or manager of the local Walmart is not daily putting their life in danger to protect your life and insure your future.

A soldier who is part of an all volunteer professional army is not protecting America. They are enforcing American hegemony...and that is it.

Previous generations have not died in vain, nor has their sacrifice been "ordinary". My grandfather, a POW and double amputee did not spend years in Europe and not see my dad for the first two years of his life for "just another job". He did it to secure his future, to ensure that our country is going to survive in the manner he wanted it to.

Both of my grandfathers served in WWII. One of them stormed the beaches of Normandy and ended up in Berlin. The other was forced fought in Buna and ended up on Guadelcanal. Both of these men and your grandfather protected America from outside threats, but they are unlike the soldiers of today. Most of these guys were conscripts, or they volunteered for this duty when the threat arrived. They were not part of a standing professional army scattered across the globe draining away our national wealth.

Most of the people in Iraq are thinking along the same lines. As I posted earlier, most of those that think opposite have already left (been 4+ years since 9/11).

I realize that they may think that they are serving in ways similar to our grandfathers, but I do not believe that they are. The truth is that they are part of a standing army that is attempting to politically reshape the middle east for our national interest...and that interest has very little to do with protecting this country.

I think Dems have a hard time believing there is evil in the world other than Republicans. Maybe this is the root of the issue here.

I won't speak for other democrats, but I will speak for myself. Evil is in the eye of the beholder and is most often just an excuse. All we need to protect this country is the national guard, the air national gaurd and the coast guard. And, if I had my way, I would disband everything else.

How is that for a tax cut?

 

[Makalakumu]

And if you consider yourself a typical member of the opposition, then we have a good idea into the mentality of them.

Most democrats do not believe this. This is why I do not consider myself to be a democrat. These are my beliefs and my beliefs alone.

But some of us think that our soldiers are there to defend us. And we look at ideas such as yours about the military and conclude that if people like you are in power you will rip away those that we believe will defend us from people that hate us for worshiping the wrong god.

Sigh.

Muslim extremists are not fighting us because we worship the wrong God. Most, in fact, know that we actually worship the same God. Anyway, instead of listening to the propaganda, why not ask a muslim and find out why they hate us?

As far as what I would do if my opinions were more popular...

If I were in power, I would disband the professional army and rely on the national guard and the coast guard to protect this country. Then, I would give most of the tax money we used to pay for those things back to the people...keeping back a small fraction for things that would make a difference for most Americans - education, health care, good infrastructure, etc.

I would also use some of that money to craft a self sufficient energy policy for the US. In the long run, this would do more to protect our country from extremists then anything the soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan are doing.

Sometimes we need that thin line between us and the barbarians.

I take exception to words like barbarian. They are ultimately rooted in hatred. And, ultimately, they are part of an easily manipulated black/white moral system.

You may think that you do as much as they do. But you have never made a conscious choice to put yourself between a bullet and a innocents life.

How do you know? And why do you believe that you did?

Every person I know in the military thinks about that before they sign the papers. From where I sit as someone who does the same job you do and has also signed those papers, you seem to be trying to justify not taking a hard choice and putting down those that did.

This is a common attitude for people who have served in the professional army and it is my belief that it is a myth. I do not believe that soldiers serving in a professional army have anything to do with protecting America. It is my belief that they are putting themselves in harms way for the sole purpose of enforcing American hegemony.

From where I sit as someone who does the same job as you and as someone who decided not to be a soldier, I am content. Being a soldier in a professional standing army is not something is not something I considered to be a worthwhile use of my life.

You can choose to believe what you wish, but this is what I believe and I do not think that it belittles or "looks down upon" anyone just because our beliefs happen to be different.

 

[mrhnau]

A soldier who is part of an all volunteer professional army is not protecting America. They are enforcing American hegemony...and that is it.

In part, I will agree. I do believe a standing army is required for defense. As the last remaining super power in the world, we do assert alot of influence. The UN is a powerless body, so most of the world turns to us if things are really needed. Not just war, but relief in emergencies, support, money, etc...

Both of my grandfathers served in WWII. One of them stormed the beaches of Normandy and ended up in Berlin. The other was forced fought in Buna and ended up on Guadelcanal. Both of these men and your grandfather protected America from outside threats, but they are unlike the soldiers of today. Most of these guys were conscripts, or they volunteered for this duty when the threat arrived. They were not part of a standing professional army scattered across the globe draining away our national wealth.

Both of my grandfathers actually. The amputee was 2nd day Normandy. Got liberated by Patton... neat stuff

Do you not think the threat has arrived? At what point do you think a threat arrives? The enemy has changed, from driving tanks and planes to a more mobile, agile enemy. Still an enemy though.

We are not the only nation with a standing army. We did not have much of one before WW2, and our complaicancy cost us. Took a while to get the war engine moving. As we are in a state of war, there is no excuse to call for the armed forces standing down.

