I
IFAJKD
Guest
Evolution....read on
I
IFAJKD
Guest
Lots of intellectual babble. So many people are quick to quote Bruce Lee and throw out his words as justification without thinking them through very closely. Trapping is the most misunderstood range there is. When, why how as well as motive is really not understood by too many people even those trainign the art. Not too sure why this is but it is. I would think that as they spar and attempt to functionalize the art they would see the problems with how they are trying to capitalize in this range. Trapping is not a goal, its a response to another goal or desired result.
Bruce Lee may have been able to trap a punch but not by many. Trapping is more of a response from the result of a blast or your opponents response to your pressure. They defend...you remove their barriers.
JKD has evolved through Dan Inosanto and others. Yet to ask which is better or valid OJKD or JKDC is like asking what is better a car or a boat. Everything has it's place. Now this doesn't mean however that a Karate person leaving their style and becoming a boxer is JKD. It is not. To simplify JKD down to this is absurd. What about all the NHB people, they evolved and include grappling and striking. Does this make them JKD.....????? No. it makes them smarter but not JKD.
For what it's worth.
Bruce Lee may have been able to trap a punch but not by many. Trapping is more of a response from the result of a blast or your opponents response to your pressure. They defend...you remove their barriers.
JKD has evolved through Dan Inosanto and others. Yet to ask which is better or valid OJKD or JKDC is like asking what is better a car or a boat. Everything has it's place. Now this doesn't mean however that a Karate person leaving their style and becoming a boxer is JKD. It is not. To simplify JKD down to this is absurd. What about all the NHB people, they evolved and include grappling and striking. Does this make them JKD.....????? No. it makes them smarter but not JKD.
For what it's worth.
ace
Master of Arts
Dude What is it that U are trying to say??
Blah Blah Blah?????
Traping is 1 rande in fighting.
Bruce new he had to beable to fight inall the ranges!
Yes when it comes to J.K.D
I do quote Bruce.
It seems to me that since he started
J.K.D. his words should mean something.
:fart: :fart: :fart: :fart:
:wavey:
Blah Blah Blah?????
Traping is 1 rande in fighting.
Bruce new he had to beable to fight inall the ranges!
Yes when it comes to J.K.D
I do quote Bruce.
It seems to me that since he started
J.K.D. his words should mean something.
:fart: :fart: :fart: :fart:
:wavey:
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I
IFAJKD
Guest
Ace: Not too sure who you are or what your background is but My message is obvious. AND respectful. I suggest you do the same. As for your questions on my meaning.....I am glad you quote Bruce Lee. I too think he should be utilized for everything he taught. I also see more people who have never thought it through for themselves and have never really understood what he was teaching. These people then quote Bruce Lee and have no clue what they are really saying. NOR can they utilize the techniques they think they have. Thy read but don't study and subsequently they see a narrow picture. (thinking they have the big picture) A challenge on perspective.
ace
Master of Arts
Mines posted all over the Place
Just look in the other forums.
Im a Cross Trainer I've done a fiew Different M.A.
I am limited nor Bound to anything
I have done MMA, FMA, Wrestling , Submisson Grappling
JKD/ Mauy Thai (same group) a little Boxing, Ju Jitsu ( USJJF )
I love Martial Arts
MMA is the one im consintrating on
The most.
Bruce is a great Exampel
Of a Martial Artist
><
:idea: :wavey:
Just look in the other forums.
Im a Cross Trainer I've done a fiew Different M.A.
I am limited nor Bound to anything
I have done MMA, FMA, Wrestling , Submisson Grappling
JKD/ Mauy Thai (same group) a little Boxing, Ju Jitsu ( USJJF )
I love Martial Arts
MMA is the one im consintrating on
The most.
Bruce is a great Exampel
Of a Martial Artist
><
:idea: :wavey:
I
IFAJKD
Guest
On that note dude, I couldn't agree more. Sounds like you are on a great path
S
sammy3170
Guest
I have already asked this question and the answers are still the same. Lets say that Bruce taught Dan Inosanto. Dan then added some of his own stuff and left out some that didn't work for him. Dan then taught Paul Vunak. Paul took what Dan taught him and added some stuff and removed some stuff then taught someone else. How long is it going to take for this 'art' to not even remotely resemble the method bruce lee used to fight? If people have trained in a lot of different styles, even if one of them is JKD why don't they come up with their own system? Are they just cashing in on the Bruce Lee name?
I was going to say more but for now I'll leave it there.
Cheers
Sammy
I was going to say more but for now I'll leave it there.
