What is with slow Wing Chun than fast Wing Chun?

[Callen]

Wing Chun is meant to be effective and reactive with offense. But it is only as effective as the practitioner. You'll see guys 20 years deep in the art and they will take 30mins just to do Siu Lim Tao. Why? So they don't need to think about using the techniques if they have to use them.

For some people, the effective and reactive offensive actions you are referring to are the byproduct of properly training the system as a whole to develop skill.

It is because by doing so it becomes instinct and you don't need to think, especially considering SLT/SNT is the foundation of Wing Chun.

From my discoveries, the many interpretations of WC/VT/WT can make it a bit difficult when discussing concepts and ideas that aren’t as universal and declarative as we would like them to be. This also means the definitions and purpose of forms can differ depending on the lineage.

In several lineages SLT/SNT isn’t so much about instinct or ingraining “techniques" so the practitioner doesn’t have to think about them if he/she has to use them; but more about the practice of building the mechanics of the system. Learning and memorizing shapes is just on the surface level, a very small aspect of the form. The shapes are worthless without the context of the system’s mechanics that support them. So within this interpretation, it can also be said that the foundation that SLT/SNT teaches is the development of the core mechanics and training attributes that are continually found and reinforced throughout the entire system. Shapes being simply one part of the many fundamentals of Wing Chun.

For many practitioners the “A, B, C’s” of the alphabet in SLT/SNT are concepts such as: learning proper elbow placement (which paves the way for the mechanics that drive the punch), the purpose of the action that each shape helps to create, the importance of non-application attributes like training each side at the same time, covering from a low to high position, replacing the hands to hit, recovering from a lost position, training “elbow first”, foundational rooting, etc… In this way of thinking, shapes are the expression of the mechanics.

It isn't ironic that numerous Sifus who stress SLT and taking longer and longer to do it (especially the tan sao, hun sao, woo sao, then fook sao, hun, woo) also are proponents of bare knuckle sparring.

Interesting. In what ways do you believe this section is specifically linked to bare knuckle sparring, and which sifu are you talking about?

 

[wckf92]

For some people, the effective and reactive offensive actions you are referring to are the byproduct of properly training the system as a whole to develop skill.


From my discoveries, the many interpretations of WC/VT/WT can make it a bit difficult when discussing concepts and ideas that aren’t as universal and declarative as we would like them to be. This also means the definitions and purpose of forms can differ depending on the lineage.

In several lineages SLT/SNT isn’t so much about instinct or ingraining “techniques" so the practitioner doesn’t have to think about them if he/she has to use them; but more about the practice of building the mechanics of the system. Learning and memorizing shapes is just on the surface level, a very small aspect of the form. The shapes are worthless without the context of the system’s mechanics that support them. So within this interpretation, it can also be said that the foundation that SLT/SNT teaches is the development of the core mechanics and training attributes that are continually found and reinforced throughout the entire system. Shapes being simply one part of the many fundamentals of Wing Chun.

For many practitioners the “A, B, C’s” of the alphabet in SLT/SNT are concepts such as: learning proper elbow placement (which paves the way for the mechanics that drive the punch), the purpose of the action that each shape helps to create, the importance of non-application attributes like training each side at the same time, covering from a low to high position, replacing the hands to hit, recovering from a lost position, training “elbow first”, foundational rooting, etc… In this way of thinking, shapes are the expression of the mechanics.


Interesting. In what ways do you believe this section is specifically linked to bare knuckle sparring, and which sifu are you talking about?

Great post Callen.
Yeah I concur 100%. The bulk of the WC/VT/WT communities' "arguments" stem from the varied interpretations of the forms and their meanings. Some see literal "one for one" movements aka "techniques"; some understand the vital role of attribute development and their impact to learning or internalizing the system as a whole.

 

[Xue Sheng]

It depends on whether you follow the MA guideline that "1 single move should coordinate with either 1 inhale, or 1 exhale".

Can you image that you throw a punch with exhale, inhale, and exhale again? You will never do that in fighting. So why should you do that in training?

