What is the excitement in belts?

[Ceicei]

This reminds me of a sort of a test I went through last year. It was not a belt test, but definitely was a type of a physical test. It not only tested me physically, but also tested me mentally. This test pushed me to nearly the breaking point; I wasn't sure I wanted to go further because of frustration, but I had to will myself to keep on going. My instructor was there offering encouragement for me and the others along the way.

Some students tried to get away by "cutting corners" when they thought they weren't watched. Some simply stopped in the middle and would not go further. Others (like myself) kept on trying, even when some of the obstacles along the way were made extremely difficult on purpose.

Basically, that physical test brought out a lot from me that I never thought was possible.

I suppose as an analogy, for some students, being tested for their next belt level (especially among the higher ranks) could challenge a person more than under ordinary training situations. Being challenged shows to both the student and the instructor how stress might be handled.

- Ceicei

 

[IWishToLearn]

I would love for someone that has high level belts to explain me the excitement in it.
I don't know if in Tai Chi there are belts, but for sure not where I study it. They give out certificate when you learn and pass a test per each form (8-24-48-long-sword...and so on).
The other day my teacher asked me if I wanted him to set a day for me to take a test with the Master. I guess I kinda disappointed him when I said it didn't matter to me. I am there to learn and what I learn is in my head and muscles, I really don't care about having a piece of paper saying that I know what I know.

So...am I missing something in here? Do I have a wrong attitude about the whole belt thing?

Everybody has their own reasons for training - yours are no less valid than anyone else's.

 

[Xue Sheng]

OK I can no longer resist and since no one has yet said it

Daniel: What kind of belt do you have?

Mr. Miyagi: J.C. Penny $3.98


A belt is just that a belt. It is the person that wears one to show rank or does not wear one to show rank that makes all the difference.

 

[Rich Parsons]

I would love for someone that has high level belts to explain me the excitement in it.
I don't know if in Tai Chi there are belts, but for sure not where I study it. They give out certificate when you learn and pass a test per each form (8-24-48-long-sword...and so on).
The other day my teacher asked me if I wanted him to set a day for me to take a test with the Master. I guess I kinda disappointed him when I said it didn't matter to me. I am there to learn and what I learn is in my head and muscles, I really don't care about having a piece of paper saying that I know what I know.

So...am I missing something in here? Do I have a wrong attitude about the whole belt thing?

I study two differnet FMA's. One has belts and the the other does not.

I enjoy them both for the art in itself. I do have some rank in one in a belt level, and in the other I have been told I can teach.

Personally I like no rank, and to let people just play with each other to see where they stand at that moment on that day.

 

[jks9199]

Belts, patches, and other indicia of skill are tools; they allow both the student and the teacher to have some idea of where their skills lie. They're also goals or mileposts, but they shouldn't ever be seen as the end of the road or the last milepost.

As others have said, belt tests also are a way to apply pressure to students. I once was responsible for failing a student during their belt testing; they were unable to remember and perform earlier forms. Stress showed that they weren't really ready, since they might have been called on to demonstrate or even instruct lower rank students.

In the system I train in, there are 4 belt levels (white, green, brown and black, with 10 levels of black belt). When I work with students from different schools, I know, based on their belt level, roughly where they stand and what they should know. But the difference in skill should also be apparent when I work with them... Too often, it's not.

 

[Last Fearner]

Personally, I think this issue of "belts or no belts" has been beat to death here on MT...
:deadhorse
...but since it keeps getting brought up, I guess it warrants further discussion.

As many insightful individuals have mentioned here, there are many positive reasons for using belts. Those who raise the most fuss claim all sorts of "evilness" and "egos" attached to belts. This is a fallacy. The ego exists in the person - with or without the belt. A belt simply gives them a materialistic object upon which to focus their faults. This does not make the belt bad, or people who use them wrong.

If any of you have seen the movie "Throw Momma from the Train" with Billy Crystal, and Danny DeVito, you might remember a scene about the coins. Crystal played a writing teacher named Larry, and DeVito was one of his students named Owen. Owen was showing Larry his coin collection. They were simply nickels, dimes, and quarters of no particular worth - - except to Owen. Larry was confused, and thought Owen was a bit silly for collecting coins of no great value.

Then, Owen explained to Larry that the coins reminded him of his father who was no longer alive. Every time his father took him places when he was young, he let Owen keep the change. He could tell you where he got each coin, and what he and his father had done that day. Larry suddenly realized that the coin collection wasn't so foolish, and the true worth of the coins was personal between Owen and his father.