Cheers
Sammy
B
bob919
Guest
JKD the martial art is just like any martial art geared toward one person or a group of people
JKD the principles is universal theses are the thingseveryone should learn
basic techniques
loads of principles and learning how to use them in any situation
JKD the principles is universal theses are the thingseveryone should learn
basic techniques
loads of principles and learning how to use them in any situation
S
sammy3170
Guest
Thats fine but my point is that lets say what your instructor teaches you and calls JKD may not be the same as what another JKD instructor teaches his students. At least with a certain style of karate for example you can go from one place to another and techniques and katas from the same styles will be the same. If JKD goes on the premise of taking what is useful etc etc then how is it standardised? It then would just seem to me to be the use a name for financial benefit with no real link to Bruce Lee.
Please don't take this the wrong way I'm just trying to find out answers to questions I've had that no one could answer
Cheers
Sammy
The thing is, JKD was never meant to be a concrete system or style. There are concepts that every JKD should learn, but the whole point was to find the student's personal 'style'. With this in mind, every high level JKD player should be different from one another, as they'll have individual strengths and weaknesses to play from.
In this manner, JKD is standardized, and it is not standardized. Certain concepts, drills, and techniques will be taught as a root to work from (which will vary depending on the JKD lineage). However, ultimately the teacher should be showing the student how to best develop themselves as an individual in regards to the martial arts.
This is one of the potential problems with JKD. By way of example, I could go from a PFS school (headed by Paul Vunak), then go to a school run by one of Lamar Davis's students. Unlike a traditional system, the material may very well be vastly different from school to school.
The best thing you can really do is you are researching this in hopes of taking up JKD is to first check if the instructor has valid certification. If this is so, they instructor should have no qualms about getting you in contact with people who can verify his/her lineage. Once done, just try out a class or two and see if it's for you. See if the instruction fits what you thought JKD was, but more importantly, see if it's fun.
Cthulhu
In this manner, JKD is standardized, and it is not standardized. Certain concepts, drills, and techniques will be taught as a root to work from (which will vary depending on the JKD lineage). However, ultimately the teacher should be showing the student how to best develop themselves as an individual in regards to the martial arts.
This is one of the potential problems with JKD. By way of example, I could go from a PFS school (headed by Paul Vunak), then go to a school run by one of Lamar Davis's students. Unlike a traditional system, the material may very well be vastly different from school to school.
The best thing you can really do is you are researching this in hopes of taking up JKD is to first check if the instructor has valid certification. If this is so, they instructor should have no qualms about getting you in contact with people who can verify his/her lineage. Once done, just try out a class or two and see if it's for you. See if the instruction fits what you thought JKD was, but more importantly, see if it's fun.
Cthulhu
B
bob919
Guest
jkd is not supposed to be standardized all JKD instructers should describe the main principles and the techniques but the students have to train themselves if they dont the JKD will be empty for them
M
MNKaliGroupRayW
Guest
I am lucky to have the ability to train at a JKD/JunFan school in Minneapolis, MN. At the Minneapolis Kali group we study Inosanto methods of Kali and Silat, Mechado BJJ, TBA Thai Boxing under Ajarn Chai Surisute plus numerous visiting seminar insturctors like Francis Fong in Wing Chung/ Jun Fan Kung Fu, Bill McGrath of Pikiti-Tirsia Kali, Eric Paulson of Combat Submission Wrestling, Ibu Rita Suwanda of Mande Muda Pencak Silat and many more. I can't speak about Paul Vunak, because I only know him by reputation and his media materials, but I can tell you my experiences with Mr. Inosanto.
Mr. Inosanto, whether he is teaching Philipino Kali or Jun Fan Kung Fu, always sites the sources of his training and techniques! It takes a huge amount of organizational effort to maintain the integrity of the arts he has learned while incorporating and disseminating decades of mixed martial arts experience. But that is the respect and honor he shows the teachers who took the time to teach him.
Those of you who have been in the arts long enough to see the many simularities in the core movements of unrelated arts can attest to the complicated notion of keeping the differences, or appreciating the subtle differences of similar techniques. Mr. Inosanto has the personal collection of matterial that he and Bruce Lee developed together in the time they were together. He has always maintained the Jun Fan corriculum in its entirety along side the other arts practiced at his school. It is not Dan Inosanto teaching Dan's version of Jun Fan. It is Dan teaching and preserving Bruce Lee's Jun Fan. It is also Dan, and his other instructors teaching Kali, Thai Boxing, Shoot Wrestling, BJJ, among others. What is Dan's personal JKD? You would have to see his whole carreer at once, and see that it looks like a living growing process of learning -that is what he feels JKD is to him and was to Bruce Lee too. His JKD/Jun Fan experience is an obvious influence on him, and he has shared his experiences with us in seminars many times. Did Mr. Inosanto stop his learning process as soon as Bruce died? Of course not! Paul Vunak also rooted his beginings in a strong Jun Fan backround and went his own direction with it.
