What makes a Master?

[skribs]

So what does everyone think about people with relatively little time in an art or who are of a relatively young age, but are considered masters by their peers. Reading and researching karate, youll find examples of this from "the olden days". Arikaki died in his twenties- Funakoshi considered him a master. Youll also find examples of so and so was a master of X art, that person then trained B art under so and so and after four years mastered that art.......

Someone who started at 4 and has done this for 20 years has been doing this their whole life, since their brain was in its most developmental stages.

In BJJ, the most difficult weight class is adult: age 18-29. If you're in your 30s or older you get put into higher and higher age groups called Master 1, Master 2, etc. (In this case, the title has nothing to do with mastery, as Professor is the title used in BJJ).

I, as a Master 2 player (age 36-40), can go into the Master 1 or Adult brackets for a more difficult competition, but I can't go into Master 3 or higher because it would be unfair.

 

[isshinryuronin]

We should note the Arikaki (Arigaki) you are mentioning is Ankichi A., not the long-lived (and even more famous) Arigaki Seisho who taught Funakoshi (Shotokan creator) and Mabuni (shito-ryu creator).

Ankichi may be considered a prodigy, starting his karate as a child and learning from the some of the most renown masters in Okinawa such as Kyan, Chibana and Hanashiro. He may have died young but probably had close to 18 years in the art, likely training hours each day. Put this all together and you have a very good martial artist.

Don't know if Funakoshi called him a master (he might have) or if he was referring to his teacher, Seisho. Certainly, Ankichi would have been called "master" by his student, Nagamine Shoshin.

 

[Fungus]

I would say a "master", in MA or anything for that matter, is someone that has enough depth in his knowledge to now only know many things and hold many skills, but to also have a deep awareness of it's own limits of knowledge; which is necessary for exploring and learning on your own (as the leader or pioneer in the art) without external guidance. Such masters typically appear overly humble as seen by non-masters that do not possess the same awareness and insight of beyond.

 

[HighKick]

One might want to define a master in a discipline by that individual's attitude and behaviour towards the discipline under discussion.
To me, it doesn't matter how much they know, or what they've done, but how they think and act (or thought and acted if they're very old, or deceased) towards their discipline.

I would say that they show or have shown:

• character
• an ability to teach
• respect for competitors and students
• expertise

The first three are necessary, but not sufficient.
The last quality is probably what separates a master from a good teacher: degree of expertise.

Is there a hard barrier in terms of expertise? Once you get "here," you're now a master?
As we know, ask a master, and they wouldn't say they're a master, rather that their teacher was a master.

So I'd be careful to avoid saying that there's any such thing as an objective level called "master."
Rather, that one approaches mastery of that art. If they fit the categories above, they are approaching mastery.

But sure, in some cases, we can use the word as shorthand, as in "Yo-Yo Ma is a master of the cello."
I just don't think that we need to use the title "Master" as much as we do.

That's my opinion, of course.

If the tile wasn't self-used and self-applied so often, I don't believe there would be too much of a problem.

 

[Haruhiko]

If the tile wasn't self-used and self-applied so often, I don't believe there would be too much of a problem.

But what about my ancient art of Egojutsu? HOW WILL I MAKE MONEY?

 

[Prince_Alarming]

But what about my ancient art of Egojutsu? HOW WILL I MAKE MONEY?

By teaching clackledockling?

Also, for some reason I misread the thread title 'what makes a hamster'...

 

[Balrog]

What makes a Master? More specifically: what makes a good one? (Or Professor, Sensei, Sifu, Level 5 Wizard Extraordinaire, whatever it is in your art).

In my style, you must first reach 6th Degree Black Belt. You are then evaluated for Mastership based on several factors, such as: You must have a certain number of students in your lineage. You must have attended Leadership seminars. You must be recommended by at least three other Masters. Etc.

Once you are accepted, there is a year of training after the promotion to 6th Degree. At the end of that Mastership training, you are inducted as a Master.

Those are the technicalities. There are other things as well, such as life skills. For me, the big one was perseverance. I tested six times before achieving the rank needed. You never give up. You never stop learning and improving. And most of all, you instill those life skills into your students.

 

[Buka]

I believe that anyone teaching the Arts, regardless of the Art, must teach first and foremost by example.

If you are not a gentleman or a lady, your students probably won’t be either. If you do not work HARD, your students won’t work hard just because you tell them to.

If you don’t know how to actually fight, neither will your students. If you don’t have patience, neither will they.

If they ask a question you don’t know the answer to and don’t tell them that, they’ll know. (They always know.) And you will start to lose them.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If you don’t know how to actually fight, neither will your students. If you don’t have patience, neither will they.

If they ask a question you don’t know the answer to and don’t tell them that, they’ll know. (They always know.) And you will start to lose them.

Sometime, a teacher does know

- how to fight. But he doesn't want to teach his student how to fight.
- the answer for student's question. But he doesn't want his students to know the true answer.

