what is wrong with america today...

[Blotan Hunka]

Didnt the people who left the old world come here BECAUSE they didnt care what the people in europe thought?

 

[sgtmac_46]

Some other quick google searches show us that


10% of America's Households hold 72% of total wealth.

10% of the U.S. Population holds 81% of the country's Real Estate.

10% of the U.S. Population owns 81% of the country's Stock.

10% of the U.S. Population owns 88% of the bonds.

Some aspire, by hard work, to be represented among the 10%. Others aspire to strip the 10% of their work, and redistribute it.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Didnt the people who left the old world come here BECAUSE they didnt care what the people in europe thought?

Most of us still don't. A fact of which many Europes are quite irrate about.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Anything written is open to interpretation. CLaiming you know exactly what was really meant means you claim to know and think exactly like the author of the document. That's a fantasy. It's accurate enough to call it necromancy.

These are arguments you make when you wish to muddy the waters, nothing more. "There's no way of knowing, blah blah blah".

Fact is, anyone telling you they've uncovered the real truth of a document is full of crap.

If you're suggesting that you don't understand how to read a document, then it may be you who is full of crap.

 

[Flying Crane]

I thinkwe often read into the Constitution support for our own personal, moral, political, or whatever opinions or beliefs. Probably because it's easier to push forward a position based on "the Constituion says..." rather than "well I believe..." Who are you? Well the Constituion has Authority and Prestige.

Interesting point. In light of the thread topic, i'm not really sure the Constitution even has a place in the discussion. This is really about personal opinions about what is wrong with this country.

People like to argue that this is the best country going, so quit complaining. While this may be true (another point that is open for argument), it still has plenty wrong with it and it is healthy to recognize this, discuss it and spread ideas that might make it better for all. But again, this is all personal opinion and points of view.

Falling back on the Constitution in this topic sort of doesn't make sense. We are all witnessing events and circumstances that the framers of the Constitution could never have envisioned. It is just rather out of place in the thread.

 

[michaeledward]

Some aspire, by hard work, to be represented among the 10%. Others aspire to strip the 10% of their work, and redistribute it.

There truly is no such thing as a 'Self-Made-Man'. We are all products of our environment.

 

[sgtmac_46]

There truly is no such thing as a 'Self-Made-Man'. We are all products of our environment.

So you would have us all believe. Interesting, however, how some would hold up the achiever as the goal to aspire too, while others want to play to the lowest common denominator. Sorry, doesn't sell.

And it is certainly not true that we are only a product of our environment. More and more we see evidence that our 'makeup' is the deciding factor of success. That some of the wealthiest men came from the humblest beginnings is evidence that it's not strictly 'you're just born in to it'. That's a lie when it was first uttered.

What's more, your belief itself is maladaptive and pathological. If you believe things 'just happen to you', and that you play no role in it, then you will play no role in it. There is such a thing as a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Funny how even the lowliest born member of society who believes that HE is responsible for his destiny, manages to succeed. While those born with advantages, who believe that life is outside their control so often fail.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

Most of us still don't. A fact of which many Europes are quite irrate about.

When did Europe change from a place everybody wanted to leave to {go to America} to a place we should imitate?

 

[sgtmac_46]

When did Europe change from a place everybody wanted to leave to {go to America} to a place we should imitate?

Since Hollywood and leftist intellectuals made it 'trendy'.

What they rarely mention is that Europe has been the source of a great deal of American suffering in the past century. They pulled us in to 2 world wars, and left a HUGE mess in their post-colonial wake. They can save their advice on how to clean up the mess.

 

[Flatlander]

=============
Mod. Note.

Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful. Thank you.

-Dan Bowman-
-MT Senior Moderator-

=============

 

[Sarah]

Well this could get me in trouble, since I am from the outside looking in.....but I am with an American so I have a little experience with you all.

*Seems some have a bit of a 'im superior' attitude, think they are better than everyone else
*Out for myself attitude, doesn’t matter who ya step on to get it
*Seems you like to dictate to others how they should/shouldn’t live there lives

Of course this is not the case with anyone here

Just thought you might like to hear how other country's see American's, as you are not the most popular people in the world......but I still love ya

Really, your not all that bad, you just need to chill out a little, its taking my boyfriend a little while to realize that here in NZ not everyone is out to get ya, in fact some people are more that happy to help you out!

 

[Flying Crane]

Well this could get me in trouble, since I am from the outside looking in.....but I am with an American so I have a little experience with you all.

*Seems some have a bit of a 'im superior' attitude, think they are better than everyone else
*Out for myself attitude, doesn’t matter who ya step on to get it
*Seems you like to dictate to others how they should/shouldn’t live there lives

Of course this is not the case with anyone here

Just thought you might like to hear how other country's see American's, as you are not the most popular people in the world......but I still love ya

Really, your not all that bad, you just need to chill out a little, its taking my boyfriend a little while to realize that here in NZ not everyone is out to get ya, in fact some people are more that happy to help you out!

Thank you for an outsider's input. I was wondering when we might start to get some of that.

 

[michaeledward]

So you would have us all believe. Interesting, however, how some would hold up the achiever as the goal to aspire too, while others want to play to the lowest common denominator. Sorry, doesn't sell.

And it is certainly not true that we are only a product of our environment. More and more we see evidence that our 'makeup' is the deciding factor of success. That some of the wealthiest men came from the humblest beginnings is evidence that it's not strictly 'you're just born in to it'. That's a lie when it was first uttered.

What's more, your belief itself is maladaptive and pathological. If you believe things 'just happen to you', and that you play no role in it, then you will play no role in it. There is such a thing as a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Funny how even the lowliest born member of society who believes that HE is responsible for his destiny, manages to succeed. While those born with advantages, who believe that life is outside their control so often fail.

