What martial art is best for a beginner, petite female working in a risky industry?

[drop bear]

well that's exactly my point, if we cant be sure that a 250lb weight training bjj practising male can defend themselves, how can we say that a petite female who takes up bjj can, but that's more or less the advice that was given

Because they will be matched up with 250lb guys in training.

And they will either win or get smashed.

And so will have a realistic assessment of their ability.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Can you explain to me—I would genuinely like to understand... how does BJJ end a fight? So say someone assaults a woman, she has studied BJJ, and she locks him up in a position. I’m assuming they’re not all choke out positions. What then? What if no one’s around and he doesn’t pass out? I’ve never learned ground game, so I really just have no clue what happens then.

In my opinion, the close quarters wrestling styles - Judo, BJJ, Sombo, collegiate wrestling, catch wrestling, etc - are all just different facets of one art. That art is controlling someone else's body without them being able to control you.

Defensively, that means: being able to break an opponent's grips, keep them from controlling you in a clinch, keep them from taking you down, landing safely if they do take you down, escaping or reversing bad positions on the ground and being able to get up safely when someone is trying to keep you down.

Offensively, that means: being able to tie someone up in a clinch so they can't hit you effectively but you can hit them, being able to move them around, being able to throw them on their butt, or their back, or their face, or their head, being able to control their position on the ground, being able to control their limbs, break their limbs, choke them unconscious, being able to pin them in place while you beat on them or just until they are too exhausted fight. Lots of options.

The difference between these arts (or facets of an art as I like to think of them) is mostly a matter of emphasis and competition rule sets. The underlying physical principles are the same. Being a good wrestler will make you better at BJJ. Being good at BJJ will make you better at Judo. Being good at Judo will make you better at Sombo.

I am not going to post anything that is against Judo or BJJ, I don't intend to start a war. I will state that in my opinion, LE has requirements that are not as conducive to ground games as one might think.

For one thing, a LEO typically has a small arsenal of weapons on their waist. All of these are designed to be deployed quickly, which means they can be removed from the belt fairly easily. We do not want to be closing with a person whose hands are not yet secured or is facing us. Drunks try to grab guns, sorry, it's a fact. We don't want them anywhere near our weaponry. That meant for me in the old days, I'd use my Monadnock to club a drunk who reached for my gun. I'd drop him like a baby seal and no mercy either. He gets my gun, I'm done.

Second, even if you know how to fall correctly, it can be damned difficult to do it safely on asphalt, gravel, ice, snow, blood, or whatever you find yourself standing on. And then you have to worry about falling ONTO things which are sharp and pointy, like guns, handcuffs, cans of pepper spray, radios, etc, etc.

Third, stuff goes flying. Watch a cop fight video sometimes when it goes to ground. Please note that typically the cop does not voluntarily go to ground unless he's on the suspect's back in a kneeling position. And even then, his stuff goes flying everywhere, from hat to badge to radio and even sometimes his or her gun.

Fourth, sometimes more than one suspect. Great way to get kicked in the head by bad guy's drunken buddy who thinks he's helping his buddy out. Even passersby who are TRYING TO HELP can get decked because we don't know why a person without blue sleeves is trying to pry something loose. Not that we hate good Samaritans, but we don't know who is who unless they're wearing a badge.

Fifth, most departments these days forbid the use of choke holds. There are lots of things that a civilian can do to defend themselves that are forbidden to cops.

Sixth, we don't fight fair because we cannot lose. Losing is not really permitted. So if Jojo the dogfaced boy reaches for us to bring us into a clinch, he's going to get his hands broken with a night stick. Ball up a fist and try to throw hands, get a stick in the face. Not fair? Too bad, don't attack cops and you don't get mussed up. Get your hands on one of our weapons and we shoot lots of holes in you. That's how that game is played. Civilians do not like to hear about it, but it's true.