IMO, this kind of teacher doesn't deserve to be called master.

 

[Buka]

Sometime, a teacher does know

- how to fight. But he doesn't want to teach his student how to fight.
- the answer for student's question. But he doesn't want his students to know the true answer.

IMO, this kind of teacher doesn't deserve to be called master.

I wholeheartedly agree. That person doesn’t deserve to be called any-Goddamn thing, especially not a teacher, never mind a Master.

If we can generalize for a minute, teachers teach. How and what they teach depends on their experience and how well they know how to pass that experience on to others. Anything included or not included in a student’s development is on YOU. It’s your choice.

Sometime, a teacher does know

- how to fight. But he doesn't want to teach his student how to fight.
- the answer for student's question. But he doesn't want his students to know the true answer.

IMO, this kind of teacher doesn't deserve to be called master.

I can’t even wrap my mind around that. I’ve been around, can’t say I’ve ever known an instructor to be like that. That’s so odd.

Strange thing, this whole Martial Arts stuff.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Many good points have been made.
I would like to address the teacher who may not want to teach their student how to fight.
.
I have fallen into this and it is always the student who comes to me and says I want to learn to KNIFE FIGHT!
Or they come to me and ask to be an assassin.
.
So no I do not teach them.
.
If while teaching them a curriculum and I cannot trust them then I will not teach them.
.
It is not because I have a superior mindset for others. It is because I do not want to be dragged into a court room for turning out murderers.
,

As to Master in general, I have also recognized that some may teach better than they fight.
Or they may have fought earlier in their life and are now teaching. And because of injuries or such they may not be able to fight to the best ability, yet they do know it and understand it and can teach it.
I also recognize that one maybe really good with their skill set and timing and suck at teaching.
.
The first is easier than the second one, as they usually do not have the patience now the wisdom to share.

A couple of examples of the title associated with me.
The first someone gave me a certificate after many years of training and testing with a rank that most would consider master level.
When first used in a seminar format some people cried foul and were upset.
.
I explained off the mats I am Rich. On the mats, call me by your systems respectful title or saying or say a simple sir or even a raised hand with an "um" referenced and I will do my best to answer your questions and help.
.
After time of me working with more people the complaints or jealousy either went away or was more quiet.
.

In a different art where our instructor did not use titles or even official ranks.
.
There some unofficial ranks.
Allowed to have a training partner.
Allowed to have a training group.
Allowed to teach.
and finally asked to teach the system as the founder had asked my instructor.
No where in there is a rank or official title.
So how did I get the rank/title of Master in that art?
.
A person from a different lineage and modified system wanted to visit out instructor.
They could not make their first couple of attempts.
Later he could only he had a stroke a month to two months prior.
So he staid at my house and of course we trained.
.
He was moving and I asked what some things were and his response was I am hitting you in the head and you are not even able to respond.
I had not responded to his movement as it was no where near my engagement zone.
While talking him I gave him a small little tap with the cane/stick backhanded to his shoulder.
Then I asked him to hit me in the shoulder.
He did softly.
I said harder, a little bit.
he did.
I said again same step up.
He did.
I said I did not die.
So every time you hit me in the shoulder it is a head shot.
And no matter what happens after this you can always say you hit me three to my one on you.
He laughed and appreciated the joke and the sentiment.
.
He then provided input I could react to and counter.
I place my strikes and did not hit him yet he knew his blocks were non-existent or late and he started calling me Master Rich.
I asked him not too. He did stop after a while.
.
The next day he saw our instructor and many of the current active students in the area.
.
He had explained to him what had happened and he was impressed by me and told my instructor that.
He was recognized as a Master in his system already.
Therefore I had to be a Master to be able to not get hit and place my strikes so we both knew.
.
I showed up late as I could not take the complete day off of work.
I was able to get there about 2 PM. Many people (almost all of them) were mad at me for the title usage by this visitor.
Even when I asked him to stop he continued. My Instructor who like I said was still recovering from a stroke, turned what he could and place a hand on mine and said it was OK. Let it go.
.
I staid until everyone had left. I had dinner with the family.
I asked him why was it ok.
He said I was recognized outside of our group for my skillset, so it was not self imposed and internal imposed.
.
I said we don't use them or at least he didn't.
His reply was if the others wanted to get that respect that could pick up a stick and cross it with people like I had been doing and was doing.
Nothing was stopping them from doing this.
.
They All wanted the title. And were jealous and upset when someone else had it.
Yet they were not willing to do the work.
.
I didn't do the work and exposure for title or rank.
I did it to learn and test myself no one else.

.
I mention these variations only for reference.
Mileage may vary.
Ignore if not what you are looking for.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

they come to me and ask to be an assassin.
.
So no I do not teach them.
.
If while teaching them a curriculum and I cannot trust them then I will not teach them. It is not because I have a superior mindset for others. It is because I do not want to be dragged into a court room for turning out murderers.

There is a difference between you won't teach a student (you don't want to sell your product to someone) and you only teach form without teaching application (you sell an incomplete product).

Many MA teachers may use this argument for not teaching application. But if we look at from a different angle, if a student gets hurt in a fight, can that student sue his MA teacher for not teaching him the application?

If I purchase a product, I want to make sure that product work. If I train MA, I want to make sure my MA training can save my life in a fight.

 

[Rich Parsons]

There is a difference between you won't teach a student (you don't want to sell your product to someone) and you only teach form without teaching application (you sell an incomplete product).

Many MA teachers may use this argument for not teaching application. But if we look at from a different angle, if a student gets hurt in a fight, can that student sue his MA teacher for not teaching him the application?

If I purchase a product, I want to make sure that product work. If I train MA, I want to make sure my MA training can save my life in a fight.

While taking a small business class at the U of M Flint - offered by their out reach program, I was asked what I was there for as everyone else eventually was asked.
Concentrated on Business loans and business plans and such.
.
I explained that my main source of income was and is engineering.
Martial arts is a passion.
And the art I teach is not going to use the same models other martial art schools might use.
.
One woman asked if I could help her and teach her a class so she would be safe. I talked to her and her husband and the instructor as it was at the end of the class.
* Background: In the news locally there had been a few women taken from malls and other locations along the local Express way and were found assaulted later in a city about 45-60 minutes away. *
.
I asked her about getting a CPL (Concealed Pistol License) for the state of Michigan. I was not and have never been an instructor for those classes. Yet, it is where I ask if people are interested as , and no pun intended, the biggest bang for their buck / time.
.
She said she could never shoot someone.
.
I asked about a pocket knife.
.
Same answer: She could never stab or cut someone.
.
I asked her about other weapons including hand held electrical devices "TAZER" being on brand.
.
Again she never could do that.
.
I asked if she could hit/kick or scratch a person.
same answer. "I never could hurt someone."
.
I told here if she had to be in those places and alone to park near doors and near light polls.
It was ok to be on her phone as long as her eyes were up and out and she called out everything she saw to the person on the phone.
Describing anyone nearby. Describing any approaching vehicles.
Do it loudly so everyone would know that someone else on the other end would know immediately if something happened and they would have a description.
.
Once again she didn't want that.
.
Here frustrated reply was: "Why can't I just take a class and get a certificate and be safe?"
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I told here I could not help her.
Her husband nodded with a smile and left with her.
The instructor said I lost a sale and that it was bad for business.
I then explained to the instructor that if word got out I did that, i could make some money for a few months, yet my reputation would be hurt to the point I would not be invited to teach anywhere again.
.
He didn't understand the business nor the market.
He did know loans and grants and business plans that banks want to see though.
.
She wanted to feel safe, only not take any accountability of her own.
I explain the techniques that have risk of injury (All of them) and some of the things that could happen.
I explain that it is not used in play, and used in their defense or their own personal training.
.
One cannot stop the litigious person.
One can only be prepared with history, evidence (liability waivers that call this out and including that accidents happen in contact training) and witnesses.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

One woman asked if I could help her and teach her a class so she would be safe.

I had the similar experience. One day a girl called me and asked if my UT Austin Kung Fu informal class could help her to defend herself. I told her yes. She then came to my house and showed her bruises on her legs that her husband beaten her up. She stayed in one semester in my class and left. Next semester her husband joined in my class.

It was so funny.

- The first 4 months, I taught a wife how to beat up her husband.
- The second 4 months, I taught a husband how to beat up his wife.

 

[HighKick]

I had the similar experience. One day a girl called me and asked if my UT Austin Kung Fu informal class could help her to defend herself. I told her yes. She then came to my house and showed her bruises on her legs that her husband beaten her up. She stayed in one semester in my class and left. Next semester her husband joined in my class.

It was so funny.

- The first 4 months, I taught a wife how to beat up her husband.
- The second 4 months, I taught a husband how to beat up his wife.

I have a hard time calling that funny.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I have a hard time calling that funny.

The funny thing is her husband signed up my class 4 months later. I truly didn't expect that.

In my example, I just taught a girl to be able to defend herself against her husband's abusing. Even today, I still believe I did the right thing.

​

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

The funny thing is her husband signed up my class 4 months later. I truly didn't expect that.

In my example, I just taught a girl to be able to defend herself against her husband's abusing. Even today, I still believe I did the right thing.

Except you then taught the husband to beat her up too

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Except you then taught the husband to beat her up too

Taught a wife to beat up her husband, and then taught a husband to beat up his wife is just a joke. I truly don't think I would have any control over that.

Every semester, my UT informal Kung Fu class had 50 students. I taught all those students. I didn't just teach 1 special student. 4 months later, the husband left and took an Aikido class.

How much responsibility should a MA teacher take for his student's behavior? That can be an interested discussion. A teacher may have responsibility for his disciples. But for general students, I just don't know how can that teacher has any control over it.