I realize that they may think that they are serving in ways similar to our grandfathers, but I do not believe that they are. The truth is that they are part of a standing army that is attempting to politically reshape the middle east for our national interest...and that interest has very little to do with protecting this country.

your opinion. I see things drastically different, as do many of those serving in our armed forces.

I won't speak for other democrats, but I will speak for myself. Evil is in the eye of the beholder and is most often just an excuse. All we need to protect this country is the national guard, the air national gaurd and the coast guard. And, if I had my way, I would disband everything else.

How is that for a tax cut?

again, your opinion... Isolationism is not going to work in this world, at least not any more. Doing this is effectively isolating ourselves, and admitting we are no longer a super-power. Personally, I'm not ashamed that we are.

tax cut? there are other forms I'd like to see tax cuts take... thats for another thread though. I'd not like to see that as an excuse for dismanteling our armed forces...

 

[michaeledward]

The United Nations is not a powerless body. The United Nations is not a fighting force. It was never intended to be a fighting force. It was meant to be a deliberative body to resolve conflicts among nations through negotiations.

Too many of our fellow citizens are unaware of the roll the United Nations plays in the world. They are a convienent scapegoat for 'isolationists'.

 

[mrhnau]

The United Nations is not a powerless body. The United Nations is not a fighting force. It was never intended to be a fighting force. It was meant to be a deliberative body to resolve conflicts among nations through negotiations.

Too many of our fellow citizens are unaware of the roll the United Nations plays in the world. They are a convienent scapegoat for 'isolationists'.

The resolutions they issue are powerless. If negotiations fail, there is no real means through which to enforce their mandates. All they can really do is sit around and claim "Bad country! Bad!".

Having countries with veto powers ensure that if you are friendly with one of those countries that no serious harm will befall you. Its a system in dire need of repair, if it should survive at all.

 

[Makalakumu]

In part, I will agree. I do believe a standing army is required for defense. As the last remaining super power in the world, we do assert alot of influence. The UN is a powerless body, so most of the world turns to us if things are really needed. Not just war, but relief in emergencies, support, money, etc...

Michael addressed some of the points that I would make regarding the UN. As far as the thought regarding the US and its role in the world, however, let me ask you this...Do you think that it is fair for the US taxpayer to subsidize all of these other tasks and assume the responsibility from all of these other countries? In my opinion, I would rather pull back and let others share the burden of being a world citizen.

Both of my grandfathers actually. The amputee was 2nd day Normandy. Got liberated by Patton... neat stuff

Nasty stuff, actually. I feel sad that they were forced to make that sacrifice.

Do you not think the threat has arrived? At what point do you think a threat arrives? The enemy has changed, from driving tanks and planes to a more mobile, agile enemy. Still an enemy though.

I believe that the current "threat" is largely self-inflicted. I believe that the best solution is political and not martial. I think that we can largely diffuse the anger against our country by changing what we are doing at home.

I do not believe the current war in Iraq or in Afghanistan is going to ultimately protect our country. I do not believe that either of those military actions were designed to protect this country. I think that the "War on Terror" is actually a war to maintain or hegemony throughout the world and I would vote for any candidate that would extract us from this mess as quickly as possible.

We are not the only nation with a standing army. We did not have much of one before WW2, and our complaicancy cost us. Took a while to get the war engine moving. As we are in a state of war, there is no excuse to call for the armed forces standing down.

Take a look at this...

http://www.truemajority.org/oreos/

Ben is thinking much how I think, but I would go much further. I think that cutting military spending down to levels that are competitive with other countries is entirely appropriate. We lose so much be having the priorities that we do.

Take a look at my signature.

your opinion. I see things drastically different, as do many of those serving in our armed forces.

These are just my informed opinions and I realize that they are unpopular. I think that I can safely say that everything that I am saying right now will never actually become reality in this country.

again, your opinion... Isolationism is not going to work in this world, at least not any more. Doing this is effectively isolating ourselves, and admitting we are no longer a super-power. Personally, I'm not ashamed that we are.

There are many ways to reach out to the rest of our global citizens. It bothers me that our country is only really prepared to do so militarily. I would change that if I could.

tax cut? there are other forms I'd like to see tax cuts take... thats for another thread though. I'd not like to see that as an excuse for dismanteling our armed forces...

IMHO, disbanding the professional standing army would probably be the type of tax cut that would make the most difference in our lives. I view it as a drain on our national wealth and a grand mis-allocation of our resources.

We could do so much better, IMHO.

 

[Makalakumu]

The resolutions they issue are powerless. If negotiations fail, there is no real means through which to enforce their mandates. All they can really do is sit around and claim "Bad country! Bad!"

Again, why shouldn't other countries be required to share the burden of being the global cop?

I don't think its fair and I think that most of the world resents the fact that have positioned our country as such.