There are some rules to cop self-defense, because it's a different game for us (again, formerly in my case) than for most. We have to engage, most civilians can and should walk away. We often engage groups, so it's not a one-on-one thing. Macho don't enter into it, it's about making an apprehension and ending the danger to the public. Speed of apprehension is much more important than the attacker's safety. And lastly, we do this far too often. Our job is to end the danger, make the arrest, do the paperwork and GO HOME SAFELY. Attack a cop, you get what you get. Not trying to hurt you, but you not hurting me is much more important at that moment.

Go to the ground? Not if I can help it. Does it help to have a ground game? Absolutely, because sometimes you can't help going to the ground. But my first go to is verbal. "Ask 'em, tell 'em, take 'em." If that doesn't work, it's hands-on. If they do not cooperate, it's time to apply some come-along type moves. They go fistic on you, deploy weapons, and Hell comes with me.

Approaching a use of force encounter as a LEO using competition BJJ or Judo tactics would obviously be a bad idea. The trick is to realize that the physical skills of being able to control someone without being controlled are still very useful. You just have to adapt those skills to a different set of tactical priorities. Being able to stop someone from tackling you to the ground (or failing that, being able to escape quickly when you are tackled to the ground) is very useful. Being able to control his limbs if he grabs you so he doesn't reach your weapons is useful. Being able to take a suspect to the ground and pin him there so you can cuff him is useful.

In my opinion, someone who understands grappling should be able to adapt the use of their skills to different contexts, whether it's one type of grappling competition, a different type of grappling competition, MMA competition, street self defense, LEO work, or whatever.

 

[jobo]

This was your question.

"but that the question that the cheer leader for bjj and small female s don't want to answer, incapacitating a large male may be possible or it may not, but then what, how long do you lie there holding an arm bar, before you let go and he attacks you again."

no that was my first question, I asked wAtergal a question above

 

[Bill Mattocks]

In my opinion, the close quarters wrestling styles - Judo, BJJ, Sombo, collegiate wrestling, catch wrestling, etc - are all just different facets of one art. That art is controlling someone else's body without them being able to control you.

Defensively, that means: being able to break an opponent's grips, keep them from controlling you in a clinch, keep them from taking you down, landing safely if they do take you down, escaping or reversing bad positions on the ground and being able to get up safely when someone is trying to keep you down.

Offensively, that means: being able to tie someone up in a clinch so they can't hit you effectively but you can hit them, being able to move them around, being able to throw them on their butt, or their back, or their face, or their head, being able to control their position on the ground, being able to control their limbs, break their limbs, choke them unconscious, being able to pin them in place while you beat on them or just until they are too exhausted fight. Lots of options.

The difference between these arts (or facets of an art as I like to think of them) is mostly a matter of emphasis and competition rule sets. The underlying physical principles are the same. Being a good wrestler will make you better at BJJ. Being good at BJJ will make you better at Judo. Being good at Judo will make you better at Sombo.



Approaching a use of force encounter as a LEO using competition BJJ or Judo tactics would obviously be a bad idea. The trick is to realize that the physical skills of being able to control someone without being controlled are still very useful. You just have to adapt those skills to a different set of tactical priorities. Being able to stop someone from tackling you to the ground (or failing that, being able to escape quickly when you are tackled to the ground) is very useful. Being able to control his limbs if he grabs you so he doesn't reach your weapons is useful. Being able to take a suspect to the ground and pin him there so you can cuff him is useful.

In my opinion, someone who understands grappling should be able to adapt the use of their skills to different contexts, whether it's one type of grappling competition, a different type of grappling competition, MMA competition, street self defense, LEO work, or whatever.

I think I said that, and I agree with you. My concern was the 'choke em out' comments, as well as the usual thought from some grapplers to take the fight to the ground. Both are bad ideas for LEOs, generally speaking. But people who know nothing of LE work keep putting it forward. They should stay in their lane, IMHO.