I posit this is a very limited view of 'environment'.

 

[Martial Tucker]

There truly is no such thing as a 'Self-Made-Man'. We are all products of our environment.

This statement is one of the biggest piles of crap I've come across in recent memory, and its sentiment is a good summary of what is wrong with our country. The implication is that we are helpless passengers in the rudderless ship of life, and have no control over the outcome, and therefore are somehow not responsible for the outcome.

There are countless stories of children born into abject poverty who worked hard and became successful. Similarly, there are as many stories of children born into wealth and privilege who manage to squander everything.
Additionally, there are numerous instances of siblings born into identical circumstances, where one was successful and one was not.

Personally, I'm sick and tired of people blaming circumstances beyond their control for their failings. IMO, the biggest problem this nation faces is that many, if not most people are not willing to admit that they are personally responsible for their lives, their actions, and their outcomes.

This is not to say that those born into poverty or other adverse conditions are not at a severe disadvantage, and have significantly less chance for success. This is undeniable. I wish there were an easy fix for this. I think there is ample evidence that just throwing money at this problem doesn't fix it. The idea that we, as a nation need to devote resources to this area is also undeniable. But at the same time, there needs to be incentives created for correct action, and there needs to be accountability/circumstances for failing to take correct action when resouces have been redirected to you.

 

[Marginal]

These are arguments you make when you wish to muddy the waters, nothing more. "There's no way of knowing, blah blah blah".

At best, we can guess on what the founding fathers would think right now. Most would be horrified by Cheney's recent statements I'm betting. (That is, if you wanna go down that road. Sam Adams for example wasn't a keen proponent of making the president super strong.)

Fact is, each side's of the constitutional arugment's doing the exact same thing. Validating their world view with compatible filters.

If you're suggesting that you don't understand how to read a document, then it may be you who is full of crap.

I'm stating I'm not a necromancer.

 

[Marginal]

Didnt the people who left the old world come here BECAUSE they didnt care what the people in europe thought?

Yes, the criminals that formed up several of the colonies certainly did not.

 

[Marginal]

I think the Constituion is the codification of ideals about freedom,liberty, and responsibility and the role of the state and the citizen. Within it our examples of how to apply those principals. Within it are also the mechanisms to adapt those ideals to new situations arise.

Perhaps, but then you refuse to admit that the founding fathers had crystal balls which enabled them to adress our current societal issues. (Which is what the strict constitutional fundimentalists are basically arguing.) Adaptive mechanisms imply that the document is still a living document, and that the founders recognized that they weren't inerrant.

 

[michaeledward]

This statement is one of the biggest piles of crap I've come across in recent memory, and its sentiment is a good summary of what is wrong with our country. The implication is that we are helpless passengers in the rudderless ship of life, and have no control over the outcome, and therefore are somehow not responsible for the outcome.

There are countless stories of children born into abject poverty who worked hard and became successful. Similarly, there are as many stories of children born into wealth and privilege who manage to squander everything.
Additionally, there are numerous instances of siblings born into identical circumstances, where one was successful and one was not.

Personally, I'm sick and tired of people blaming circumstances beyond their control for their failings. IMO, the biggest problem this nation faces is that many, if not most people are not willing to admit that they are personally responsible for their lives, their actions, and their outcomes.

This is not to say that those born into poverty or other adverse conditions are not at a severe disadvantage, and have significantly less chance for success. This is undeniable. I wish there were an easy fix for this. I think there is ample evidence that just throwing money at this problem doesn't fix it. The idea that we, as a nation need to devote resources to this area is also undeniable. But at the same time, there needs to be incentives created for correct action, and there needs to be accountability/circumstances for failing to take correct action when resouces have been redirected to you.

Again, you seem to have a very limited view on 'environment'. You also seem to be ascribing to this, how did you put it, "biggest piles of crap", much which I am not saying.

The statement was diliberately short. Because I didn't want to muddy the issue with further exposition. Apparently, you have inferred that exposition, whether it was there or not.

Oh, well.

Just be sure, You are making assumptions about things I have not said, claimed, or intended.

And, so you know, I take a bit of offense that you believe that I am part of, or at least my thoughts are, how did you say it, "a good summary of what is wrong with our country".

 

[Martial Tucker]

Again, you seem to have a very limited view on 'environment'. You also seem to be ascribing to this, how did you put it, "biggest piles of crap", much which I am not saying.

The statement was diliberately short. Because I didn't want to muddy the issue with further exposition. Apparently, you have inferred that exposition, whether it was there or not.

Oh, well.

Just be sure, You are making assumptions about things I have not said, claimed, or intended.

And, so you know, I take a bit of offense that you believe that I am part of, or at least my thoughts are, how did you say it, "a good summary of what is wrong with our country".

There is no one that would agree more than me that we are all affected by our environment. My favorite movie is "It's a Wonderful Life" because the central theme of the movie is that we have an impact, and are impacted by
everyone we meet.

You made the short, conclusive statement "we are all products of our environment". The way you worded this makes if very difficult to infer anything other than the sentiment that "environment" is by far the dominant, if not sole determinant of our fate. Again, I think that is crap, for the reasons that I mentioned in my previous post.

I guess I naively believe that success in life is not about "what happens to you", but rather "how you react to what happens to you".

Please do us a favor. I was not the only member who took issue with your statement. When you post a short, broad statement like "we are products of our environment", you leave much room for interpretation. This is too easy, because it also leaves you maximum "wiggle room" to claim that you were misunderstood. How about if you get specific in your statements. Exactly what DID you mean with your statement, and WHY do you believe this?

 

[mantis]

what's up with the environment stuff
can any of you guys put that in a real life example to explain how that's related to what's wrong with american today?
thanks