What Paul Vunak said about BJJ

[punisher73]

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Not understanding is in the weakness of the practitioner, not the art. With strikers, this comes about from the striker training reactively to what's always seen in training, i.e. the heavy bag. The when a Gracie BBJ moves in and ducks, well the heavy bag didn't do that so the striker is now clueless.... Not what I would call traditional karate....
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Stating the objective is to "... nullify the striker's game plan;" says nothing rather than a starting point. There's no action, no technique, no description of how the grapple r mystically accomplishes said objective. And again with a bit of thinking, striker against striker has the same pragmatic goal. The only thing that's changed is one uses take-downs, the other uses strikes... Either way, the assailant must still approach you & lay hands on you.
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I know as ShotoNoob, I study principles but come on.......

I didn't realize that you needed an "indepth" description. But, here is a quick video explaining a common approach used by BJJ to close the distance on a striker.

The video even points out that boxers tie up and clinch to nullify strikes. You're right, there is nothing "mystical" about it, but grapplers spend a large amount of time closing that distance safely to nullify strikes. Go look at the early UFC's and the "Gracie Challenge" videos, don't you think that SOMEWHERE one of these "traditional guys" would have been able to stop them from closing distance, taking them down and imposing their gameplan on them? It didn't happen. The first time we saw a "striker" beat a BJJer in an MMA/NHB competition was back with Maurice Smith KO'd a BJJ guy named "Conan" Silviera (sp?). How did he do it? He trained with a wrestler and grappler and spent LARGE amounts of time learning how to stop a skilled takedown and then getting back to his feet. This strategy was also implemented by Chuck Liddell with great success in the UFC to win the crown.

My point? Most traditional stylists DO NOT train against a skilled takedown artist. I have seen time and time again that what they call a "takedown" is actually what a grappler would call an unskilled "tackle". There is no real set up or masking with strikes to judge distance and keep the other person occupied, it is just a charge in from a long ways out. VERY different than a skilled takedown.

I know others have more experience then me, but I have been at this game for the last 20 years. In fact, I started the same year as UFC 1. I have seen the trends and how times and training have changed. Working in law enforcement and corrections for the past 18 years, I can also say that more and more criminals are watching things like the UFC and trying those moves, even if they don't have formal training. It's out there and unless you have a skilled grappler trying those moves on you and you can counter then you are deceiving yourself.

 

[ShotoNoob]

I didn't realize that you needed an "indepth" description. But, here is a quick video explaining a common approach used by BJJ to close the distance on a striker.

WHAT I realize IS that you don't understand traditional karate. Let's look at video together. I'll take it "indepth" point by point, to help both of our realizations.

1. YOUR POINT: The video even points out that boxers tie up and clinch to nullify strikes.
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COUNTERPOINT: My vids point out karateka doing same. Please review my material.