 

[JR 137]

I think I said that, and I agree with you. My concern was the 'choke em out' comments, as well as the usual thought from some grapplers to take the fight to the ground. Both are bad ideas for LEOs, generally speaking. But people who know nothing of LE work keep putting it forward. They should stay in their lane, IMHO.

People somehow forget that a LEO’s job is quite a bit different than us civilians’ job. Our job is to get the hell out of the situation as quickly and quietly as possible. By whatever reasonable and rational means necessary.

A LEO’s job is to stick around and end the situation. Their objective is pretty much cuff ‘em and get them into custody. Choke ‘em out, knock ‘em out and/or bust up a limb is the last resort, short of shooting them.

And they’ve got a whole bunch of different things to consider - legality, equipment they’re wearing/carrying, backup, partners, etc.

I’m not a LEO, so that’s my best educated guess. And if a LEO tells me otherwise, I don’t have much of a leg to stand on. If they give a poster conflicting advice, I’m on the sidelines listening and keeping my mouth shut.

 

[drop bear]

no that was my first question, I asked wAtergal a question above

That was the question I replied to by quoting.

Whatever other questions you asked other people through your day are your problems.

 

[drop bear]

I think I said that, and I agree with you. My concern was the 'choke em out' comments, as well as the usual thought from some grapplers to take the fight to the ground. Both are bad ideas for LEOs, generally speaking. But people who know nothing of LE work keep putting it forward. They should stay in their lane, IMHO.

Is this the1970s approach where mabye you can hold a guy down with a wrist lock or arm bar. Back in the day when everyone thought aikido was a superpower because it worked so well in drills?

Avoiding going to the ground in a restraint or arrest situation where you feel there is a risk is the worst advice ever. And you shouldn't be advising it as you are getting people hurt.

If you want to suggest a method works. Show that method working. It is simple as that.

Does throwing a guy to the ground and basically sitting on them work? Hundreds of you tube videos of everyone around the world doing exactly that says yes. It is pretty simple.

Explain your methods and then show it working in real time.

Otherwise this doesn't work very well.

I know this because I have done it. But I don't expect people to just believe me. That is not how accountability works.

I hunt down a video of it working. So that people can see what I am discussing.

Tow truck driver understands this.

 

[CB Jones]

I think I said that, and I agree with you. My concern was the 'choke em out' comments, as well as the usual thought from some grapplers to take the fight to the ground. Both are bad ideas for LEOs, generally speaking. But people who know nothing of LE work keep putting it forward. They should stay in their lane, IMHO.

Nothing wrong with taking the fight to the ground...that's the best place to handcuff them....you just have to use tactics and techniques that are going to protect your gun and will put you in position to get handcuffs on them.

 

[drop bear]

Oh and by the way if you are going to hang of an arm. Figure 4 the thing that way at least he will have a super hard time getting you off them.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Nothing wrong with taking the fight to the ground...that's the best place to handcuff them....you just have to use tactics and techniques that are going to protect your gun and will put you in position to get handcuffs on them.

Lots of things wrong, actually. I've explained what some of them are.

 

[TMA17]

"Approaching a use of force encounter as a LEO using competition BJJ or Judo tactics would obviously be a bad idea. The trick is to realize that the physical skills of being able to control someone without being controlled are still very useful. You just have to adapt those skills to a different set of tactical priorities. Being able to stop someone from tackling you to the ground (or failing that, being able to escape quickly when you are tackled to the ground) is very useful. Being able to control his limbs if he grabs you so he doesn't reach your weapons is useful. Being able to take a suspect to the ground and pin him there so you can cuff him is useful.

In my opinion, someone who understands grappling should be able to adapt the use of their skills to different contexts, whether it's one type of grappling competition, a different type of grappling competition, MMA competition, street self defense, LEO work, or whatever."

These are great points Tony.

 

[CB Jones]

Lots of things wrong, actually. I've explained what some of them are.