Belts are personal between an instructor and the student. They represent memories, hardships, pleasant times, and a learning process that is shared from teacher to pupil. Can you learn without them - - yes, of course. Can you remember your lessons without looking at a belt - - probably. However, is the true value of a belt what anyone else thinks about it - - no. Go buy yours at J.C. Penny if you like. I'd rather get mine presented to me from my teacher. My 5th Dan test was very special to me because it was the first test that my father ever attended, and the last one, since he died the following year. My belt is displayed at my school. I would not have attained that belt if I did not possess a certain level of skill, and others who see it understand that, but its true value is understood only by me.

Some people make the mistake of equating belts to knowledge and skill. This is obviously not true in that you can learn the same knowledge without the belt. The belt can, however, "represent" the knowledge, and experienced gained at a point in your training. This is not the case in all schools who might hand out belts like candy, but at least in my school, a student is not promoted until they have demonstrated a minimum level of knowledge and skill. Thus, when you have "earned" the belt, you have advanced equally in knowledge and skill.

The true test of a Martial Artist (in my opinion) is to learn the lesson that the belt is not the focus of your goals, but there is nothing wrong with the marking of attaining those goals with belts and certificates. We must learn to let go of the inappropriate value placed on belts, without feeling the need to dispense with belts in order to demonstrate that you have learned that lesson. Let each student experience the belts, then learn the lesson for not getting too wrapped up in the belts in their own time.

I believe the mistake would be to twist the lesson into a demeaning attack on belts, and lead others into their first day of training with a misguided sense of enlightenment over the desire to learn more than to receive a belt. The lessons, knowledge, and skill are very important, but the relationship with your teacher, and your respect for the Art is much more important. A truly enlightened student can focus on learning while still wearing a belt that was awarded by his teacher. If my teacher offered for me to test for any belt, I would value the knowledge taught more than the belt itself, but I would be honored to accept the belt. In time, the belt would have as much personal value to me because it came from my teacher.

There is a saying in the Bible in Mathew 7:6 "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you."

The swine do not know the value of the pearls. Their main focus is food and if they can not see the worth in it for their nourishment, they will disregard it and trample it under their feet. The pearls have value beyond the immediate nourishment. They can be used to purchase many things including food, but only when you find another person who values the pearls in the same way in order to make a sale or trade. Belts have great value to those who understand their true worth, and it is shared by others who value them as well. While the belt can represent the knowledge gained, the true value of the belt is separate from this issue.

This is my perspective on this subject. :asian:
CM D.J. Eisenhart

 

[exile]

If my teacher offered for me to test for any belt, I would value the knowledge taught more than the belt itself, but I would be honored to accept the belt. In time, the belt would have as much personal value to me because it came from my teacher.

This is my perspective on this subject. :asian:
CM D.J. Eisenhart

LF's comments here capture what I also think of as the true value of the belt. It's kind of a symbol of a covenant between you and your instructor. It's not just a recognition of skill and knowledge; there's something more going on---it's a kind of public declaration that your instructor sees you as living part of the continuation of the art. The instructor is, in effect, willing to going out on a limb to affirm to the rest of the MA community that you are a worthy exponent of the art at a certain standard; and that in turn creates a kind of responsibility in you, the belt recipient, to validate the trust that your instructor has shown in you. It's too bad that it doesn't work that way in all MA schools, but that's the idea in the ideal case, I think...

 

[cfr]

Why should you feel the need to receive something saying "you did well so far here's the reward" when you know that you still have alot to work to reach that point that really will give you an inner satisfaction?

For those of us who don't train where belts are given, the reward is being able to come back next week and train what still needs improvement, not a belt.

Today I practiced the stance that gives more problems (snake creeps down) and I noticed I was going a tiny bit lower than I used to. I stopped the form training and I started jumping all over my den for the happiness...a recognition for doing good from someone who cannot actually know what is really good for me can't make me happy.

Im sure lots of us understand your "den jumping". Congrats on the improvement! Im in agreement with you, the recognition from someone else is nothing compared to that you have yourself.

Of course this is just my point of view and I don't intend to put down or offend all MAists who have and are proud of their belts. I do respect them because I do know that behind those belts there is always a hard work and straggle to reach one's limits.

Nor do I. I respect the time/ effort/ work MSists put into their training, not their belt level.

All this being said, I have two boys (one almost 3 and one in the oven). Since the palces I train dont train children, Im sure in a few years they (quite possibly me too) will wind up in a school that uses belts. My whole attitude/ thought process may change at that time, we'll see.

Cool ideas!

 

[Phoenix44]

Some token of positive reinforcement is nice, even for adults. But to paraphrase my partner, it's nice if you have your second degree black belt after six years of training...as long as you realize you've only been training for six years.