2. YOUR POINT.:You're right, there is nothing "mystical" about it, but grapplers spend a large amount of time closing that distance safely to nullify strikes.
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COUNTERPOINT: Karateka also spend a large amount of time closing the distance. Again plain in my vids. I guess your BJJ 'large amount of time' is automatically better than my Karate 'large amount of time?'
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3. YOUR POINT: Go look at the early UFC's and the "Gracie Challenge" videos, don't you think that SOMEWHERE one of these "traditional guys" would have been able to stop them from closing distance, taking them down and imposing their gameplan on them? It didn't happen. The first time we saw a "striker" beat a BJJer in an MMA/NHB competition was back with Maurice Smith KO'd a BJJ guy named "Conan" Silviera (sp?). How did he do it? He trained with a wrestler and grappler and spent LARGE amounts of time learning how to stop a skilled takedown and then getting back to his feet. This strategy was also implemented by Chuck Liddell with great success in the UFC to win the crown.
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3. COUNTERPOINT: I'm not impressed with the quality of the 'kareteka or their performance in the early UFC. Go watch the Gerard Gerdeau
vs. Royce Grace fight---PRIME EXAMPLE. UFC 1
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Chuck Liddell primarily implemented a strategy of KO'ing wrestlers. Which he implemented twice against WRESTLER, Randy Couture. UFC Championship fights.... Didn't you realize that. Randy Couture did.
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4A. YOUR POINT My point? Most traditional stylists DO NOT train against a skilled takedown artist. I have seen time and time again that what they call a "takedown" is actually what a grappler would call an unskilled "tackle". There is no real set up or masking with strikes to judge distance and keep the other person occupied, it is just a charge in from a long ways out. VERY different than a skilled takedown.
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4A. COUNTERPOINT: Most traditional stylists DO NOT train against a skilled takedown artist. ****AGREED****
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4B. YOUR POINT: I have seen time and time again that what they call a "takedown" is actually what a grappler would call an unskilled "tackle". There is no real set up or masking with strikes to judge distance and keep the other person occupied, it is just a charge in from a long ways out. VERY different than a skilled takedown.
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4B. COUNTERPOINT: Again, I've written exactly to this point IN PRINCIPLE, @ many a T. However, I'll put it in sport karate terms. Even in the UFC / MMA they acknowledge time & time & time & time again how karate fighting is about distance & timing. Obviously in MMA, this includes grapplers. BUT YOU, are saying the MMA / UFC experience doesn't hold water in terms of distance and time yet it's widely acknowledged in MMA. I also gave two relatively recent examples of karateka devastatingly KO'ing MMA grapplers. One was a skilled kumite fighter, the other was a new black-belt in his 1ST match against a three-time winner....
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Your argument that the BJJ closing the distance is different, so karateka sparring striking can't defend. The larger principle is you don't know the principles about how karateka are training in striking. I'll give you a short analogy. The same argument is made over & over that since certain karate styles don't allow head punches in sparring, they can't handle head punches from other styles such as MMA. boxing. Every one in my school knows and everywhere else should know too this is ridiculous. The boxers in my school, as well as the black-belt who cross-trains in boxing all agree. This belief is the typical Monkey-see, the Monkey-can-only-do Myth. Do you realize you are relying on karateka only being able to respond to some exact experience, like monkeys?

5. YOUR POINT: I know others have more experience then me, but I have been at this game for the last 20 years. In fact, I started the same year as UFC 1. I have seen the trends and how times and training have changed. Working in law enforcement and corrections for the past 18 years, I can also say that more and more criminals are watching things like the UFC and trying those moves, even if they don't have formal training. It's out there and unless you have a skilled grappler trying those moves on you and you can counter then you are deceiving yourself.
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5. COUNTERPOINT: FIRST, I have already addressed the UFC issue. SECOND, I have already gone on RECORD multiple times in multiple threads AGREEING that grappling especially BJJ is a valuable & desirable skill. Yet you claim to have the 'REALIZATIONS.' What you have is position that has been repeated to me continuously when your response is incompetent regarding my accurate position. THIRD, you are deceiving yourself by ignoring the examples I have presented and explain. And there couldn't be any better example than CHUCK LIDDELL, which you yourself made.
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NOW, I will speak to the BJJ vid you posted in a post below, SPECIFICALLY IN DEPTH.

 

[ShotoNoob]

I didn't realize that you needed an "indepth" description. But, here is a quick video explaining a common approach used by BJJ to close the distance on a striker.

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|PREFACE: I LIKE THE VID. CLEAR INSTRUCTION. WORKABLE TACTICS ****AGREED****
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STOP TIME 0:56: HG throws low kick @ opponent. Did you realize that the 1st set of Ippon kumite in my style uses a kick to close the distance? Are you advocating when HG throws a kick we kicking karateka will be utterly stunned & freeze immobile?
We're off to a great beginning, and I'm just getting started. Give me a minute while I post another vid.

