What the Democrats really think of the troops

[Don Roley]

FDR stopped catastrophic tectonic plate shifts?

Thanks. I can always tell when someone makes a great point that the other side can't deal with by the way they try extreme distortions of the original post to try to get some sort of witty comment off. I can't remember any of my posts being so well written that someone had to go to that extreme to try to make light of it, but now one has.

And I noticed this clip on Youtube and thought about this thread. I hope everyone takes it in the spirit I offer it in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7phct3aKuFQ&mode=related&search=

 

[Marginal]

Thanks. I can always tell when someone makes a great point that the other side can't deal with by the way they try extreme distortions of the original post to try to get some sort of witty comment off. I can't remember any of my posts being so well written that someone had to go to that extreme to try to make light of it, but now one has.

The rest of my post must've been impossible to refute, so you avoided it entirely with this wit instead by that logic.

 

[Makalakumu]

And can you imagine what the world map would look like now if you were president back in the late 30s and early 40s?!?!

We don't live in the 30s and 40s. Times are quite different from then.

Well, there are bad men out there. They will not go away if you look the other way and if enough nations go down instead of standing together against these modern barbarians, then when they come for us there will be no one else to stop them.

600,000 people have died because of our actions in Iraq.

Some folks think we need to be liberated from our economic system for the greater good. Others think that we need to be liberated from conspiracies involving jews and need to get back in the good graces of Allah. Yet others look back on ages when they were the center of their known world and everyone bowed to them with nostaligia. Whatever the reason, someone somewhere will start moves against other nations and if they win, they will go on getting stronger and keep on conquering other nations.

Who will protect the world from US?

And you expect to let this all go on and stop them when they finally get to our shores?

We live in a changed world. The military we have created is a large and bloated dinosaur of yesteryear. IT has been a determining factor in our foreign policy...in that since we have it, we think we can do what we want. This has destroyed our standing as global citizens and has ultimately made us one of the more despised nations worldwide.

In this new type of world, this image will matter more then anything else in the future.

 

[Makalakumu]

you will find a photo of me in uniform on patrol with the U.S. Coast Guard. I volunteered after 9/11 and served four years as a volunteer. I love the Coast Guard and everything it stands for. However; I recognize that it is NOT designed to stand up against a modern professional Navy in open warfare - not EVEN in Coastal Defense.

The Coast Guard would have to be retrofitted for this new task. So would the National Guard and the Air National Guard. The bottom line is that I would slash military spending so that it was competitive with what other countries at the top were spending. We would use our military for what most other countries use their martial abilities. And we would play on equal footing as global citizens.

 

[Don Roley]

We don't live in the 30s and 40s. Times are quite different from then.

What I said was as applicable to our time as any other. You can go back to Genghis Khan and his dynasty. You can go back even farther to Alexander the Great. You can go even further back to the ancient Chinese. Some groups will keep on taking over other countries until they are stopped. And each country they digest can help feed them and prepare them for the next conquest.

So we can either all hang together and have military alliences with countries like Japan and Europe as well as others, or we can sit by while someone at sometime carves up the rest of the world and then gets ready to take us out. That is one reason we have troops here in Japan rather than let the Chinese and North Koreans call the shots in Asia. For that we need a standing military and not a beefed up border patrol.

Oh, and Marginal, the rest of your post was not on topic and not worth dealing with the thread drift to bother with.

 

[Marginal]

Oh, and Marginal, the rest of your post was not on topic and not worth dealing with the thread drift to bother with.

Uh huh...

I just never saw an anti facist saying misappropriated so wildly with no intended irony before.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

And can you imagine what the world map would look like now if you were president back in the late 30s and early 40s?!?!

There is a quote that is currently back in vouge where the guy talks about when they came for various groups he did nothing because he was not part of those groups. It ends with the comment that when they came for him, there was no one left to stop them.

The lesson of course is that if you look the other way when bad men do evil things to others, then they will not stop and someday you may be the victim. Another way of putting it that we can either all hang together, or all hang seperatly.

It amazes me that people can use this logic when we talk about giving extra scrutiny to young arabs in airports, but not to international relationships. Instead the alliences we make are portrayed as efforts at hedgemoney and are refered to as "entageling alliances."

Well, there are bad men out there. They will not go away if you look the other way and if enough nations go down instead of standing together against these modern barbarians, then when they come for us there will be no one else to stop them.

Some folks think we need to be liberated from our economic system for the greater good. Others think that we need to be liberated from conspiracies involving jews and need to get back in the good graces of Allah. Yet others look back on ages when they were the center of their known world and everyone bowed to them with nostaligia. Whatever the reason, someone somewhere will start moves against other nations and if they win, they will go on getting stronger and keep on conquering other nations.

