What martial art is best for a beginner, petite female working in a risky industry?

[Druid11]

My view is you do what you need to do to get the result. We are suggesting this as a skill set for a job.

You will train in an art you hate if you need to get good at it. People do it all the time.

Oh and if there is a fitness test for the cops that involves running. And you don't like running. Go do swimming instead. Same thing really.

I realize that it's because the OP wants to work in law enforcement. That being said, assuming that martial arts is something that she wants to continue long term and not just for a short period, I think the advice to find one you like to practice rather than one you simply do because you think it will be the most effective is a sound one. You can push through you dislike for anything in the short term, but long term I generally find people don't work as hard at things they don't like. If you loathe your job do you do try as hard as the person who loves it? Probably not. Do people do passable jobs doing things they hate, sure. But I doubt they rarely truly excel at them. I'm not saying the OP should go out and pick Tai Chi and think she's going to be able to defend herself, but assuming there's good quality instruction for several different martial arts in her area, I think she will do better picking one she enjoys doing.

So if the person really hates running and wants to be a LEO they will train to run just as much as they need to pass the test and probably not much more. And they could very well use swimming to help them get ready for running. If they are an excellent swimmer that trains every day, they probably have the cardiovascular endurance to run fairly well with minimal training. By the same vein, if the OP trains a martial art they love they could probably use it to help them be effective in the martial arts skills their agency reaches them. If they only train in a martial art they hate, they will probably train it to up to the point of being passable.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Hi, that's actually good to know. Do you mind telling me why the hips are your weapons?

Hips are where we wear a duty belt and it's filled with weapons and other gear. Falling on it hurts.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Weapons, ie gun, pepper spray, etc. are ON the hips of law enforcement officers. They hang off the belt.

And falling on them hurts.

 

[JR 137]

And falling on them hurts.

I’d assume more so than falling on your keys, which really sucks.

 

[drop bear]

I’d assume more so than falling on your keys, which really sucks.

You try to keep crap off your back. Which gets jabby.

They do vests now which make that a bit easier.

I have fallen on my back and been jammed by a radio or something. It sucks but I could take one or two.

If it was happening 10 times a night it would be bad. But then I probably have bigger issues.

 

[Wsc2020]

I've worked in various correctional settings for over 20 years. I have found using good verbal skills and in general being professional will keep you out of the vast majority of confrontations both inside a prison and on the street.

However, when I have ran into trouble the common theme seems to be a lack of ability to reason with the individual due to alcohol, drugs or a psychiatric crisis.

A correctional setting is very different than a street setting as everything you do is under "Color of Authority" subject to review and potentially court. You are supposed to gain control while harming as little as possible.

That being said, being on the wrong end of a size mismatch against an aggressive opponant intent to do you harm gives some leeway in the "fear for your life" category.

My wife is 100 lbs and about 4'11.

I would want her to avoid a fight if at all possible. It's unrealistic to expect her to square off with a large opponent and box, muay Thai or karate strike her way to victory.

The truth is many self defense techniques often fail against larger stronger opponents.

My father taught me when backed against a wall against a larger person trying to harm me, look for a weapon. And in lieu of that fight as dirty as possible.

Eye Gouge, box the ears, punch the throat, kick the groin, kick the knee. Even bite. Use surprise if you can.

It's not a cage match. You just need to stop the attack or escape.

Any training is better than no training.

And sometimes doing anything is better than doing nothing even if maybe it won't work.

But there's no training that completely makes up for the inherant disadvantage of being small.

I prefer American Kenpo but the individual instructor and the individual student are as important as the art studied.

Maybe a 9 year old 4 ft tall black belt will defeat a healthy 6 ft tall 200 lb man but my money's not on it.

But youngster's best chance is to scream then a kick to the groin and run, not trying bjj/muay thai.

And as far as the often heard "if it doesn't work in sparring or in an MMA match it is ineffective" groupthink I see a lot lately I say this:

If 90 percent of an art is illegal in sparring or competition how can you expect to evaluate it through competition?

The goal of combat oriented Martial Arts is to stop a fight. Using that as a standard of effectiveness, any MMA match that goes the distance, everything used in that match was technically "ineffective". When there is a knock out, that was "effective".

Apparently, If it doesn't train in resistance it isn't "real". But having rules and fighting with a goal of not injuring your opponent is "real".

The reality is a punch, kick, knee or elbow...choke hold or throw doesn't care what it's name is, who taught it or the name of who did it.