I think this is a general Shotokan vid not JKA.
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// HG's BJJ Vid:
1. HG has closed the distance his head slightly bowed. Explain to me why the opponent in your vid isn't immeidately countering with a punch when the Shotokan competitors in my vid are moving all around, then springing forward very, very fast--my Shotokan guys are firing off strikes??? Doesn't the opponent in your vid realize this is what sport karateka, Shotokan point fighting kumite train to do? let's continue...
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2. Do you realize the opponent is using a boxing / kickboxing guard? Do you realize the defensive implications of this under traditional karate principles. Same for stance. And what happened to the high mobility strategy that Shotokan kumite point fighters employ. Does the HG realize that Shotokan kumite employs great & rapid mobility? It's not in the video yet.
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3. STOP TIME 1:12. HG has opponent throw left jab. Does HR realize, re my vid, that this is not Shotokan punching form? I won't even ask if HG realizes the implications of his head position.... let's go a bit further...
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STOP TIME 1:24. Opponent misses with jab. HG use the typical boxer head movement to dodge & duck. Well, the opponent has already blown several Shotokan karate point fighting laws, so what's some more.... Like remaining rooted in an upright position leaning off balance ripe for a takedown. The opponent's punching hand is frozen and his other hand (out of position) is completely passive. Does either HG or the opponent realize how Shotokan kumite point fighters employ their striking hands (a universe away from what's shown)?
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LOOK, I'LL STOP HERE.... I do like the vid. It's very instructional. But it's presented in a vacuum, which my vid Specifically addresses. And using that oft criticized Shotokan karate point fighting kumite style....

 

[ShotoNoob]

You rely on striking itself. Good striking. Hands high, light feet ,chin down. Is terrible grappling.

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Please refer to my Shotokan vid / posts.

 

[ShotoNoob]

You rely on striking itself. Good striking. Hands high, light feet ,chin down. Is terrible grappling.

}
Take some time...
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STOP TIME 1:46. HG with hands up, is 'magically' able to shield against any impact from opponent's punches; furthermore, opponent arms remain outstretched when HG goes for grab. I can think of more arts than karate that know what to do here. And it is in the Shotokan syllabus as well as my vids.... There's also something in traditional karate called chambering any one realize the implications...?

 

[punisher73]

WHAT I realize IS that you don't understand traditional karate. Let's look at video together. I'll take it "indepth" point by point, to help both of our realizations.

1. YOUR POINT: The video even points out that boxers tie up and clinch to nullify strikes.
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COUNTERPOINT: My vids point out karateka doing same. Please review my material.

