What percentage of lesson time do you spend on chi Sao?

[guy b.]

Funny how when it was you and LFJ tag-teaming on me it was Ok. Now the shoe is on the other foot and you don't like it.

I really don't mind either way KPM. Just seems a bit pointless for you to talk to yourself

So exactly what "unthinking habits" and "correct reactions" are you talking about? If you are serious about engaging in conversation, why do you seem to always make such general statements and no actual detail and information about your WSLVT?

Elbow usage, finding gaps, automatic covering, recycling, clearing the way, LLHS LSJC

How is rolling going to train a power chain?

By imposing correct structure and putting force through it, thereby shaping structure correctly and making it functional

But real fighting is not always a back and forth exchange of punches. There certainly are times where one person closes in and finishes off the opponent without stepping back to admire his work.

Does fighting suddely come to look like chi sau in this kind of situation?

 

[Phobius]

Worried here about some things. When people talk about bridge they know not to chase hands but rather establish good control of the fight. However when trying to chase bridge in a fight it usually ends up in chasing hands which is a big no in WC.

If you want a bridge, be prepared to lose it as well. If your tactic requires you to maintain a bridge, how do you react when your opponent does not want to play your game?

My thought on the matter is that a bridge exists for a split second, chi-sau allows me to come on top in that split second and using it to move into better position whether with my fist or my body. It is easier to maintain that bridge in some scenarios but if the moment is gone it will just remain gone until next time there is a bridge. In between nothing changes and our martial arts training should teach us to play in all fields. Not just one.

How much do I spend training chi-sau? Ask me two years ago and I would say "A LOT", today not so much. It varies from year to year and this year it is just something done every now and then.

 

[KPM]

I just saw Ip Man 3 yesterday. Got free tickets.

In the final scene, they started doing pun-sau in the middle of the fight.

Reminds me now of how KPM thinks Wing Chun fighting works; in YJKYM with parallel arms and fighting from a "bridge". Choreography by KPM.

I never said that. But you go on believing anything you want! You do that anyway!

 

[KPM]

I really don't mind either way KPM. Just seems a bit pointless for you to talk to yourself

---That doesn't even make sense.


Elbow usage, finding gaps, automatic covering, recycling, clearing the way, LLHS LSJC

---Elbow usage...how? Elbow strikes? Elbow alignment? Covering what? Does that involve using a bridge to limit the opponent's movement? Recycling what? For someone interested in conversation, you are still talking in vague terms.




By imposing correct structure and putting force through it, thereby shaping structure correctly and making it functional

---Whose structure? The opponent's structure or your structure? How are you "shaping" anyone's structure?



Does fighting suddely come to look like chi sau in this kind of situation?

---Of course not. Again, you obviously didn't get what I was saying. Go back and reread it.

 

[KPM]

Worried here about some things. When people talk about bridge they know not to chase hands but rather establish good control of the fight. However when trying to chase bridge in a fight it usually ends up in chasing hands which is a big no in WC.

---Agreed. But the whole "chasing hands" idea is a bit nebulous as well. Different people tend to have varying ideas of what this means. Pin Sun uses more Kum Na than some systems, and those other systems might call what we do "chasing hands" as a result. But absolutely, if contact or the "bridge" is lost, one should be chasing center. If the opponent manages to put up an obstruction to prevent that, then you have another bridge and can work from there.


If you want a bridge, be prepared to lose it as well. If your tactic requires you to maintain a bridge, how do you react when your opponent does not want to play your game?

---Again, if the bridge is lost you are going for the center....to finish the opponent. If he moves out of range quickly, then you have to reset and start again. This would give a "back and forth" sense to it....the give and take in sparring. But that is not the goal. The goal is to close with the opponent and finish him. But he isn't going to stand by passively and let you do that! He's going to try and stop you! When he tries to stop you a contact or a "bridge" is typically established and this is where Wing Chun skills really "kick in." That is not to say that one MUST have a bridge! If there is no bridge you should be hitting the opponent! But likewise to seek to exchange punches without working from and controlling a bridge....that is to neglect what Wing Chun actually trains to do!



My thought on the matter is that a bridge exists for a split second, chi-sau allows me to come on top in that split second and using it to move into better position whether with my fist or my body.

---I agree.


It is easier to maintain that bridge in some scenarios but if the moment is gone it will just remain gone until next time there is a bridge. In between nothing changes and our martial arts training should teach us to play in all fields. Not just one.

