dvcochran
Grandmaster
Agree. I am going to circle back around to crescents somewhere in the discussion.
What process did you use to create your curriculum?
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dvcochran
Grandmaster
I suspected it was something similar to your description. I would have to see it but it sounds like a common variation of a middle roundhouse kick.
If: your standing leg rotates slightly (20°- 45°), your kicking knee is rotated close to parallel with the ground, hips and shoulders rotated near the same, it is a common middle level roundhouse kick.
It is an effective kick both in sparring and SD if the person is good at it.
I do not have time right now but hope to go into further discussion about crescent kicks.
dvcochran
Grandmaster
Haha. Did not even think about that when I wrote it.
So, why do you (and @gpseymour ) feel crescents are low value kicks?
It would be great to hear your separate opinions of both inside and outside crescents.
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I don't think they're low value. I think if you're not focused on kicking, you're not going to be able to do them well enough for them to be worth value. They work for TKD, kickboxing, and the like, because we spend a lot of time on the balance and dexterity required to pull them off. If we were to have a BJJ guy or a boxer come in to do a seminar on kicks, I'd probably focus more on front kicks and roundhouse kicks, because those can be applied a lot easier by someone who's not as good at kicking.
I think the kicks themselves are excellent. I think the outside cresent is a little bit stronger and easier to do than inside crescent kick (to be clear, that's a kick that starts outside is easier than one that starts inside). I just think that your average aikido practitioner isn't going to be very good at doing crescent kicks. (No offense, @gpseymour )
We never trained outside crescent (inside-to-out), and never trained on actually using the crescent kick we did train, nor really even discussed its use. Literally, the only time people even practiced it was in prep for testing.
This is what I was getting at. I honestly don't know if they're useful or not - that's how ill prepared they were.
dvcochran
Grandmaster
That is in the "why do it at all" category. And a good example of where techniques get a bad rap because they are misunderstood.
It is an excellent primary or setup kick. One of the easier to teach kicks because you stand straight like a front kick. There are mechanical differences in how the power is generated however.
I never understood people who think it is a poor disarming tool. Of course, I am a kicker by experience.
I know I'm neither of the people you asked, but I'm going to butt in anyway with my opinion. The times I've seen crescent kicks be effective, is when people are in close range. To me, the advantage of kicks is specifically the range (keep in mind kicking isn't my specialty), so I'm not going to use a kick that loses that advantage. Plus that requires you to plant in close range. Not for a long time but for enough to be exposed to grapplers.
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I think it definitely becomes a lower percentage when grappling is involved, and a bit lower percentage for punching as well. It's at its best in Taekwondo, where you don't have to worry about getting punched in the face or getting your leg grabbed.
However, all kinds of head kicks are used in UFC. Roundhouse, axe kick, back kick, spinning hook kick, I've seen them all. The crescent kick is just another one. I just think you're more likely to see it used in TKD than UFC, both because they're better at kicking, but also because you can't do as much against a kick.
dvcochran
Grandmaster
Agree.
However, I still shake my head when I hear people saying that "TKD" does not punch to the head. It just is not true.
One sports style of TKD does not punch to the face, and they are the only one I am aware of.
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Yup, any time a leg/foot is coming at a high speed to my head, that's gonna hurt. And if you train it enough (or the other person isn't expecting it), it can definitely work in MMA. I just don't find the risk worth it, when I can also do damage to the head with my fists, without taking in those risks.
isshinryuronin
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re: crescent kicks
I put them in a separate category than roundhouse, front, back or side kicks in that, to me, they are not major strike techniques like those others, capable of putting an opponent down. It's more of a slap, not hitting with a hard heel or foot blade or ball of the foot. Because of the large sweeping movement and the position of the foot/leg, it is difficult to land it to the body or head. It might be for these reasons it's not common in MMA.
For me, the inside crescent is more useful and more powerful. I think it's best suited as a slap to an extended arm, requiring a follow-up technique, like a side kick with the same leg or continuing around with a spinning back kick.
