What is with slow Wing Chun than fast Wing Chun?

[obi_juan_salami]

Some of the precepts of my lineage that trouble me include:

1. Insistence that memorizing more and more stuff, such as a seemingly endless progression of Chi-sau "sections" and "lat-sau sections as well as the forms and drills will make you an ever better practitioner. Many fall into the trap that if they learn enough of the advanced, "super-secret" techniques they will have nearly magical skills.

I believe in the reverse, that is that the simplest stuff, well trained is the most important.

2. Adhering to certain principles in an absolutist way, such as never withdrawing force in an exchange. For every rule posited, which are a good foundation, I have found important exceptions.

3. Arrogance toward other systems, and a reluctance to share openly and test what we practice with other practitioners.... Excessive secrecy is a huge problem in Wing Chun.

4. The belief that your Sifu is the absolute authority and can't be beat. That mind-set only turns the sifu into an authoritarian fraud who will not openly train and share with others. The truth is that anyone can be hit, especially as you get older. A good coach doesn't pretend that he knows everything and has god-like powers. Instead a good coach is just that... i.e. really good at coaching!

Anyway, Obi I just threw this out in short order, so it's not very complete or profound, but maybe it's good enough to let you know where I'm coming from. Now I'm off to my WC teach class. ironic, eh? Let's talk later. See you in the posts below.

Thanks for the reply I agree with you on most of these. Can i ask what lineage you are? if I had to guess a Leung Ting variant?

1. Our Sifu always promotes quality over quantity. It's not how much you know, its how well you know what you DO know. Attributes are more important than memorized drills. He also says the simple answers are often the best ones so bang on

2. I think this one might be a result of many not knowing the material in enough depth. either they become teachers too early, neglect their training or are really only beginners but voicing their opinions. Whatever the reason i was always taught there are rules at the start so that you can develop good habits but then once you understand it all as a big picture, why the rules are there in the first place and how they interact with other rules/principles then you can bend and or break them depending on the situation.

3. This is a complicated one. It can be thought of in a number of ways. if you were poor and really wanted an expensive new car, let's say, and you worked really hard and saved your money and finally years later you could afford it and went out to buy one. then several people demanded you must share it and let them drive it and carpool etc. some would not be very happy (the emphasis on the time, effort and work it took for you to acquire it). The other end is what if it was your Sifu's wish that you don't share certain things that he trusted you with? nothing to do with the wing chun, the techniques or mentality but rather a question of trust between two people. the other thing is, not all Wing Chun is the same and/or can be used effectively together. So in some instances, its useless for the people receiving the information anyway. without going on and on, although i understand the importance of strength in community, preservation, growing together, my point is there may be some reasons other than secret squirrel mentality people may not want to share. sparring and testing with other lineages and or styles can be healthy though and every lineage and style has its strengths and weakness'.

4. Agreed. A good teacher should be good at teaching and bringing the best out of their students, rather than a cult-leader

hope your class went well!

 

[geezer]

Thanks for the reply I agree with you on most of these. Can i ask what lineage you are? if I had to guess a Leung Ting variant?

1. Our Sifu always promotes quality over quantity. It's not how much you know, its how well you know what you DO know. Attributes are more important than memorized drills. He also says the simple answers are often the best ones so bang on

2. I think this one might be a result of many not knowing the material in enough depth. either they become teachers too early, neglect their training or are really only beginners but voicing their opinions. Whatever the reason i was always taught there are rules at the start so that you can develop good habits but then once you understand it all as a big picture, why the rules are there in the first place and how they interact with other rules/principles then you can bend and or break them depending on the situation.

3. This is a complicated one. It can be thought of in a number of ways. if you were poor and really wanted an expensive new car, let's say, and you worked really hard and saved your money and finally years later you could afford it and went out to buy one. then several people demanded you must share it and let them drive it and carpool etc. some would not be very happy (the emphasis on the time, effort and work it took for you to acquire it). The other end is what if it was your Sifu's wish that you don't share certain things that he trusted you with? nothing to do with the wing chun, the techniques or mentality but rather a question of trust between two people. the other thing is, not all Wing Chun is the same and/or can be used effectively together. So in some instances, its useless for the people receiving the information anyway. without going on and on, although i understand the importance of strength in community, preservation, growing together, my point is there may be some reasons other than secret squirrel mentality people may not want to share. sparring and testing with other lineages and or styles can be healthy though and every lineage and style has its strengths and weakness'.

4. Agreed. A good teacher should be good at teaching and bringing the best out of their students, rather than a cult-leader

hope your class went well!

Well, Obi you pretty much nailed it.

...and yes, I was a direct "disciple" of Leung Ting for about a dozen years starting when he made his first trip to the USA in spring of 1980. I stopped training MA for a long time in the 90s and then started up again in 2007 with my old si-dai who had also trained with LT here in the States and with the EWTO in Germany, and had passed well beyond me in skill and knowledge.

Now I'm pretty much on my own and teach a few people Latosa Escrima and what I call "Adaptive Wing Chun" with the help of my assistant who trained in the Sam Kwok/Yip Chun lineage.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

2. ... never withdrawing force in an exchange.

The word "never" is the problem. One exception for this doctrine (run your opponent down) is:

- Move your body out of your opponent's incoming path, borrow your opponent's force, add in your own force, and lead him into the emptiness (kiss the dirt).

"Run your opponent down (-><-)" is a good strategy. But "lead your opponent into the emptiness (<-<-)" is also a good strategy. I believe one should train both and not just training one without training the other.

 

[OffendedOnyx]

Why is some wing chun slow and some wing chun fast?

Why is some wing chun slow like this?

Well other wing chun are fast like this?

Hey!!!!!

Wing Chun can be practiced fast and slow.
Slow Wing Chun is great for beginners focusing on movement logic and myofascial development.
Slow Wing Chun can also be used as a warm up at the beginning of a training session.
Slow Wing Chun forms can also be a form of meditation and are often accompanied with visual imagery/mind painting.

Fast Wing Chun is good for speed.
Fast Wing Chun is good for a life or death situation.
Fast Wing Chun is good for the babes.

Have you ever seen hard and soft Wing Chun?

DUDE!

 

[OffendedOnyx]

Again you misunderstand or misinterpret. Siu Lim Tao can also be performed in 4mins that's not the point.

And here is the 108 Taiji form done in 24mins+

OMG!!!

You are so triggering!
Wing Chun is not bound by anything BRO
Certainly not time
You can rip through all 15 unarmed forms as fast as you want
Or you can mini-put through all 15 unarmed forms as awarely as you want