 

[Tames D]

When I was young it was exciting to have a black belt. It was an official validation for something I worked hard for. But as I got older it wasn't so important anymore. I hardly ever wear it now. It's kind of like my College degree's, When I first got them I had to post them on the wall and now it's just not that important. I have my validation.

 

[Shotgun Buddha]

Belts are useful mostly from a teaching point of view. People learn better when a subject is broken down into smaller, easily-recognisable chunks.
You give someone something they can practice and understand, and then have them attempt to apply that information.
Belt systems can be useful in that regard, because they allow you to regulate the syllabus more thoroughly, and to break it down into recognisable chunks. The recognisable part is especially important, because the student needs to be be able to at first seperate the different segments to absorb the, before putting it all back together.
If its not broken down, the human brain has trouble absorbing it, and will sieze on random bits and pieces, rather than on core principles.

The danger of belt systems is that they can easily just become rote learning, and the student never learns to apply the knowlege, and put it all back together. So its important to balance it out with training methods such as sparring and drills.

 

[Grenadier]

The belt system is a good thing. It's a very useful tool when it comes to being able to help people in the martial arts progress, especially since many people are going to need to see something tangible in order to avoid frustration.

Now, is someone getting frustrated at the lack of tangible progress (e.g. belts, certificates, etc) considered the "ideal martial artist?" Probably not. After all, we, as martial artists, are supposed to be above all of that, and are only supposed to be in it for the training.

However, if we were to demand this of everyone who partakes in the martial arts, there would be very few people left, and sometimes, we need to remember, that the numbers games do make a huge difference.

 

[charyuop]

I read all the posts and so far it seems to me that my question hasn't been fully answered...well, it was answered, but not with a real reason.
I understand the position of who (sorry don't recall who) said the belt is a point of union between the teacher and the student. I can see why a teacher should be proud in giving out a belt as a sign of success in teaching and as a sign of his knowledge being passed over to "the next generation".
I can even understand a real use in marking a person that apart from the teacher is able to teach to others...but in this case 1 belt would be enough (i.e. black belt).
But mostly everyone stated that belts are a usuful tool in teaching because it marks the knowledge that you reached and gives you something that makes you wanna go on.

I will take a certificate if that comes, but it will end up forgotten in a drawer. It is the daily practice that reminds me my progress and the improving of my progress which will make me proud and the need to perfect what I already know that will make me go ahead and not quit.
In my opinion a belt can't do all that, thus can't give all that satisfaction...on the contrary a belt is used as a goal and once you reach a goal you get a sense of satisfaction which might slow down your progress.

 

[Shotgun Buddha]

I read all the posts and so far it seems to me that my question hasn't been fully answered...well, it was answered, but not with a real reason.
I understand the position of who (sorry don't recall who) said the belt is a point of union between the teacher and the student. I can see why a teacher should be proud in giving out a belt as a sign of success in teaching and as a sign of his knowledge being passed over to "the next generation".
I can even understand a real use in marking a person that apart from the teacher is able to teach to others...but in this case 1 belt would be enough (i.e. black belt).
But mostly everyone stated that belts are a usuful tool in teaching because it marks the knowledge that you reached and gives you something that makes you wanna go on.

I will take a certificate if that comes, but it will end up forgotten in a drawer. It is the daily practice that reminds me my progress and the improving of my progress which will make me proud and the need to perfect what I already know that will make me go ahead and not quit.
In my opinion a belt can't do all that, thus can't give all that satisfaction...on the contrary a belt is used as a goal and once you reach a goal you get a sense of satisfaction which might slow down your progress.

Hmmm, not exactly. I didn't say belts were a motivational tool, I said they were an educational one. Its got nothing to with the student feeling all happy about achieving a goal. Its just that its easier and more effective to teach people a subject if you break it into segments, and the belt system is a useful way of doing that. In alot of cases thats done poorly, but thats not the fault of the tool, its a fault in how the tool is applied.

 

[bushidomartialarts]

I read all the posts and so far it seems to me that my question hasn't been fully answered...well, it was answered, but not with a real reason.

the reason is simple: most people are motivated by regular recognition of their accomplishments. belt accomplish this, thus motivating them to continue training.

we're all very glad that you've risen to a point where you don't need outside motivation to pursue your training. for most mortals, though, the belts are a very helpful tool.

 

[shesulsa]

Progressive goal setting is an important and often missing skill. One should feel good about meeting their goals but not lose sight of the need to set more. Some have a problem with that.