As for cashing in on Bruce Lee's name, I cannot think of anyone who charishes the Lee legacy more. To my knowledge Dan's Instructors to this day do not use the JKD name in their titles or names of their schools because Bruce had expressed a desire to keep his art personal and non-commercial before he passed away. Dan logged more training time, demoed more, and holds more certification from Bruce Lee than ANY person alive. And yet he will not market himself as a JKD school! There are JKD schools out there using a name based only on the premise of reading Bruce Lee books! Now that's commercialization!
If I had the right, I would almost encourage Mr. Inosanto to loosen his policy on using the JKD name. I feel the vacume left in the JKD world has allowed less than qualified individuals to fill the demand that has continued to grow. But I am sure it is something he worries little about, because he is busy with the journey he and his students are taking everyday to become more complete fighters and better individuals.
Thats just my personal experience on the matter, and it is a short one, just the last four years of training at the MKG. And I am of course a big fan of Bruce Lee and Dan Inosanto so I have read most books available on the subject. I encourage you to read both mens biographies and descide for yourselves!
Good Training!
Ray
Absolute JKD and MKG Arts
S
sammy3170
Guest
I'd heard that Dan Inosanto didn't use the JKD name and my dig wasn't at him but at those whose only purpose in using the name is to make a dollar
Cheers
Sammy
M
MNKaliGroupRayW
Guest
You raise a good point that most people think about. From what I have come to understand, you can't just use the concept of "take what is useful" and run with it. It is a concept that takes great amounts of self awareness and experience to utilize propperly. One could miss invaluable insights, or really useful components of an art, if they give up to early on an art just because it is hard to learn and doesn't seem to work for them. A fully grounded base corriculum provides the foundation for fighting skills, then the mature fighter can see what areas he or she can explore and excell in. That is the concept applied, not misused or misunderstood.
But here is the where the debate begins, what is the best core corriculum to start from? For us we use the Jun Fan arts, with Kali and Thai boxing. Dan was encouraged by Bruce to explore his heritage in the Filipino MAs, and the coincidence of it is that the FMA are VERY complimentary to Chinese arts like Wing Chung Kung Fu. Where Bruce modified his Wing Chung to be more mobile and utilize boxing striking fundamentals, the filipino boxing arts also use trapping and boxing strikes, with an emphasis on checking or accounting for the free hand and manipulating body position for supperior effect. And while I believe Thai round kicks were included in the 2nd Jun Fan teaching corriculum by Bruce, later after Bruces passing, Dan met Ajarn Chai Sirusute, a Thai Boxing Champion and coach. After training with him, he was impressed at the caliber of training and the rapid results in physical attributes and skill acquisisition it can bestow upon a fighter. So a natural progression occured where Kali and Thai were taught along side the Jun Fan. While ground work and standing grappling has existed in the Jun Fan corriculum, and was adequate for dealing with a non-grappler, it took specialized focus to compete with the grappling skills of opponents in the late 80's and 90's so we have sought the best grapplers for training (BJJ, Shoot wrestling and others).
Others feel they should train in only the Jun Fan arts as done by Bruce. (Often referred to as Original JKD) That is cool, you can be a really compitent fighter with those tools too. And it is historically important to preserve and cherish that legacy. You have no doubts of its authenticity, or accuracy; and you can see direct link back to Bruce Lee. But most arts and Jun Fan/JKD in particular has shown an evolution and adaptation to changes and improvements in fighting technology and methodology. So would Lee Jun Fan have stayed the same as the 60's and 70's, doubtful.
And today you have gyms teaching JKD philosophy and little or nothing of the original techniques. One in particular began as a concepts type gym, couldn't get acredited, or didn't want to be acredited, so went its own way teaching their own curiculum based on the arts they think work. In their own words "The majority of our training now revolves around boxing, wrestling, and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, all of which has been adapted to work together, and in the street." They spout warnings not to trust sifu's, guru's or sensei's, and no man needs to be certified to be an instructor or coach. They appear to want to coach performance over tradition in the name of JKD. (I agree!) Do they take shortcuts because they couldn't hack getting certified by anyone else? Or are they more efficient? I don't know, I have never met them on the mat or ring. Would I name my gym after a trade mark Lee Jun Fan technique, use his name more than ten times a page on my web site and claim to be my own man, would I go on making generalization criticisms of anyone else to try to make a name for myself, probably not. But you see my point.
If you want to be a fighter, you have to train. So start somewhere, hell, anywhere. Test what you learn if you want it to work for you. If you consider yourself a JKD man and follow the philosophy, cool. If you want historically accurate Bruce Lee training, you have to go to the source. But ultimately you will find it is the workout and the results not the style that you will love the most! So I care less about who does what, and what it is called until I find myself needing to address an opportunity for growth in my own training. Then I seek out an experienced source to fill that need.
Ray
Absolute JKD and MKG Arts
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