And it either works or it doesn't.

Sorry /rant off

 

[Tez3]

If 90 percent of an art is illegal in sparring or competition how can you expect to evaluate it through competition?

I do agree with you but not this bit, yes the fanboys go on about MMA in the way you describe but the reality is that it's what it says it is, a variety of martial arts for use in a competition. There's also the reality that just because fighters don't use a technique in a competition is doesn't mean they don't know how to do them ( think about it, if they didn't know the illegal techniques how would they know not to use them in a competition? ) seriously though, we know how to turn all the legal techniques into 'competition' illegal ones and them some.

 

[drop bear]

And as far as the often heard "if it doesn't work in sparring or in an MMA match it is ineffective" groupthink I see a lot lately I say this:

If 90 percent of an art is illegal in sparring or competition how can you expect to evaluate it through competition?

The goal of combat oriented Martial Arts is to stop a fight. Using that as a standard of effectiveness, any MMA match that goes the distance, everything used in that match was technically "ineffective". When there is a knock out, that was "effective".

Apparently, If it doesn't train in resistance it isn't "real". But having rules and fighting with a goal of not injuring your opponent is "real".

The reality is a punch, kick, knee or elbow...choke hold or throw doesn't care what it's name is, who taught it or the name of who did it.

And it either works or it doesn't.

Sorry /rant off

It works and it doesn't work at the same time. Until it is either observed to work or not work.

 

[Wsc2020]

I do agree with you but not this bit, yes the fanboys go on about MMA in the way you describe but the reality is that it's what it says it is, a variety of martial arts for use in a competition. There's also the reality that just because fighters don't use a technique in a competition is doesn't mean they don't know how to do them ( think about it, if they didn't know the illegal techniques how would they know not to use them in a competition? ) seriously though, we know how to turn all the legal techniques into 'competition' illegal ones and them some.

What I'm commenting on specifically there is the difficulty in demonstrating, for example, a technique where one distracts then strikes the temple, assumes you would be dazed and follows up with a punch to the throat a throw to the ground and face stomp.

I'm not volunteering to have it demonstrated on me .

And what it's called doesn't matter.

Sometimes, theory is all we can go by or...we just don't train to maim and give up on it.

That being said real sparring, conditioning and learning what it feels like to be hit are really important.

But I personally believe we resort to training in a high stress situation .There's a story we were told on the range about an officer that had to fire his weapon in a real life situation.

He fired two shots and holstered. Muscle memory .That's how they trained at the range year after year.

If you constantly train to fight with the most effective and vulnerable tragets as off limits, I'm not so sure it's that easy to suddenly turn on the "fight dirty" switch.

I'll also concede opponents can potentially be pissed off or drunk friends or family that we might not want to injure, so having the ability to fight in a non nasty fashion is also very useful.

And as always, results may vary according to the individual.

 

[drop bear]

What I'm commenting on specifically there is the difficulty in demonstrating, for example, a technique where one distracts then strikes the temple, assumes you would be dazed and follows up with a punch to the throat a throw to the ground and face stomp.

Can this person throw a basic punch?

Does he have the basic skillset that would let him survive a MMA fight?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

If 90 percent of an art is illegal in sparring or competition how can you expect to evaluate it through competition?

I've tried a bunch of martial arts and seen a lot more. Don't think I've ever encountered one where 90% of the art would be illegal in all forms of sparring or competition. I've personally sparred with weapons, groin strikes, knees, and hair pulling as well as the usual throws, chokes, joint locks, and punching/kicking to 95% of the body. I've watched competitions where elbows and head butts and stomps to the head of a downed opponent were legal. Maybe there's an art out there I haven't found which is 90% eye gouges and biting?

What I'm commenting on specifically there is the difficulty in demonstrating, for example, a technique where one distracts then strikes the temple, assumes you would be dazed and follows up with a punch to the throat a throw to the ground and face stomp.

Kind of a dangerous assumption there unless you have the experience to know that you can reliably hit a non-cooperating opponent in the temple and daze him. Other than getting in a bunch of real fights, your best bet to get that kind of experience would be training in an art which includes full contact sparring.

If you constantly train to fight with the most effective and vulnerable tragets as off limits, I'm not so sure it's that easy to suddenly turn on the "fight dirty" switch.

The problem is that any kind of training for truly damaging techniques has to have some sort of flaw or else you are just actually injuring your training partners.