 

[Grenadier]

Hmmm, not exactly. I didn't say belts were a motivational tool, I said they were an educational one. Its got nothing to with the student feeling all happy about achieving a goal.

I will strongly disagree here. As I stated earlier, many people do need that little pat on the back along the way. If this isn't done, many of those individuals will lose interest, and simply drop out.

There's an old saying, that a small percentage of your students are going to "get it," no matter how bad of an instructor you may be. A similarly small percentage of your students are never going to "get it," no matter how good of an instructor you may be. The remainder (a large percentage), are possibly going to blossom, depending on how good of an instructor you may be, and how you cater to them.

If we were to dump the belt system entirely, and only cater to that hard core of students (a small percentage), then many of your "bulk" students are simply going to disappear.

Are these "bulk" students going to be as good as your best students? Probably not, but at least they're making progress, and are still there because they are interested. Using the belt system does help keep many of these students interested.

In the end, many of those "bulk" students do have a chance to become part of your "great" students, but you have to give them a chance to get there. Otherwise, you've tossed away many a potential great one.

To put it even more bluntly, sure, a two color belt (white and black) school that only caters to the hardcore student, is going to produce a larger percentage of higher quality students, but the total number of students they end up having is a small number.

 

[bushidomartialarts]

To put it even more bluntly, sure, a two color belt (white and black) school that only caters to the hardcore student, is going to produce a larger percentage of higher quality students, but the total number of students they end up having is a small number.

Not sure I'd agree with this point. Most behavioral studies seem to show that regularly spaced goals with recognition help people achieve more.

Put another way, a white/black school will produce a number of quality students equal to the number of students who 'got it' from day one. A school with a wide spectrum of belts will product that number of quality students, plus many more who were able to get there through the motivation and recognition provided by multiple belts.

Shesulsa said it elegantly earlier: progressive goal setting is important. Belts provide this.

 

[Shotgun Buddha]

I will strongly disagree here. As I stated earlier, many people do need that little pat on the back along the way. If this isn't done, many of those individuals will lose interest, and simply drop out.

There's an old saying, that a small percentage of your students are going to "get it," no matter how bad of an instructor you may be. A similarly small percentage of your students are never going to "get it," no matter how good of an instructor you may be. The remainder (a large percentage), are possibly going to blossom, depending on how good of an instructor you may be, and how you cater to them.

If we were to dump the belt system entirely, and only cater to that hard core of students (a small percentage), then many of your "bulk" students are simply going to disappear.

Are these "bulk" students going to be as good as your best students? Probably not, but at least they're making progress, and are still there because they are interested. Using the belt system does help keep many of these students interested.

In the end, many of those "bulk" students do have a chance to become part of your "great" students, but you have to give them a chance to get there. Otherwise, you've tossed away many a potential great one.

To put it even more bluntly, sure, a two color belt (white and black) school that only caters to the hardcore student, is going to produce a larger percentage of higher quality students, but the total number of students they end up having is a small number.

I never stated that we should dismiss the belt system. I was in fact arguing IN FAVOUR of it. I was however stating that their primary purpose should be for teaching, rather than motivation.
I just don't think that the educational use of a syllabus system should take second place to the motivational side of it, something which does happen alot.
The motivation is a nice bonus, but the primary goal should be imparting the knowlegde as effectively as possible, and then doing drills and sparring to help apply that knowledge.

 

[bushidomartialarts]

I never stated that we should dismiss the belt system. I was in fact arguing IN FAVOUR of it. I was however stating that their primary purpose should be for teaching, rather than motivation.
I just don't think that the educational use of a syllabus system should take second place to the motivational side of it, something which does happen alot.
The motivation is a nice bonus, but the primary goal should be imparting the knowlegde as effectively as possible, and then doing drills and sparring to help apply that knowledge.

not my intent to pick a fight, but this is something i'm really passionate about.

buddha, you've got it square 180 degrees backwards.

motivation comes before a solid curriculum. if you don't have motivated students, your curriculum could have come down from god hisownself and it won't matter -- only a tiny fraction of your students will stick around long enough to see your beautifully constructed and elegant masterwork.

i'm a psychologist by training and instructor by profession. my specialty was in educational psychology. there isn't any evidence out there to support that people learn better without visible, attainable, short-term goals.

in short: a very small part of the population has it in them to shoot for black belt as a singular goal. as instructors, it's our duty to show them how to subdivide that goal into smaller, attainable chunks. that's what belts are for.

the fact that it gives us a handy way to structure what we want to teach is important. that framework is incredibly useful to instructors. but it's not nearly as important as keeping our students motivated until they're ready to motivate themselves.