2. YOUR POINT.:You're right, there is nothing "mystical" about it, but grapplers spend a large amount of time closing that distance safely to nullify strikes.
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COUNTERPOINT: Karateka also spend a large amount of time closing the distance. Again plain in my vids. I guess your BJJ 'large amount of time' is automatically better than my Karate 'large amount of time?'
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3. YOUR POINT: Go look at the early UFC's and the "Gracie Challenge" videos, don't you think that SOMEWHERE one of these "traditional guys" would have been able to stop them from closing distance, taking them down and imposing their gameplan on them? It didn't happen. The first time we saw a "striker" beat a BJJer in an MMA/NHB competition was back with Maurice Smith KO'd a BJJ guy named "Conan" Silviera (sp?). How did he do it? He trained with a wrestler and grappler and spent LARGE amounts of time learning how to stop a skilled takedown and then getting back to his feet. This strategy was also implemented by Chuck Liddell with great success in the UFC to win the crown.
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3. COUNTERPOINT: I'm not impressed with the quality of the 'kareteka or their performance in the early UFC. Go watch the Gerard Gerdeau
vs. Royce Grace fight---PRIME EXAMPLE. UFC 1
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Chuck Liddell primarily implemented a strategy of KO'ing wrestlers. Which he implemented twice against WRESTLER, Randy Couture. UFC Championship fights.... Didn't you realize that. Randy Couture did.
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4A. YOUR POINT My point? Most traditional stylists DO NOT train against a skilled takedown artist. I have seen time and time again that what they call a "takedown" is actually what a grappler would call an unskilled "tackle". There is no real set up or masking with strikes to judge distance and keep the other person occupied, it is just a charge in from a long ways out. VERY different than a skilled takedown.
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4A. COUNTERPOINT: Most traditional stylists DO NOT train against a skilled takedown artist. ****AGREED****
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4B. YOUR POINT: I have seen time and time again that what they call a "takedown" is actually what a grappler would call an unskilled "tackle". There is no real set up or masking with strikes to judge distance and keep the other person occupied, it is just a charge in from a long ways out. VERY different than a skilled takedown.
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4B. COUNTERPOINT: Again, I've written exactly to this point IN PRINCIPLE, @ many a T. However, I'll put it in sport karate terms. Even in the UFC / MMA they acknowledge time & time & time & time again how karate fighting is about distance & timing. Obviously in MMA, this includes grapplers. BUT YOU, are saying the MMA / UFC experience doesn't hold water in terms of distance and time yet it's widely acknowledged in MMA. I also gave two relatively recent examples of karateka devastatingly KO'ing MMA grapplers. One was a skilled kumite fighter, the other was a new black-belt in his 1ST match against a three-time winner....
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Your argument that the BJJ closing the distance is different, so karateka sparring striking can't defend. The larger principle is you don't know the principles about how karateka are training in striking. I'll give you a short analogy. The same argument is made over & over that since certain karate styles don't allow head punches in sparring, they can't handle head punches from other styles such as MMA. boxing. Every one in my school knows and everywhere else should know too this is ridiculous. The boxers in my school, as well as the black-belt who cross-trains in boxing all agree. This belief is the typical Monkey-see, the Monkey-can-only-do Myth. Do you realize you are relying on karateka only being able to respond to some exact experience, like monkeys?

5. YOUR POINT: I know others have more experience then me, but I have been at this game for the last 20 years. In fact, I started the same year as UFC 1. I have seen the trends and how times and training have changed. Working in law enforcement and corrections for the past 18 years, I can also say that more and more criminals are watching things like the UFC and trying those moves, even if they don't have formal training. It's out there and unless you have a skilled grappler trying those moves on you and you can counter then you are deceiving yourself.
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5. COUNTERPOINT: FIRST, I have already addressed the UFC issue. SECOND, I have already gone on RECORD multiple times in multiple threads AGREEING that grappling especially BJJ is a valuable & desirable skill. Yet you claim to have the 'REALIZATIONS.' What you have is position that has been repeated to me continuously when your response is incompetent regarding my accurate position. THIRD, you are deceiving yourself by ignoring the examples I have presented and explain. And there couldn't be any better example than CHUCK LIDDELL, which you yourself made.
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NOW, I will speak to the BJJ vid you posted in a post below, SPECIFICALLY IN DEPTH.

For the record, Gerard Gerdeau was an international Kyokushin Champion and 4th Dan, also a Savate Champion as well. Chuck Liddell one the first fight against Randy Couture and then lost the next two rematches against him. The examples that you gave are more exceptions to the rule than the norm.

I do understand "traditional karate", having studied it for over 20 years. I have also seen that in the vast majority of fights/contests the grappler usually has the advantage unless the striker has also trained with grapplers or their teacher has had grappling training to show proper attacks.

We can all find "anecdotal" stories of people who beat other people. We see it all the time to show why Style X is effective because so and so used it "on the street" to win a fight or protect themself. If you look at the raw data of fights in contests with striking/grappling, the grapplers hold the advantage whether you like it or not.

 

[MJS]

I didn't realize that you needed an "indepth" description. But, here is a quick video explaining a common approach used by BJJ to close the distance on a striker.