---Again, I agree. But every martial art has its "comfort zone" or area of specialty. Wing Chun's "comfort zone" is attached fighting. Not standing back and exchanging punches like a boxer. Not going to the ground like a grappler.

 

[Phobius]

---Again, if the bridge is lost you are going for the center....to finish the opponent. If he moves out of range quickly, then you have to reset and start again. This would give a "back and forth" sense to it....the give and take in sparring. But that is not the goal. The goal is to close with the opponent and finish him. But he isn't going to stand by passively and let you do that! He's going to try and stop you! When he tries to stop you a contact or a "bridge" is typically established and this is where Wing Chun skills really "kick in." That is not to say that one MUST have a bridge! If there is no bridge you should be hitting the opponent! But likewise to seek to exchange punches without working from and controlling a bridge....that is to neglect what Wing Chun actually trains to do!

What do you mean by exchanging punches? Being hit and hitting? Or something else?

When the way is free we attack, and we will get hit back. Nothing will ever change the fact that in a real fight people get hit no matter their training. Most certainly I misunderstood you so please explain how you mean, if you have time and wish to do so.

But every martial art has its "comfort zone" or area of specialty. Wing Chun's "comfort zone" is attached fighting. Not standing back and exchanging punches like a boxer. Not going to the ground like a grappler.

Can understand this, but my viewpoint as a practitioner of Kung Fu is that if I do not feel comfortable with a zone, I need to focus on training that more. My mind should never be in turmoil or worried but rather at peace. If I can not punch a boxer, how can I expect to punch a grappler? If I cant grapple a grappler, how can I grapple a boxer? Better learn it all. This is not stating you are incorrect, simply a statement that what you call comfort zone I rather call specialty.

WC in my view is more than a theory that requires bridging. It is boxing in more ways than that. But it is not grappling so I have to seek that elsewhere.

If only there were more hours in the day...

 

[KPM]

What do you mean by exchanging punches? Being hit and hitting? Or something else?

---Not really. I mean the "tic for tat"...."I hit you, you hit me"....back and forth....like a boxer.....without really trying to shut the other guy down and keep him from being able to punch effectively.


When the way is free we attack, and we will get hit back. Nothing will ever change the fact that in a real fight people get hit no matter their training. Most certainly I misunderstood you so please explain how you mean, if you have time and wish to do so.

---Of course, everybody gets hit in a fight! But in Wing Chun we typically don't just stand there and take the hit! We are usually trying to deflect, trap, control, etc.


If only there were more hours in the day...

---Nothing wrong with cross-training! Maybe "specialty" is the better term than "comfort zone." Its good to recognize a systems strengths and weakness. No one method has it all.

 

[guy b.]

Elbow usage...how? Elbow strikes? Elbow alignment?

Elbow position, elbow movement

Covering what?

Covering the attacking lines your oppoenent is likely to use

Does that involve using a bridge to limit the opponent's movement?

What is a bridge?

Recycling what?

Your punch

you are still talking in vague terms.

I am very happy to answer questions

Whose structure?

Those involved in the training drill

the opponent's structure or your structure?

No opponent in chi sau

How are you "shaping" anyone's structure?

By putting force through it, making it a functional working structure

Of course not. Again, you obviously didn't get what I was saying. Go back and reread it.

I don't understant why chi sau would be more relevant to a one sided exchange than normal fighting training. Chi sau is a training drill, not something directly applicable to a fight.

 

[KPM]

Here's an opinion from someone else. For what its worth.

And please note that he is not actually talking about using Chi Sau in a fight. He is talking about how elements of Chi Sau are applicable in a fight.

 

[KPM]

Elbow position, elbow movement

---Wow! You really think it takes all that just to figure out where to position your elbow?



Covering the attacking lines your oppoenent is likely to use

---How do you get that, if you think that Chi Sau doesn't apply to fighting? How are you training the attacking lines your opponent is likely to use if....first there is no opponent in Chi Sau, and second Chi Sau doesn't apply to fighting?



What is a bridge?

--- I clearly described that in my prior post that I already recommended that you reread once before. Again....if you are all about carrying on a meaningful conversation, why are you not even bothering to read what other people are saying on the thread? No, I think Saul was right. I don't know why I am even bothering to continue to respond.


Here was our exchange on the Alan Orr video thread:

You asked there:
What do you mean by a bridge?

And I answered:
---Contact with the opponent arm to arm. Usually at the forearm.

So either you don't pay attention very well, or you're just dense. Which one is it?