Let's say you practice an art which relies heavily on attacks to the throat, groin, and eyes. Do you drill your techniques by actually punching them full power in their unprotected throat, actually kicking them full power in their unprotected groin, actually gouging their eyes out? Probably not.

You have to modify things somehow. Perhaps you pull your blows. Perhaps you aim slightly off target. Perhaps you equip your partner with protective gear.

All of these possibilities run into potential problems in a real fight. If you've been pulling your strikes short of real contact, are you going to be able to turn on the "full contact" switch in a fight? If you've been aiming off target, are you going to be able to turn on the "accurate targeting" switch? If you've been equipping your partner with heavy duty protective gear, do you know how an opponent will actually react without it?

All of this isn't even addressing the issue of defense. If you can't stop an opponent from hitting you in the face or recover from being hit, you'll probably never get to unleash your devastating groin kick/ throat punch/eye gouge combo.

My personal opinion is that if you can develop the skills to strike with power and accuracy to the 90% of the potential targets on a resisting opponent while preventing them from doing the same to you, then it is relatively simple to add a few supplemental drills to remind you of targeting the remaining 10%. If you can develop the grappling skills to control an opponent who is trying to do the same to you, then it is pretty easy to learn the opportunities for "dirty fighting" moves like biting or eye gouging.

On the other hand, if you can't do those things, then your odds of effectively kicking someone in the groin or punching them in the throat go way, way down. You need a delivery mechanism.

 

[Tez3]

If you constantly train to fight with the most effective and vulnerable tragets as off limits, I'm not so sure it's that easy to suddenly turn on the "fight dirty" switch

You assume that MMA people don't also train for self defence. Many do, many also train a TMA as well. My students have no difficulty switching from comp. rules to dirty fighting and to killing people. To be honest I never have either. There isn't a switch in the head that you flick and you change from one to the other. the killing people bit isn't usual admittedly in martial arts clubs but we are a military one with only a couple of civvies.

 

[Wsc2020]

Maybe can throw a good punch maybe not. Training is a spectrum. Every fight is unique. But for example regarding Kenpo...I think ultimately it teaches, if it's quality Kenpo taught by a decent instructor, to chain together combinations of strikes and kicks and basic body mechanics that put you in a good position to end a fight.

I'm older now. But when I was younger I was prone to fighting. Fights in school, fights in the Army. Fights in bars. Fights when drinking. Fights sober.

So regarding said punch. First. Size up opponent. If opponent takes up a fighting stance I'm going to react differently than if drunk cowboy throws a roundhouse.

But I think there's a couple points being missed. Regarding the op.

My 100 lb 4'11 wife isn't going to box, muay thai or even bjj herself to a victory against a 250 lb linebacker.

Weight classes exist for a reason. Fact: you need to be a certain general weight to even generate enough power to be able to knock someone out.

When disadvantaged by size and strength there's no choice but to fight as dirty as possible. You have two opportunities, in my opinion. Strike fast and first and hope for surprise and that you land something effective. Or if that fails, rely on conditioning and avoidance and hope bad guy gets tired and hope you can escape, help comes or because bad guy is tired you are able to apply a fight ending strike or kick.

Regarding theory vs. knowing what works it's such an interesting subject.

I know from personal experience the following are able to end a "street" fight because I've personally been on one end or the other of the following:

Kick to the groin. Fight over

Right cross to the nose with blood
explosion. (Ended 2 fights)

Rear naked choke with legs trapped, fight ended. (I passed out, lost bladder control but I recovered for a "round 2" and ended fight with punch, opponent ran he thought I had risen from the dead I think.)

After escaping a headlock by clawing ribs as a distraction, I got to feet, got opponant in headlock and did several uppercuts to face. Ended fight.

Larger opponent picked up a post hole digger and chased me. (Yes, I ran. Ended fight)

Right hook to side of head. Ko
Spinning back fist to head. End of fight.

I personally don't care for aikido but one time I actually used it in a fight, it was because stupid angry roommate in the Army kept bull rushing me and I just redirected him into the locker, then a wall, then another wall. I was shocked that worked. But bull rushing bent over with head down is a stupid move. He felt stupid and gave up. So ko'd by embarrassment?

Over the course of my life I've dabbled a little in boxing, kick boxing, aikido, Kenpo and Okinawan Karate.