As for taijiquan, I have no idea what you are talking about, just breath. As for Wing Chun, that would be silly

But with that, I did have a xingyiquan shifu who made sure we could hit, with power on both inhale and exhale. His thoughts on that were, if you can only hit me on an exhale, I'm going to hit you right after you throw a punch or a kick, because you would have to inhale before you could try and hit me again

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

As for taijiquan, I have no idea what you are talking about, just breath. As for Wing Chun, that would be silly

Let's talk about MA in general.

If A takes 5 minutes to finish his 108 moves form by following the guideline that "1 move equal to 1 breath" (either inhale, or exhale). B will take 20 minutes to finish the same 108 moves form. That mean B takes about 4 breaths on each move.

This imply that B does a single punch (or a single kick) by doing inhale, exhale, inhale, exhale (or exhale, inhale, exhale, inhale)? Is that correct way to train any MA system?

Will you swing your baseball bat in slow motion by doing inhale, exhale, inhale, exhale, or just 1 swing with 1 breath?

 

[moonhill99]

The thing is some people say being stiff and rigged will slow you down and your striking power will be less powerful. They say proper body biomechanics and breathing is key not going in being tense and stiff that it will not make your punch more powerful but weaker.

Some say to be relax and only tense up on impact.

This article seem to bash Karate that being sniff and tense is not helping with the striking power but making it worse.

How to Drastically Improve the Power of Your Karate Punch?

Discover the principles of force generations and take your punching power to the next level.

www.thekaratelifestyle.com

 

[moonhill99]

Firstly, we are comparing different arts. This isn't to minimize the importance of breathing but I don't think you understand the concept. Do you practice Wing Chun? And no it isn't about one move coinciding with an inhale or exhale. It is about being in such a relaxed focused state that you don't just perform the movements, you become them with control of breathing.

The philosophy being calm and relax than a tense body and being rigged will slow you down and use lot of energy and you be tired trying be in that forum for long time.

But Japanese karate is more tense and rigged compared to even Okinawa karate or Kung fu.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

This article seem to bash Karate that being sniff and tense is not helping with the striking power but making it worse.

Instead of writing a long article to describe power generation, the writer can simplify it as:

All power come from

- bottom to up.
- back to front.

The

- correct way is body push/pull arm,
- wrong way is to freeze body and only move arm.

 

[geezer]

Instead of writing a long article to describe power generation, the writer can simplify it as:

All power come from

- bottom to up.
- back to front.

All power? ...This is not always true. Power can be generated rising and falling, moving forward (outward) and contracting (inward) and rotating ...or a combination of these.

Regarding such sweeping statements...

Always remember never to say always and never!

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

All power? ...This is not always true. Power can be generated rising and falling, moving forward (outward) and contracting (inward) and rotating ...or a combination of these.

Regarding such sweeping statements...

Always remember never to say always and never!

You are right, Words such as "always", "never", "should", "must", ... are not proper to be used most of the time.

To use rotation to generate power is a good counter example.

 

[geezer]

I am shocked this is unknown to you if you've been practicing since 1973....

The guy you directed this at, "Kung-fu Wang"aka John Wang, says he privately trained Wing Chun in the early '70s while studying at UT, Austin but has not continued in WC. He is best known as a pioneering Shuai Chiao practitioner and coach, having trained directly under the legendary master Chang Dong-Sheng, and he also has considerable experience in Chinese Long Fist and other forms of Chinese Boxing.

We greatly enjoy his thought provoking input here ....as contrarian as it may sometimes be to those with a text-book WC perspective.

As for myself, I've been in WC for a long time ...on and off since '79, but in recent years have come to question some of the widely held WC "doctrines". But then, I guess I've always been one to question things people tell me.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

in recent years have come to question some of the widely held WC "doctrines".

I also like to question MA doctrines, In another forum, people talk about that one should never:

- move knee beyond toes.
- use brute force.
- bend head down.
- extend hand and pass feet.

I gave counter examples such as, sometime we do need to

- move knee beyond toes to do certain task.
- use brute force to lift some heavy object.
- bend head down to pick up a $100 bill.
- extend hand and pass feet to catch a moving shoping cart.

Here is an example of "knee pass toes".