The video even points out that boxers tie up and clinch to nullify strikes. You're right, there is nothing "mystical" about it, but grapplers spend a large amount of time closing that distance safely to nullify strikes. Go look at the early UFC's and the "Gracie Challenge" videos, don't you think that SOMEWHERE one of these "traditional guys" would have been able to stop them from closing distance, taking them down and imposing their gameplan on them? It didn't happen. The first time we saw a "striker" beat a BJJer in an MMA/NHB competition was back with Maurice Smith KO'd a BJJ guy named "Conan" Silviera (sp?). How did he do it? He trained with a wrestler and grappler and spent LARGE amounts of time learning how to stop a skilled takedown and then getting back to his feet. This strategy was also implemented by Chuck Liddell with great success in the UFC to win the crown.

My point? Most traditional stylists DO NOT train against a skilled takedown artist. I have seen time and time again that what they call a "takedown" is actually what a grappler would call an unskilled "tackle". There is no real set up or masking with strikes to judge distance and keep the other person occupied, it is just a charge in from a long ways out. VERY different than a skilled takedown.

I know others have more experience then me, but I have been at this game for the last 20 years. In fact, I started the same year as UFC 1. I have seen the trends and how times and training have changed. Working in law enforcement and corrections for the past 18 years, I can also say that more and more criminals are watching things like the UFC and trying those moves, even if they don't have formal training. It's out there and unless you have a skilled grappler trying those moves on you and you can counter then you are deceiving yourself.

EXCELLENT post!!!! You hit the nail on the head, and then some, with what you said here! Not much more that I could add, so I won't. Well, OK, maybe a little..lol. Regarding the unskilled tackle comment: agreed 100% and this is something that I'd often get into heated debates about with certain Kenpo folks. Their reply to that was usually, "Well, on the street, it's unlikely you're going to face a Royce Gracie, so why train for that?" Well, as you said about the inmates...people watch this stuff, they play around with it in their back yard. Wrestling is a sport offered in many schools/colleges, so yeah, the odds of running into someone who actually knows how to 'shoot in' for that takedown, are high.

It's really amazing how much your skill level will go up, when you're training with someone who actually knows what they're doing. *That 'your' is generic, not talking about you specifically.*

 

[Hanzou]

Having been on both sides of the fence (Shotokan, Judo, and finally Bjj), I can state with confidence that there's a lot of people learning Karate, TKD, Kung FU, or some other traditional art and are not learning any sort of grappling defense whatsoever. What's worse, if you close the distance on some of these practitioners, they freak out and don't know how to react, much less defend against a takedown attack, due to their lack of true sparring or fighting experience.

Check out this clip;

I consider the grappling abilities of this guy to be very sub-par, yet he asserted his dominance on these Karateka pretty decisively by simply closing the distance. Compare that to that Gracie vid above, or to what I consider the cream of the takedown crop;

Those Karateka wouldn't stand a chance in hades of defending that level of takedown. And before someone says that the chances of fighting an experienced grappler is slim, consider that there's plenty of teenage boys doing wrestling and football, and a lot more than that watching MMA and doing backyard wrestling.

 

[ShotoNoob]

For the record, Gerard Gerdeau was an international Kyokushin Champion and 4th Dan, also a Savate Champion as well. Chuck Liddell one the first fight against Randy Couture and then lost the next two rematches against him. The examples that you gave are more exceptions to the rule than the norm.

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For the record, Gerard Gordeau was then a KYO-kickboxing stylist, not a JKA traditional Shotokan karateka. As an authority on karate, do you realize the distinction? Your key word.
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For the record, you support the anecdotes, yet fail to support the anecdotes with facts. Chuck Liddell lost the 1st match to Randy Couture through classic MMA GNP. Liddell came back to KO Couture twice to take the UFC LHW crown, and secondly to successfully defend the title. LIddell also TKO'd Oritz, a wresting stylist, at least twice. These were also UFC championship bouts I believe. to help our 'realizations,' you are welcome to check my facts.

I do understand "traditional karate", having studied it for over 20 years.

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So you say... Who was it who remarked about 'advanced beginners?'

I have also seen that in the vast majority of fights/contests the grappler usually has the advantage unless the striker has also trained with grapplers or their teacher has had grappling training to show proper attacks.