If I'm in a fight I'm not any of those things. I'm just me. Whatever comes out, comes out. Ideally without thought. I'm not a style

More importantly, if I only restrict my learning to what I know for certain works, it really limits my training unless I go start a lot of fights for no reason.

So what I think instead is answering the question "is there a reasonable assumption that all, any or part of this technique work in any, most or some situations?"

Can I learn without being an idiot?

I've learned probably three major lessons over the years:

If I lose my feet I'm potentially in big trouble as I'm not good on the ground.

I'd much prefer to not fight a trained opponent. Now that I'm older I'd prefer not to fight at all.

I'm short. If I want to win against a larger opponent, I must fight fiercly, without fear and accept I might get my butt kicked.

But at my age I know what I know. So it's not all theory.

I apologize for such a long post. I'm not that interesting.

 

[Wsc2020]

You assume that MMA people don't also train for self defence. Many do, many also train a TMA as well. My students have no difficulty switching from comp. rules to dirty fighting and to killing people. To be honest I never have either. There isn't a switch in the head that you flick and you change from one to the other. the killing people bit isn't usual admittedly in martial arts clubs but we are a military one with only a couple of civvies.

I guess I'm just specifically directing my rant to the bjj cult that exists, especially at my work and these guys and some others I see online, trash TMA, and many other styles/schools. It seems to be a growing phenomenon.

 

[Tez3]

I guess I'm just specifically directing my rant to the bjj cult that exists, especially at my work and these guys and some others I see online, trash TMA, and many other styles/schools. It seems to be a growing phenomenon.

It happens, I've seen similar fashions over the years, at one point it was kick boxing, everything else was 'rubbish' of course, it's also been 'kung Fu' in Bruce Lee's time, everything else was 'rubbish'. Most times it's not people who train at anything that hold these opinions, it's fan boys.
I'm retired now so work colleagues don't bother me anymore, though I had great one, a couple were Gurkhas, my shift partner was, people tend not to boast about anything 'martial' to them. Another was an ex Para, another ex infantry, not a lot you can teach them about any sort of fighting so basically BJJ to them is for softies.

Thought you' d like this. Para recruits training. bald guy reffing is Cpl. Sandy Geddes ( boxer, kick boxer, MMA fighter) They aren't testing skills, you don't need any, it's all about bravery and aggression. Just shrug off fan boys comments, like certain political believers you will never educate them about martial arts.

 

[Wsc2020]

I've tried a bunch of martial arts and seen a lot more. Don't think I've ever encountered one where 90% of the art would be illegal in all forms of sparring or competition. I've personally sparred with weapons, groin strikes, knees, and hair pulling as well as the usual throws, chokes, joint locks, and punching/kicking to 95% of the body. I've watched competitions where elbows and head butts and stomps to the head of a downed opponent were legal. Maybe there's an art out there I haven't found which is 90% eye gouges and biting?

Kind of a dangerous assumption there unless you have the experience to know that you can reliably hit a non-cooperating opponent in the temple and daze him. Other than getting in a bunch of real fights, your best bet to get that kind of experience would be training in an art which includes full contact sparring.

The problem is that any kind of training for truly damaging techniques has to have some sort of flaw or else you are just actually injuring your training partners.

Let's say you practice an art which relies heavily on attacks to the throat, groin, and eyes. Do you drill your techniques by actually punching them full power in their unprotected throat, actually kicking them full power in their unprotected groin, actually gouging their eyes out? Probably not.

You have to modify things somehow. Perhaps you pull your blows. Perhaps you aim slightly off target. Perhaps you equip your partner with protective gear.

All of these possibilities run into potential problems in a real fight. If you've been pulling your strikes short of real contact, are you going to be able to turn on the "full contact" switch in a fight? If you've been aiming off target, are you going to be able to turn on the "accurate targeting" switch? If you've been equipping your partner with heavy duty protective gear, do you know how an opponent will actually react without it?

All of this isn't even addressing the issue of defense. If you can't stop an opponent from hitting you in the face or recover from being hit, you'll probably never get to unleash your devastating groin kick/ throat punch/eye gouge combo.

My personal opinion is that if you can develop the skills to strike with power and accuracy to the 90% of the potential targets on a resisting opponent while preventing them from doing the same to you, then it is relatively simple to add a few supplemental drills to remind you of targeting the remaining 10%. If you can develop the grappling skills to control an opponent who is trying to do the same to you, then it is pretty easy to learn the opportunities for "dirty fighting" moves like biting or eye gouging.