 

[Xue Sheng]

I also like to question MA doctrines, In another forum, people talk about that one should never:

- move knee beyond toes.
- use brute force.
- bend head down.
- extend hand and pass feet.

I gave counter examples such as, sometime we do need to

- move knee beyond toes to do certain task.
- use brute force to lift some heavy object.
- bend head down to pick up a $100 bill.
- extend hand and pass feet to catch a moving shoping cart.

Here is an example of "knee pass toes".

I think when they are saying not to move knees past toes they are taking about stances like these

And any physical therapist will likely agree with that

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I think when they are saying not to move knees past toes they are taking about stances like these

And any physical therapist will likely agree with that

The question is which training will give you more benefit?

1. Static training - Never move knee pass toes.
2. Dynamic training - Move knee pass toes, lost balance, you then regain your balance back.

IMO, 1 < 2.

 

[drop bear]

I think when they are saying not to move knees past toes they are taking about stances like these

And any physical therapist will likely agree with that

Knees over toes is now a thing.

 

[Xue Sheng]

The question is which training will give you more benefit?

1. Static training - Never move knee pass toes.
2. Dynamic training - Move knee pass toes, lost balance, you then regain your balance back.

IMO, 1 < 2.

That, as far as I can tell, was not the question I was dealing with, it was the knee past the toe thing. And both static and dynamic training are useful

 

[Xue Sheng]

Knees over toes is now a thing.

No, knee past the toes under certain positions cause stress on the knee joint that is unhealthy, that has been a thing for at least 30 years or more

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

That, as far as I can tell, was not the question I was dealing with, it was the knee past the toe thing. And both static and dynamic training are useful

When someone said, "Never move knee pass toes." The word "never" bother me.

A. Static training - Never move knee pass toes.
B. Dynamic training - Move knee pass toes, lost balance, you then regain your balance back.

Not saying to train A is not important. But to train both A and B is better than only train A.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If we come back to our thread discussion, can someone comment the following?

Will you swing your baseball bat in slow motion by doing inhale, exhale, inhale, exhale, or just 1 swing with 1 breath?

 

[obi_juan_salami]

The guy you directed this at, "Kung-fu Wang"aka John Wang, says he privately trained Wing Chun in the early '70s while studying at UT, Austin but has not continued in WC. He is best known as a pioneering Shuai Chiao practitioner and coach, having trained directly under the legendary master Chang Dong-Sheng, and he also has considerable experience in Chinese Long Fist and other forms of Chinese Boxing.

We greatly enjoy his thought provoking input here ....as contrarian as it may sometimes be to those with a text-book WC perspective.

As for myself, I've been in WC for a long time ...on and off since '79, but in recent years have come to question some of the widely held WC "doctrines". But then, I guess I've always been one to question things people tell me.

Which wing chun doctrines have you come to question? just out of curiosity.

 

[geezer]

Which wing chun doctrines have you come to question? just out of curiosity.

Some of the precepts of my lineage that trouble me include:

1. Insistence that memorizing more and more stuff, such as a seemingly endless progression of Chi-sau "sections" and "lat-sau sections as well as the forms and drills will make you an ever better practitioner. Many fall into the trap that if they learn enough of the advanced, "super-secret" techniques they will have nearly magical skills.

I believe in the reverse, that is that the simplest stuff, well trained is the most important.

2. Adhering to certain principles in an absolutist way, such as never withdrawing force in an exchange. For every rule posited, which are a good foundation, I have found important exceptions.

3. Arrogance toward other systems, and a reluctance to share openly and test what we practice with other practitioners.... Excessive secrecy is a huge problem in Wing Chun.

4. The belief that your Sifu is the absolute authority and can't be beat. That mind-set only turns the sifu into an authoritarian fraud who will not openly train and share with others. The truth is that anyone can be hit, especially as you get older. A good coach doesn't pretend that he knows everything and has god-like powers. Instead a good coach is just that... i.e. really good at coaching!

Anyway, Obi I just threw this out in short order, so it's not very complete or profound, but maybe it's good enough to let you know where I'm coming from. Now I'm off to my WC teach class. ironic, eh? Let's talk later. See you in the posts below.