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Again, you keep quoting your position as 'proof.'. I will go on record saying that Matt Bryers program appears to me to be very sound; and moreover, his combat BJJ style perfectly suited to the population he is presenting it too. I would definitely agree and award Matt B. the win if you are talking Matt's School versus the average traditional karateka student.
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A good sport karateka black-belt and Matt B's pupils are going to start having problems (see my vid posts). A bona-fide traditional karate black-belt, Matt B's grapplers, well again see my posts.

We can all find "anecdotal" stories of people who beat other people. We see it all the time to show why Style X is effective because so and so used it "on the street" to win a fight or protect themself. If you look at the raw data of fights in contests with striking/grappling, the grapplers hold the advantage whether you like it or not.

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YES. the Gracie BJJ protagonists brought up the anecdotes. And I crushed them... with SPECIFICS, not realizations....
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Whether you admit it or not....

 

[Hanzou]

YES. the Gracie BJJ protagonists brought up the anecdotes. And I crushed them... with SPECIFICS, not realizations....
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Whether you admit it or not....

Well there's also the fact that every pure traditional karate fighter has done nothing but embarrass themselves on the MMA/NHB circuit....

 

[ShotoNoob]

Having been on both sides of the fence (Shotokan, Judo, and finally Bjj), I can state with confidence that there's a lot of people learning Karate, TKD, Kung FU, or some other traditional art and are not learning any sort of grappling defense whatsoever. What's worse, if you close the distance on some of these practitioners, they freak out and don't know how to react, much less defend against a takedown attack, due to their lack of true sparring or fighting experience.

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Recreational sport karate, Matt Bryers Sport JuiJutsu will most certainly wipe them out...........**** ***NO ARGUMENT*** *****.
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Where are we on the spectrum of traditional karate?

 

[ShotoNoob]

Well there's also the fact that every pure traditional karate fighter has done nothing but embarrass themselves on the MMA/NHB circuit....

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More "Realizations."

 

[Hanzou]

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Recreational sport karate, Matt Bryers Sport JuiJutsu will most certainly wipe them out...........**** ***NO ARGUMENT*** *****.
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Where are we on the spectrum of traditional karate? OH.... more 'RELAIZATIONS.'

Again, where are the traditional karate stylists in MMA or NHB? What's stopping a traditional karateka from entering MMA or NHB and becoming a multi-millionaire?

 

[ShotoNoob]

Again, where are the traditional karate stylists in MMA or NHB? What's stopping a traditional karateka from entering MMA or NHB and becoming a multi-millionaire?

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I put up material, please respond to the material.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Again, where are the traditional karate stylists in MMA or NHB? What's stopping a traditional karateka from entering MMA or NHB and becoming a multi-millionaire?

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I put up material, please respond to the material.

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On 2nd thought, no response to my posts is necessary....

 

[punisher73]

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For the record, Gerard Gordeau was then a KYO-kickboxing stylist, not a JKA traditional Shotokan karateka. As an authority on karate, do you realize the distinction? Your key word.
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For the record, you support the anecdotes, yet fail to support the anecdotes with facts. Chuck Liddell lost the 1st match to Randy Couture through classic MMA GNP. Liddell came back to KO Couture twice to take the UFC LHW crown, and secondly to successfully defend the title. LIddell also TKO'd Oritz, a wresting stylist, at least twice. These were also UFC championship bouts I believe. to help our 'realizations,' you are welcome to check my facts.


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So you say... Who was it who remarked about 'advanced beginners?'


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Again, you keep quoting your position as 'proof.'. I will go on record saying that Matt Bryers program appears to me to be very sound; and moreover, his combat BJJ style perfectly suited to the population he is presenting it too. I would definitely agree and award Matt B. the win if you are talking Matt's School versus the average traditional karateka student.
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A good sport karateka black-belt and Matt B's pupils are going to start having problems (see my vid posts). A bona-fide traditional karate black-belt, Matt B's grapplers, well again see my posts.