On the other hand, if you can't do those things, then your odds of effectively kicking someone in the groin or punching them in the throat go way, way down. You need a delivery mechanism.

Just going off Kenpo for example (and there's some very bad Kenpo out there I'll admit it), if a centerline is open I think literally every primary target of choice for self defense is illegal in UFC. It's not just eye gouging and biting right? Throat strikes. Breaks. Kneeing or head kicking a "grounded" opponent. Groin... Etc

Anyway. There's Fighting. All kinds of things are fighting. School fights, bar fights, slappy fights, UFC fights, Boxing matches, hockey fights...

A self defense survival fight? That's something you can spend your entire lifetime training for and never need it.

I guess my argument (and I prefer discussion to debate) would be something like.

I think this technique is effective .

TMA trashing fanboy: I want to see it at full speed with full contact and power or I won't believe it works.

Me: are you volunteering to be the "bad guy" for the demo?

You'll get no argument from me about the merits of sparring. But I view sparring as very non style specific, there's only so many ways to punch and kick. When I spar it's basically kick boxing. But for conditioning, mindset, and learning distance and striking... I like it. I wish more people did it.

Of course you risk brain injury and concussion. I think that's why a lot of schools have moved away from it. It's liability.

The Kenpo school I went to back in Texas back in the day, we full contact sparred every week.

One problem I have with grappling is this...

I prefer to keep distance. If I go to the ground someone took me there. I'm going to try like heck to get back up. I know my strengths.

And someone smaller, in my opinion should never surrender distance and willingly engage in grappling. It's very hard to run away.

The third thing is in grappling, and I'm not the only one to ever point this out...but like even in my personal experience when I was being choked out. I had a friend there watching. He yelled and yelled at the dude to let me go. It would have been very easy for him to kick my attacker in the head or bash him with a rock. But no... Pacifist friend lol

There's always a crowd around .You grapple you lose all focus of your surroundings, what's behind you and other threats. Your opponents buddy is very likely to come up behind you and knock you out, especially if you're winning. If you find out your opponent is more skilled than you it's very hard to retreat.

Look it has it's place. But no art is perfect. But I argued it before and I'll mention it again.

The loser of a UFC fight. Were his techniques effective?

Some people say Karate is a joke. Kenpo is ineffective. Kung Fu is a worthless fake waste of time. Only UFC MMA BJJ or Muay Thai is worthwhile.

But really...

It's always assuming "all things being equal".

Reality is, all things are never equal. The outcome of any fight is determined by such a crazy set of veriables unique to each fight. I'm not sure "Fighting Style” is the top of the list.

Size, Fighting Spirit (and the mental ability to actually harm another human), Strength and conditioning, striking skill, intelligence, instinct and experience. It all matters. Add in dumb luck and the opponent and the setting. ... It's a lottery.

Personally I choose to carry where I'm allowed to. Someone comes at me all crazy MMA style bigger than me if I have time I'm pulling my weapon.

I have no idea what my point was .

 

[Wsc2020]

It happens, I've seen similar fashions over the years, at one point it was kick boxing, everything else was 'rubbish' of course, it's also been 'kung Fu' in Bruce Lee's time, everything else was 'rubbish'. Most times it's not people who train at anything that hold these opinions, it's fan boys.
I'm retired now so work colleagues don't bother me anymore, though I had great one, a couple were Gurkhas, my shift partner was, people tend not to boast about anything 'martial' to them. Another was an ex Para, another ex infantry, not a lot you can teach them about any sort of fighting so basically BJJ to them is for softies.

Thought you' d like this. Para recruits training. bald guy reffing is Cpl. Sandy Geddes ( boxer, kick boxer, MMA fighter) They aren't testing skills, you don't need any, it's all about bravery and aggression. Just shrug off fan boys comments, like certain political believers you will never educate them about martial arts.

Yep. I sometimes feel very much like a "get off my (martial arts) lawn" old man. Heh heh.

 

[lklawson]

Maybe there's an art out there I haven't found which is 90% eye gouges and biting?

Kino mutai?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Kino mutai?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

I’ve never been clear on whether that’s an actual stand-alone art or just a subset of other arts, the way “chin na” is a part of many CMAs.

 

[lklawson]

I’ve never been clear on whether that’s an actual stand-alone art or just a subset of other arts, the way “chin na” is a part of many CMAs.

Me neither. I was just having fun with trying to find something. This is the closest I came.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk