Bruce Lee. Master or Not?

[The Kai]

I've heard that a magazine gets a 30 percent boost in sales when BL is on the cover. Joe Lewis in a magazine I got from the 70's in which he downplayed the Bruce connection. After the guy hit the big time everybody came out with "I trained with him". How many were claiming that before his fame?? Granted I don't have hard facts this is a glorified opinion

 

[searcher]

After reading the posts over again I am also beginning to wonder if we are basing our opinipns on his film career and his martial arts. To give him credit he was an inovator with the concepts he created(JKD), but was he truly a master? I believe we will all have to define what a master is, as has already been stated. What I whink a master is may not be the same as what anyone else thinks a master is, and so on.

A question I have is, are we basing his martial skill off of what Dan Inosanto teaches? Because if we are is it not truly Mr. Inosanto who deserves the credit?

 

[Sin]

If he was a true master he would have died of old age, not some random "accident" in all honestly I don't know the cause of death but I was told that he was killed in a fight. If he was a true master he would be alive today. I do belive though that JKD and the other Gung fu style he created are very effecive, although all credit shouldn't go to just him, but a majority should

 

[hardheadjarhead]

If he was a true master he would have died of old age, not some random "accident" in all honestly I don't know the cause of death but I was told that he was killed in a fight. If he was a true master he would be alive today. I do belive though that JKD and the other Gung fu style he created are very effecive, although all credit shouldn't go to just him, but a majority should

Oh. A criteria for mastery is death by old age? I didn't know that. So if some of the noted masters we venerate should die in a car accident they then lose their master status? Is that how it works? Do we confer the title post-mortem then? By your reasoning here there are no living masters. Only dead ones. Old dead ones.

Bruce Lee died of cerebral edema brought on, according to the medical report, by the ingestion of Equagesic, a precription medication. No fight was ever implicated. The ol' "death touch" b.s. was going around for some time after that, of course. Other rumors circulated that he didn't really die, but faked his demise. This made for the final plot line in "Game of Death."

As for bestowing upon him only partial credit for an art you concede he created...I think I'll let that just sit and ferment.


Regards,


Steve

 

[MichiganTKD]

I think what Sin was getting at was that by dying at a young age rather than living for many years, Bruce was demonstrating that he did not truly understand himself.

A true master understands their strengths and their weaknesses. What is good for them and what they should avoid. Bruce, although physically very talented, was still immature in the sense that he thought he could do anything and it would not hurt him. Youthful invulnerability if you will. True masters tend to live longer because they exercise this discretion and know what is good and not good for them. Car accidents, combat, and disease don't count because you can't really control them. You can control what you put in your mouth.

 

[Feisty Mouse]

I think what Sin was getting at was that by dying at a young age rather than living for many years, Bruce was demonstrating that he did not truly understand himself.

A true master understands their strengths and their weaknesses. What is good for them and what they should avoid. Bruce, although physically very talented, was still immature in the sense that he thought he could do anything and it would not hurt him. Youthful invulnerability if you will. True masters tend to live longer because they exercise this discretion and know what is good and not good for them. Car accidents, combat, and disease don't count because you can't really control them. You can control what you put in your mouth.

I find this statement bizarre at best.

So if you are "a true master", you are also expected to have psychic foreknowledge of all chemicals and medications in front of you?

Hooey.

 

[The Kai]

After reading the posts over again I am also beginning to wonder if we are basing our opinipns on his film career and his martial arts. To give him credit he was an inovator with the concepts he created(JKD), but was he truly a master? I believe we will all have to define what a master is, as has already been stated. What I whink a master is may not be the same as what anyone else thinks a master is, and so on.

A question I have is, are we basing his martial skill off of what Dan Inosanto teaches? Because if we are is it not truly Mr. Inosanto who deserves the credit?

Was Bruce innovative or sense he was'nt well appprieciated from the old school masters was he hoppinmg about trying out bits of info??

Dan Innsanto=JKD

 

[Feisty Mouse]

Was Bruce innovative or sense he was'nt well appprieciated from the old school masters was he hoppinmg about trying out bits of info??

Dan Innsanto=JKD

I'm sorry, what were you trying to say?

 

[MichiganTKD]

Not psychic knowlege, just common sense of what is and is not good for you. Some of this is based on experience, some on research. Again, Bruce's energy was on 24-7. I simply don't believe that given his lifestyle, he could ingest anything and have no ill effects. He apparently thought he could. Obviously he was wrong.

 

[Feisty Mouse]

So if you are given a presciption for meds, and take them, you think you are indestructible?

 

[Corporal Hicks]

Not psychic knowlege, just common sense of what is and is not good for you. Some of this is based on experience, some on research. Again, Bruce's energy was on 24-7. I simply don't believe that given his lifestyle, he could ingest anything and have no ill effects. He apparently thought he could. Obviously he was wrong.

You know that do you?
Sure he overworked himself. As well as the medication thats probably what helped kill him!

 

[searcher]

This is almost like "My dad can beat up your dad", isn't it? As long as there are different styles there will always be a difference of opinion. The induvidual is more important than the style or instructor. Borrowed that one from Dan Inosanto.

 

[arnisador]

So if you are "a true master", you are also expected to have psychic foreknowledge of all chemicals and medications in front of you?

Hmmm, sounds like Systema. (Sorry, Systema guys!) He died of, essentially, a reaction to aspirin, which caused brain swelling. Did he overwork himself? That probably didn't help but wasn't the proximate cause of his death.

As to Mike Tyson...OK, substitute your favorite boxer.

Would we have MMA without Bruce Lee? Yes, but he did help promote the idea. Of course, mixing a few arts has a long history, but mixing this many arts was less common, I'd say.

Was he a master? It's a senseless question as long as we're all using different definitions of the term.

 

[DarrenJew]

The drug that claimed Bruce Lee's life
____________________________________________________
EQUAGESIC* tablets

SCHEDULING STATUS:
S5

PROPRIETARY NAME
(and dosage form):

EQUAGESIC* tablets

COMPOSITION:
Each tablet contains:
Meprobamate (white layer) 150,0 mgEthoheptazine citrate (yellow layer) 75,0 mgAcetylsalicylic acid (pink layer) 250,0 mgContains TARTRAZINE.

PHARMACOLOGICAL CLASSIFICATION:
Category A, 2.9 Special analgesic combinations

PHARMACOLOGICAL ACTION:
EQUAGESIC* contains two analgesics (acetylsalicylic acid and ethoheptazine) and meprobamate which has muscle relaxant activity with a complementary anxiolytic effect.

INDICATIONS:
Relief of tension headache, painful musculo-skeletal disorders complicated by mental tension and muscle spasm, painful conditions complicated, by apprehension, e.g. dysmenorrhoea. The effectiveness of EQUAGESIC* in long-term use; that is, more than 4 months, has not been assessed by systematic clinical studies. The doctor should reassess periodically the usefulness of the drug for the individual patient.

CONTRA-INDICATIONS:
EQUAGESIC* is contra-indicated in patients with a history of sensitivity or severe intolerance to acetylsalicylic acid, meprobamate or ethoheptazine citrate.

WARNINGS:
Do not use continuously for more than 10 days without consulting a doctor.
Aspirin (acetylsalicylic acid) has been implicated in Reye’s syndrome, a rare but serious illness in children and teenagers with chicken pox and/or influenza. A doctor should be consulted before aspirin is used in such patients.
This product contains F.D. and C Yellow No 5 (tartrazine), which may cause allergic-type reactions (including bronchial asthma) in certain susceptible individuals. Although the overall incidence of tartrazine-sensitivity in the general population is currently thought to be low, it is frequently seen in patients who also have aspirin-sensitivity.

DOSAGE AND DIRECTIONS FOR USE:
Usual adult dosage is 2 tablets three to four times daily.
The usual dose for children 6 to 12 years of age is 1 tablet three to four times daily. Not recommended for children under 6 years.

SIDE-EFFECTS AND SPECIAL PRECAUTIONS:
Serious side effects have not been observed following the administration of EQUAGESIC*. A small percentage of patients may experience nausea with or without vomiting and epigastric distress. Dizziness occurs but rarely when EQUAGESIC* is administered in the recommended dosage. The meprobamate may cause drowsiness but, as a rule, this disappears as the therapy is continued. Should drowsiness persist, this symptom can usually be controlled by decreasing the dose.
On rare occasions, meprobamate has caused severe allergic reactions. This has occurred in most instances in patients who have had only 1 to 4 doses of meprobamate and have not had previous contact with the drug. Previous history of allergy does not appear to be related to the incidence of reactions. Mild reactions are characterized by an itchy urticarial or erythematous, maculopapular rash which may be generalized or confined to the groins. Acute nonthrombocytopenic purpura with cutaneous petechiae, ecchymoses, peripheral oedema and fever have also been reported. More severe cases, observed only very rarely may also have fever, fainting spells, angioneurotic oedema and bronchial spasm. Treatment consists of the administration of adrenaline, an antihistaminic and, possibly, hydrocortisone or similar agents. Meprobamate should be stopped and reinstitution of therapy should not be attempted.
PRECAUTIONS:
Preparations containing acetylsalicylic acid should be kept out of reach of children.
Careful supervision of dose and amounts prescribed for patients is advised, especially with those patients with a known propensity for taking excessive quantities of drugs.
Excessive and prolonged use of meprobamate in susceptible persons, for example, alcoholics, former addicts, and other severe psychoneurotics, has been reported to result in dependence on the drug. Where excessive dosage has continued for weeks or months, dosage should be reduced gradually rather than abruptly stopped since withdrawal may precipitate reactions of greater proportions than that for which the drug was originally prescribed. Abrupt discontinuation of doses in excess of the recommended dose has resulted in some cases in the occurrence of epileptiform seizures. Tolerance to alcohol is reduced.
Usage in pregnancy and lactation:
An increased risk of congenital malformations associated with use of minor tranquillizers (meprobamate, chlordiazepoxide, and diazepam) during the first trimester of pregnancy has been suggested in several studies. Because use of these drugs is rarely a matter of urgency, their use during this period should almost always be avoided. The possibility that a woman of childbearing potential may be pregnant at the time of institution of therapy should be considered. Patients should be advised that if they become pregnant during therapy or intend to become pregnant they should communicate with their physicians about the desirability of discontinuing the drug.
Meprobamate passes the placental barrier. It is present both in umbilical-cord blood at or near maternal plasma levels and in, breast milk of lactating mothers at concentrations two to four times that of maternal plasma. When use of meprobamate is contemplated in breastfeeding patients the drug’s higher concentrations in breast milk as compared to maternal plasma levels should be considered.

KNOWN SYMPTOMS OF OVERDOSAGE AND PARTICULARS OF ITS TREATMENT:
General supportive measures should be employed along with gastric lavage. IV fluids should be administered and an adequate airway maintained.

CONDITIONS OF REGISTRATION:
To be imposed by the Council.

IDENTIFICATION:
EQUAGESIC* tablets are three layered: the upper layer is yellow and imprinted with “WYETH”the middle layer is white and the lower layer is pink and smooth.

PRESENTATION:
Bottles of 25 tablets.

STORAGE DIRECTIONS:
Store in a cool (below 25°C), dry place.
Keep out of reach of children.

REFERENCE NUMBER:
B 1342 (Act 101/1965)

 

[Danjo]

Well, Ed Parker said of Bruce Lee that after watching you do a technique once, he could then do it as good as you did. The next time he did it, it would be better than you did it. He was a dedicated muther! Regardless of what else is said about him.


Tegner advocated mixing arts before Lee did, and Dante was into that also, so I think it would have happened either way.

I admit that people probably attribute too much to Lee, but I think that there are also plenty that take away from him and dismiss him as a movie star undeservedly.

 

[arnisador]

Acetylsalicylic acid is aspirin, and I thought they hypothesized that this was the agent that caused the problem. Combining aspirin and Meprobamate (more of a sedative) is still done. Ethoheptazine citrate is an opioid analgesic.

The medicine was marketed as a 'headache powder' if memory serves (I may be mistaken).

In any event, I can't see where anyone should be such a master of the martial arts that they intuitively know to avoid aspirin.

 

[Adept]

As far as we know, Bruce died from a bizarre, freak reaction to the drugs he was taking in order to relieve headache pain. This is not something that could have been avoided by any amount of mental 'maturity' or martial expertise. It was as freakish as being struck by a meteor.

I don't know if Bruce was a master, and frankly I don't care. I doubt he would have cared either. What he was, was very influential in the developing martial arts. He was a large public figure after his movie career took off, and he used that popularity and public attention to further his own opinions and philosophies on martial arts, which contradicted with the common thought on the matter. He tried to incorporate those messages into his films, especially the original plot for Game of Death (which was far, far superior to the re-written version). He wasn't the only person with these thoughts and ideas, but he was the most famous.

One should not take anything away from him simply because one does not agree with him, or the hype surrounding him, or his movies. Credit where credit is due. Bruce was an incredibly dedicated martial artist, a naturally skilled person with an immense capacity to learn, and a drive to preach his message to the masses. Let's not try and take that away from him.

 

[Corporal Hicks]

As far as we know, Bruce died from a bizarre, freak reaction to the drugs he was taking in order to relieve headache pain. This is not something that could have been avoided by any amount of mental 'maturity' or martial expertise. It was as freakish as being struck by a meteor.

I don't know if Bruce was a master, and frankly I don't care. I doubt he would have cared either. What he was, was very influential in the developing martial arts. He was a large public figure after his movie career took off, and he used that popularity and public attention to further his own opinions and philosophies on martial arts, which contradicted with the common thought on the matter. He tried to incorporate those messages into his films, especially the original plot for Game of Death (which was far, far superior to the re-written version). He wasn't the only person with these thoughts and ideas, but he was the most famous.