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YES. the Gracie BJJ protagonists brought up the anecdotes. And I crushed them... with SPECIFICS, not realizations....
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Whether you admit it or not....

You said that Gerad Gerdeau was not a good representation of "traditional karate". Yet, Kyokushin is one of the 4 recognized traditional japanese karate styles. So what is YOUR definition of "Traditional Karate". That might make this conversation more productive. Gerdeau was/is a high ranking black belt in a TRADITIONAL style. Now, you want to put other qualifiers on his qualifications.

I stand corrected on Chuck Liddell vs. Randy Couture. I thought it was 2-1 the other way. That being said, read what I first wrote about Chuck Liddell. He used grappling to beat the grappler. Chuck Liddell was a collegiate wrestler in addition to his karate training and later hawaiian kempo training.

Let's use an example closer to home. Lyoto Machida. GREAT traditional karateka who is also a BJJ blackbelt. It's the understanding of the ground game that makes him so dangerous on his feet. Because, he's not afraid to go to the ground if it happens.

I'm not even going to address an insult calling me an "advanced beginner". Ever stop to think that the people who disagree with you have been there and done that and understand things that a "ShotoNewbie" might not yet?

 

[drop bear]

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Again, your view in the conventional sense of how martial art styles are practiced is "true."
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By traditional karate standards, however, patently false. The Tatsuya Naka vid and related definitely demonstrates what I am saying.
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Again, if you are training against a partner who only throws a straight punch at your chest (aka IPPON KUMITE) AND, all you do in that training is learn to REACT to just what the partner does.... then yes you are correct.
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No doubt this is how the Matt Bryers and his "high profile" hard contact sparring partners look at it....
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Here's how I look at it. Same idea with the "Kiai Master vs MMA" vid. No one over there seems to accept my conclusion.
Despite all the talent here, I guess I have to go through it step-by-step....
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Step1. Kiai Master throws students all over the place. they are like the proverbial putty in his hands.
Step2. Kiai Master and MMA fighter pare off, Kiai Master waves hands @ Mr. MMA, NO EFFECT.
Step 3: Mr. MMA PUNCHES OUT Kiai Master.
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Under the applied goal of traditional karate (or any traditional martial art), the working objective in a physical confrontation is to use your technique to disable the opponent.
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Kiai Master's technique is completely useless, both on offense & defense. Kiai Master is dispatched by Mr. MMA.
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Hence, the PRINCIPLES behind the ability the Kiai Master demonstrated he could apply is a hoax--fraud; OR, he is incompetent in those PRINCIPLES. Either way, the Kiai Master is a fraud since he couldn't substantiate his ability when the vid starts out demonstrating he had some ability to throw 'opponents' over all the place & he was in complete control.... THIS IS PRECISELY WHY I LIKE MMA AS A PRESSURE TESTING ENVIRONMENT FOR TMA.
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BTW: the 3rd alternative is that the whole video was staged by MMA advocates. Whatever, in terms of legitimate martial arts, the vid is NONSENSE....

I just got to watch that video and did not see any takedown defence. And so am a bit confused as to how that makes a point.

 

[ShotoNoob]

I just got to watch that video and did not see any takedown defence. And so am a bit confused as to how that makes a point.

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EDIT: AH, it may be there; bottom line as I stated the KIAI vid is nonsense to me. Please refer to the Gracie BJJ vs. Karate posts I have made.

Yes, I know how you are confused. And I'm also sure that you standing in the shoes of a striker would be overwhelmed by the Gracie JuiJutsu guys in the BJJ video.
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Bottom Line: Traditional karate doesn't work for you. To borrow a line from Danny T., "then don't do it."
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Crossing training in the general grappling arts is for you...........IMO.

 

[ShotoNoob]

HANZOU & I AGREE ON THIS:

I disagree. People also take up MMA for self defense purposes, and personal fitness.

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I'm all in favor of practitioners taking up "MMA" for self defense. The Matt Bryers BJJ program, and he has an extensive striking background as well.
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DROP BEAR, hows this sound?