I put them in a separate category than roundhouse, front, back or side kicks in that, to me, they are not major strike techniques like those others, capable of putting an opponent down. It's more of a slap, not hitting with a hard heel or foot blade or ball of the foot. Because of the large sweeping movement and the position of the foot/leg, it is difficult to land it to the body or head. It might be for these reasons it's not common in MMA.
For me, the inside crescent is more useful and more powerful. I think it's best suited as a slap to an extended arm, requiring a follow-up technique, like a side kick with the same leg or continuing around with a spinning back kick.
Yeah, that opening question was my question. I didn't have a good answer, so I dropped it. If I learned to use it well at all, I'd consider putting it back in.
dvcochran
Grandmaster
I can understand that viewpoint.
If you are a grappler (not certain you explicitly said that), how many times have you seen crescents kicks in use? You are correct that particularly the outside crescent kick is effective from close range. One of my go-to kicks back in the day. I had a standing knockout from an inside crescent kick while I was still grabbing cloth (hogu). There is also a very effective version of the outside crescent from a longer range (outside).
The Outside crescent is Very effective from outside. Mechanics and the opponents body position play a huge roles on when/why you use the kick.
We actually spent time on crescents in class last night. One thing we worked on was the how and why of the kick being thrown from an outside and/or inside position. As much as anything else, they way people are taught the kicks (or lack of) can be where the effectiveness goes off the rails.
I do not see it as a primary kick against a grappler. There would either have to be some setup to the kick and you would have to be experienced/good enough to see the opportunity when it presents it self.
All that said, if you end up on the ground, it is time to change you strategy and use other skills.
dvcochran
Grandmaster
I just recently said in another post how I had a standing knockout from an Inside (out to in) crescent kick while I was still grabbing cloth (I also got 100's of points this way). I landed the kick using the Heel to their jaw (off button). They never fully went down but they were loopy enough for the ref to call the match.
Too often people practice and learn the kick by only kicking a held target. often paddles because they give you audible feedback when you make a good kick. Not enough feedback however to feel what part of the foot is landing, and sadly 'landing' is not always understood or even taught. Mostly, people are happy if they can swing their leg in close to the right motion and just let the foot land as it chooses. This is an area where what I call "sparring mentality" can get you in trouble.
One of the cool things about the inside crescent is the choices in how it can be landed.
If I throw the kick to the head with the intent to just tag the person and get a point I will hit with a flat foot that naturally lands mostly on the instep. If I throw the kick with intent to injure/knockout I will land with the heel to the chin (usually). There is slightly change the mechanics of the leg and of course the foot.
If I throw the kick lower, to the hands, the arc is quite different. I have tried for years to come of with a better way to explain the trajectory; Think of a circle drawn on the wall vs. a circle drawn on the floor. A low outside crescent will take a path closer to the circle drawn on the floor. However, it is not a perfect circle in shape. There is much more of a sweeping or pushing down motion (dependent on where you need the hands to go).
dvcochran
Grandmaster
EDIT EDIT EDIT:
In post #56, the sentence should have said The inside crescent is Very effective from outside.
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If you think the crescent kick is just a slap, it means you're not doing the crescent kick at a high level.
If your opponent is expecting a punch, the kick can very easily catch him off guard. I still remember this speech 14 years after I heard it. It was my first day of work at a grocery store. We were going through orientation. The manager was going over the company policy of not stopping shoplifters (for employee safety). He was a big guy. Well over 6 foot tall, built sturdy. He told us that when he had just started, he followed a shoplifter out into the parking lot and tried to stop him. Dude was around a foot taller than the shoplifter. He says the next thing he remembers is waking up in the hospital, with his manager saying "I think he got you with his foot."
If your opponent is expecting a punch, the kick can very easily catch him off guard. I still remember this speech 14 years after I heard it. It was my first day of work at a grocery store. We were going through orientation. The manager was going over the company policy of not stopping shoplifters (for employee safety). He was a big guy. Well over 6 foot tall, built sturdy. He told us that when he had just started, he followed a shoplifter out into the parking lot and tried to stop him. Dude was around a foot taller than the shoplifter. He says the next thing he remembers is waking up in the hospital, with his manager saying "I think he got you with his foot."