 

[SaulGoodman]

Elbow position, elbow movement

---Wow! You really think it takes all that just to figure out where to position your elbow?



Covering the attacking lines your oppoenent is likely to use

---How do you get that, if you think that Chi Sau doesn't apply to fighting? How are you training the attacking lines your opponent is likely to use if....first there is no opponent in Chi Sau, and second Chi Sau doesn't apply to fighting?



What is a bridge?

--- I clearly described that in my prior post that I already recommended that you reread once before. Again....if you are all about carrying on a meaningful conversation, why are you not even bothering to read what other people are saying on the thread? No, I think Saul was right. I don't know why I am even bothering to continue to respond.

It seems just keeping your elbows in and recycling your punches is all one needs to guarantee victory, who knew?

 

[SaulGoodman]

KPM, he's just an attention seeking troll who probably lives in his mothers basement and drives her crazy eating up all her bandwidth spouting his bile on forums. He's a firm fixture on my ignore list now. Life's way too short to spend time on people like this...

 

[KPM]

It seems just keeping your elbows in and recycling your punches is all one needs to guarantee victory, who knew?

Yep! But evidently it takes loads of Poon Sau and Lop Sau drills to figure out how to do that!

 

[SaulGoodman]

Yeah and I wish I hadn't wasted all those hours hitting pads and bags trying to improve my punching when all I had to do was focus on my tan Sao elbow position during snt practice...

 

[JowGaWolf]

Here's an opinion from someone else. For what its worth.

And please note that he is not actually talking about using Chi Sau in a fight. He is talking about how elements of Chi Sau are applicable in a fight.

yeah that's what were talking about when we said using Chi Sau concepts in the fight and not the actual Chi Sau practice exercise. I like this guy and I don't like him. He's 20 levels too hyper for me, but he says a lot of valid things just form my perspective as a non Wing Chun martial artist. My personal opinion is that he should cut down on the coffee lol.
Is he a respected person in the world of Wing Chun?

 

[KPM]

^^^^ Wong puts out a lot of videos that can be entertaining and have some good things in them. I've heard guys that went to workshops he has done at events in England say that he is a good teacher and a good guy. So yeah, he has some level of respect I think. We may not all agree with him all the time. But that's true of most things!

 

[geezer]

Is he ("master Wong") a respected person in the world of Wing Chun?

Not particularly. People have raised a lot of questions about his lineage and the "authenticity" of his training. Regardless, I find him very entertaining.

 

[LFJ]

---Wow! You really think it takes all that just to figure out where to position your elbow?

It's not just about elbow position, and it's not as easy as you seem to think.

We can be told how to move and understand the theory quite easily, but what happens when things speed up and become more intense or go to free sparring and fighting? Elbows pop out, people freeze, underreact, overreact, etc..

Hence the constant need to train it, unless you're already perfect. Then I guess all you need is to be told once.

---How do you get that, if you think that Chi Sau doesn't apply to fighting? How are you training the attacking lines your opponent is likely to use if....first there is no opponent in Chi Sau, and second Chi Sau doesn't apply to fighting?

He said "automatic covering" which is in reference to the way we attack and from what angles to provide automatic covering of possible attack lines, should there be an attack incoming or not.

We train similarly on the wooden dummy, in reference to our own position and structure. The dummy is not seen as a human offering attacks, as some others prefer. It's abstract and not filled with direct applications.

In chi-sau we function as each other's dynamic training apparatus to aid in each other's own development. Still not fighting an opponent yet.

 

[guy b.]

Hey Saul, up in the middle of the (UK) night at exactly the same time as KPM again? How's work this morning?

 

[guy b.]

Wow! You really think it takes all that just to figure out where to position your elbow?

As LFJ said, the elbow position in VT is very unnatural and it takes a lot of repetition and correction to entrain the correct behaviours and keep them there.

How do you get that, if you think that Chi Sau doesn't apply to fighting? How are you training the attacking lines your opponent is likely to use if....first there is no opponent in Chi Sau, and second Chi Sau doesn't apply to fighting?

Chi sau doesn't apply directly to fighting in that going into a fight and trying to do the chi sau drill (which is done with a cooperative opponent to the benefit of both) is likely to result in your getting punched in the face. Chi sau is a drill designed to train habits, skills, movement which apply to fighting. But it is not fighting.

Contact with the opponent arm to arm. Usually at the forearm.

The strategy of VT is to hit, not to grapple in some contrived way which is nullified as soon as the opponent doesn't want to do it.