We just have a little difference in tactics then. The agency I work for advises that actively resistant suspects should be taken down to the ground for handcuffing and cautions us about trying to handcuff somone who is actively fighting you from a standing position.

 

[JR 137]

We just have a little difference in tactics then. The agency I work for advises that actively resistant suspects should be taken down to the ground for handcuffing and cautions us about trying to handcuff somone who is actively fighting you from a standing position.

I’d imagine the best way to handcuff a truly resisting person would be them on their stomach with the LEO on top of them. Seems safer for everyone, most notably the LEO. The question becomes how do you get the person there safely (for you and him).

Never working law enforcement personally, that’s just a guess.

 

[CB Jones]

I’d imagine the best way to handcuff a truly resisting person would be them on their stomach with the LEO on top of them. Seems safer for everyone, most notably the LEO. The question becomes how do you get the person there safely (for you and him).

Never working law enforcement personally, that’s just a guess.

On their stomach is ideral...and if they are fighting me....their safety on the way down is not really a concern (to a degree). You can't Power Bomb them courtesy of Dr Insano. but nothing wrong with maybe faceplanting the guy on the way down..

 

[JR 137]

On their stomach is ideral...and if they are fighting me....their safety on the way down is not really a concern (to a degree). You can't Power Bomb them courtesy of Dr Insano. but nothing wrong with maybe faceplanting the guy on the way down..

Courtesy of Capt. Insano

My old dojomate is now a local cop. He was telling me a great story you reminded me of.

Him and his partner pull ove a drunk. The guy starts resisting and getting belligerent. His partner reaches for the pepper spray, and my buddy says “F this, we’re going old-school” and bounces the guy’s head off the hood.

The guy’s in the back of the cruiser complaining about his face hurting and saying police brutality. My buddy says “he was going to pepper spray you. I don’t want to get pepper sprayed because of you. Would you have rathered the hood or pepper spray?” Guy says “I’ll take the hood every time” and didn’t say another word.

 

[WaterGal]

sound like a few dates I've been on

but really, have you dumped a 250lbs attacker on the ground and controlled him as you describe, oemr is it just the standard forum fantasy your telling us?

I've fortunately never had to use more than verbal tactics to defend myself. However, in sparring? Yes. Just a couple weeks ago I worked with a newbie guy that had probably 80-100lbs on me, got him into my guard, controlled him, rolled him over, transitioned to arm bar and tapped him out. The next round, though, he used his weight to really smoosh me, and once he got on top I couldn't escape and we just stayed like that until the end of the round.

 

[drop bear]

On their stomach is ideral...and if they are fighting me....their safety on the way down is not really a concern (to a degree). You can't Power Bomb them courtesy of Dr Insano. but nothing wrong with maybe faceplanting the guy on the way down..

Which is the ball's bit about choke holds.

Because you can drag a guy down and protect their head.

 

[drop bear]

I've fortunately never had to use more than verbal tactics to defend myself. However, in sparring? Yes. Just a couple weeks ago I worked with a newbie guy that had probably 80-100lbs on me, got him into my guard, controlled him, rolled him over, transitioned to arm bar and tapped him out. The next round, though, he used his weight to really smoosh me, and once he got on top I couldn't escape and we just stayed like that until the end of the round.

New guys lay and pray. And therefore don't give up opportunities that you would otherwise get. Which is good because it changes your technique to counter that.

And where the concept game of inches starts to factor in.

 

[CB Jones]

Which is the ball's bit about choke holds.

Because you can drag a guy down and protect their head.

Where choke holds cause big problems is guys will use them when they have numbers.

If there are 3 guys holding down 1 guy it's hard to claim it was reasonable to choke him. Whereas if you are by yourself it becomes much easier to articulate that the choke was needed.

 

[CB Jones]

Because you can drag a guy down and protect their head.

I like the arm triangle because of this.

You can trip them or drag them down and easily move to a good handcuffing position.

And it protects your gun really well