And you expect to let this all go on and stop them when they finally get to our shores?

When they came for the Japanese, we did not help because we were not Japanese.
When they came for the Isrealis, we did nothing because we were not Isreali.
When they came for the Armenians, we did nothing because we were not Armenain.

And when they came for us, there was no one left to stop them.

Kudos. Thank god some people here are NOT calling the shots out there. They really give meaning to this threads title. Ive met and know people who fought in WWII. It was NOT that long ago and can absolutely happen again. I hope we never unlearn how close we came to the brink in the 1940's.

 

[Makalakumu]

Kudos. Thank god some people here are NOT calling the shots out there. They really give meaning to this threads title. Ive met and know people who fought in WWII. It was NOT that long ago and can absolutely happen again. I hope we never unlearn how close we came to the brink in the 1940's.

This is nothing but the conservative penchent for living in the past. The times have absolutely changed. Our defense capabilities are so far beyond what they were in 1940, that any comparison is ludicrous. We will NEVER have a world war like we did in the early part of this century for the simple fact that any power that we would fight has the Bomb. Even Don Rumsfeld understood this and this is why he was so driven to rebuild the military...changing it from a force of big guns and tanks to one of lighter equipment and precision weapons.

Even this model, IMHO, is flawed. Look at Iraq to see how well it is working. Generals from across the world in countries that are weaker and unfriendly are working on insurgency plans that would weaken any invading army to the point that continuing a war would be too expensive to continue. Again, look at Iraq. $1,000,000,000,000 dollars and counting and none of it has been added to the national debt. Sooner or later Americans are going to wake up to this fact and DEMAND that we leave no matter what the cost.

Why?

Because it puts our children's future at stake.

Logically, all of this begs the question. If pre-emptive, offensive, warfare is so expensive, ineffective, and ultimately futile, why do we continue to make this a budget priority? Why can't we rethink our strategy for defense and actually make it for defense only? Why can't we reshape our military in order to be good global citizens and not the global cops?

In order to do all of this, we need to stop putting our soldiers on pedastals and start thinking about them in the context that they belong. IMHO, the ideal soldier does their duty when called and then finds other, more productive ways to contribute to society. In this modern world, this is all that we need.

 

[Don Roley]

This is nothing but the conservative penchent for living in the past. The times have absolutely changed.

No they have not. Not like that. You can argue and speculate about how things have changed. But every time someone has declared something fudemental as changed, they are proved wrong. WWI was originally declared the war that would end all wars. That did not last long. And your idea that we could nuke the entire world if backed into a corner is just not worthy of mention. You would put the future on the line because you think that the world is different, or at least you want to believe something like that so hard that you would risk us being able to stop armies at our shores. Until there is a case in history to prove what you say, I ain't willing to risk it.

 

[Hand Sword]

Hmmm....Maybe a good Idea. Fortress America. We pull out of everywhere we are and return to our own borders. Then all of the "bad guys" will come out of hiding, take over, where ever they are, and give us a real target to go after, instead of hunting for them, in every nook and cranny.... Plus, it let's the troops spend time patrolling our borders, thereby securing them, and clearing out those that don't belong here, fixing our infrastructure, helping to police, etc... Makes some good sense. I think everyone should be on board for that, seeing that we, and our policies are such a nuissance, and we really aren't needed, because the world isn't as we see it, that's just propaganda for imperialism.

Seriously, all sides of the Aisle love our troops, and want them home. We all wish that it was really propaganda, and that the terrorists didn't really exist. None of us wanted this.

God bless the troops.

 

[Carol]

Hmmm....Maybe a good Idea. Fortress America. We pull out of everywhere we are and return to our own borders. Then all of the "bad guys" will come out of hiding, take over, where ever they are, and give us a real target to go after, instead of hunting for them, in every nook and cranny.... Plus, it let's the troops spend time patrolling our borders, thereby securing them, and clearing out those that don't belong here, fixing our infrastructure, helping to police, etc... Makes some good sense. I think everyone should be on board for that, seeing that we, and our policies are such a nuissance, and we really aren't needed, because the world isn't as we see it, that's just propaganda for imperialism.

Seriously, all sides of the Aisle love our troops, and want them home. We all wish that it was really propaganda, and that the terrorists didn't really exist. None of us wanted this.

God bless the troops.

:asian:

 

[Makalakumu]

No they have not. Not like that. You can argue and speculate about how things have changed.

I don't need to speculate, Don. All I need to do is look at Nagasaki and Hiroshima to see how effective a Nuke is when it comes to stopping global conflict. Don, do you know what a 32 megaton weapon can do? Why in the world would anyone risk THAT!

But every time someone has declared something fudemental as changed, they are proved wrong. WWI was originally declared the war that would end all wars. That did not last long.

True, but those were different times. And now, we live in different times again. The military is outdated and in need of a substantial rethinking.

And your idea that we could nuke the entire world if backed into a corner is just not worthy of mention.

We would never be backed into a corner, Don. Someone who can send nukes to the farthest reaches of the Earth has a tactical advantage that supercedes any invasion. With our satallite technology, we would see anything like that before they even hit the water.

You would put the future on the line because you think that the world is different, or at least you want to believe something like that so hard that you would risk us being able to stop armies at our shores.

You are the one who is putting our future at risk by refusing to accept that the world is different. Our children will pay for this unfunded program with their blood sweat and tears and it, ultimately, will make it harder for them to acheive their dreams. And then there is the simple fact that any of our greedy leaders could pick up this tool and use it for some really nasty stuff. If Iraq and PNAC wasn't evidence enough for you, I don't know what is.

Don, the only one that could really precipitate another world war in this world is us. WE are the only country that has that ability.

Until there is a case in history to prove what you say, I ain't willing to risk it.

Open your eyes. You live in a place where the point was proven.

 

[Don Roley]

I don't need to speculate, Don. All I need to do is look at Nagasaki and Hiroshima to see how effective a Nuke is when it comes to stopping global conflict.

In case you have not noticed, global conflicts still go on. There are still attacks on the US. If you don't believe me, let's meet at that restraunt at the top of the world trade center to discuss things.

Yes, I live in Japan and I think the Japanese would be aghast at your attitude and plans for America. To say it is overly simplistic and lacking in reality is like saying the Titanic had a little problem.

You have said that the troops in Afghanistan are not really there for anything other than our dreams of global hedgemony and talk more about the PNAC than the Taliban. You have even taken the side that high explosives and not Al queade took down the WTC. So I guess that you really don't think about how the only option we would have had after 9-11 for Afghanistan would have been to kill millions of people by nuking them if we followed your vision of America.

Or if pirates off the coast of Somalia attack a US Cruise ship, we nuke Somalia. If we find information on terrorists creating the smallpox virus for an attack on us in Pakistan, nuke Pakistan. I can go on with tons of examples of how you could only nuke a nation if you put into practice what you desire.

We would have to pull everything and everyone we have back to our borders and set up a fortress America. Then we could watch as all the rest of the world falls and threaten to kill everyone on the planet if they attack us.

My God, do you really want that to happen?

You mention Japan. Well, if it was not for the US seventh fleet here, millions of Japanese would either starve, or jump to the tune laid out by Beijing. The Japanese can't feed their own people without food shipments from outside of the country. The agriculture they have is dependent on petroleum for everything from planting to transportation to refrigerated storage. Your plan of disbanding the US military and telling our allies to go jump in the lake would make them face the choice of bowing under to North Korean and Chinese military power or starve.

And that is just one example of how things would go to hell in a handbasket if we do what you want. I have trouble believing anyone could be serious about what you propose.

 

[Makalakumu]

In rebuttle, Don, this is what I've got to say...

Why We Fight

All of the things that you were talking about are not the sole responsibility of the US. The entire world has a stake in all of that.

 

[Don Roley]

All of the things that you were talking about are not the sole responsibility of the US. The entire world has a stake in all of that.

Oh, and giving up responsibility to them is a good thing? We go back to the old debate about do we trust the folks who do not even hold elections to determine how the world shall be run and assure our security. And I am talking about free countries, when countries like China would be running their own agenda with America as a very distant concern.

 

[Cryozombie]

Well...

If I may be so bold...

If the attitudes presented in this thread are any indication, we know what they really think of the troops and those who served before.


​

 

[Makalakumu]

Oh, and giving up responsibility to them is a good thing? We go back to the old debate about do we trust the folks who do not even hold elections to determine how the world shall be run and assure our security. And I am talking about free countries, when countries like China would be running their own agenda with America as a very distant concern.

The real question is can we trust ourselves?

 

[Hand Sword]

The real question for those opposed to our policies, is what should be done? If not "fortress America" as I posted, then what? The only other alternative is to deal with the world. If we have to, I say again, what should be done?

 

[Marginal]

Fortress American and Invadotron/Secret Prison American aren't the only models. Neither model is good in fact.

It would seem to me that embracing globalization and actively deflating notions of nationalism at home and aborad would to much more to perpetuate global stablility in the long run.

 

[CoryKS]

Fortress American and Invadotron/Secret Prison American aren't the only models. Neither model is good in fact.

It would seem to me that embracing globalization and actively deflating notions of nationalism at home and aborad would to much more to perpetuate global stablility in the long run.

And how do you deflate notions of nationalism abroad without participating in what Tez3 described elsewhere as the US's inclination to tell others what to do?