One should not take anything away from him simply because one does not agree with him, or the hype surrounding him, or his movies. Credit where credit is due. Bruce was an incredibly dedicated martial artist, a naturally skilled person with an immense capacity to learn, and a drive to preach his message to the masses. Let's not try and take that away from him.

Great post!

 

[D.Cobb]

You seem to be getting your facts wrong. No offence meant but who said that he beat the hell out of some poor guy just because he beat him at Chi Sao? It just seems like your one of these people who take up the rumors that are heard and use it here without evidence. He didnt want to be a movie star either, he simply wanted to show the beauty of his Chinese culture and he knew the best way to do this was through movies.

What ever his reason for wanting it, he wanted it!

I've read loads of books on him, seen all his films, seen both sides of the story. I'm not suprised there are so many rumors of him being a thug because the martial art community and the so called masters resented his views. Therefore there are going to be stories about him beating students, to make him sound worse.

So because you've read books and seen films, you have a different opinion. The funny part is, you have yours and I have mine, but most of the books and films that you have based your opinion on, are probably the same ones I have based my opinion on.

As for a man who broke down the prejudice in movie making thats hardly the action of a thug.

Doesn't say he was or wasn't. Just says he acheived some of what he set out to do.

He was a big head and I think if I posses the power and skill that he did I would probably be too.
I dont think that he would have wanted you to call him a master anyway, that would not be the way of Jeet Kune Do, as he spoke himself he is always the student as he is always learning. He is only the master of the techniques in which he has learned, he is not a master of other people.

He couldn't be a master of other people, if he wasn't a master of himself.

He considered himself a Martial Artist first not an actor you know, your facts consist of various rumours i.e. he was a womaniser, he was a thug (? justify that?), he beat up students (what a load of crap).

I'm sorry, I didn't say he was a womaniser! I don't know that he was. But if you insist.... :idunno:
I'm not sure what you mean... Do my facts consist of rumours, or is it that my rumours consist of fact.....?

That for example that he beat somebody who beat him at Chi Sao? If It was true, do you know the whole story? Did he hit him for the hell of it, it was he provoked or attacked first? Or maybe your refering to the black belt who challenged him in his school in which he did beat the crap out of then chased him around the building. Believe me I would do that to if somebody comes in to one of my WC classes preaching that it crap. I wouldnt wait for my instructor I would go for it. Challenge sure, but to try show somebody up in their own school isnt on. Anyway thats what made BL change his idea of WC.

No no, go back and read again. I didn't say he was beaten at Chi Sao, I said the newbie got one in. This is actually documented in Bruce Lee Fighting Spirit, by Bruce Thomas.
Actually, it was the fact that when he beat the challenger, he was so puffed out, and his hands hurt so much from punching the other guy in the head that he knew he had to find a fighting system that was more effective than what he had. He shouldn't have blamed it on WC, because he really only had a beginners knowledge of WC.

No proof of him being a good fighter?
What the hell are you talking about? There are video clips of him fighting in black and white movies, him sparring versus black belts. I wouldnt take the films as an example because they are simply films and are biased..
Your facts consists of stupid rumours put about by the 'so-called masters' of Martial Arts who didnt like his ideas because they were new, they were simple and they worked.

So on the one hand there is proof of him being a good fighter, that being video clips of him "Sparring". But as you say, they're not really proof because they are biased. :idunno: Now I'm confused.

Sure he's not as great as alot of people say. His death made him into a legend which is exaggerated with most people who die during their prime. But he's not the man you are making him out to be.

He's not what I make him out to be or what you make him out to be.... Is that what you said, or was it... no wait um :idunno:

I'm sorry but I'm fed up of people throwing their weight about a subject they are no or limited and biased knowledge of..

Man, are you getting frustrated, or did your keyboard malfunction??
Why would you get "fed up" over something like this, when your knowledge of the guy comes from pretty much the same place as mine. The guy's dead, did you know him before he died? Is he related to you in some way, or did he just appear to you and tell you exactly what is truth and what is fiction about him? Oh no, wait!! That was in the movie, NO RETREAT - NO SURRENDER.

Dude, get a life!!

--Dave

 

[D.Cobb]

I wonder if he actually cared for the title of 'master'. He liked tradition but wasnt a slave to it!
Mind you surely somebody with their own system of thinking would count as a master if he created it himself and had the impact that he did. He's not just some random guy who proclaimed himself a black belt (not that there are such things in WC or JKD) but still he had the skill.

Of course he had JKD skill, he invented it. He only had beginner skill in WC.
His biggest skill was self promotion.

--Dave