Jkd
- Thread starter Bob Hubbard
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Originally posted by Baoquan
Cthulhu - you couldn't have got it any more "right" - IMHO (another "non-certified" JKD kid) the "pontificating buffoon" is JKD!!
Cheers
Bao
Thanks, Baoquan
However, since I'm just a bookworm when it comes to JKD, I still defer to the board members who are actually certified. If I didn't, I'd be no better than the phonies who promote themselves as JKD instructors but have no real knowledge of JKD other than its name and the money it can bring them.Cthulhu
I agree, to an extent - but Lee and Inosanto have been quoted saying things like "What is JKD? This meal is JKD." - meaning that JKD is the spirit and purpose of a thing, not a thing in and of itself.
(To risk opening an old, and IMHO very tired can of worms, you may see i'm sitting in the "Concepts" camp ).
In many ways, studying JKD is the act of training with or under someone who has studied JKD/JunFan formally. But it is also very much just a way of looking at things, which it seems you're doing.
Michealangelo once said that sculpting a horse was simply a process of starting with a stone, and taking away all the parts that aren't a horse. Mihealangelo was JKD centuries before Sigung Lee was born!!
Cheers
Baoquan.
(To risk opening an old, and IMHO very tired can of worms, you may see i'm sitting in the "Concepts" camp
).In many ways, studying JKD is the act of training with or under someone who has studied JKD/JunFan formally. But it is also very much just a way of looking at things, which it seems you're doing.
Michealangelo once said that sculpting a horse was simply a process of starting with a stone, and taking away all the parts that aren't a horse. Mihealangelo was JKD centuries before Sigung Lee was born!!
Cheers
Baoquan.
Originally posted by Baoquan
I agree, to an extent - but Lee and Inosanto have been quoted saying things like "What is JKD? This meal is JKD." - meaning that JKD is the spirit and purpose of a thing, not a thing in and of itself.
(To risk opening an old, and IMHO very tired can of worms, you may see i'm sitting in the "Concepts" camp
In many ways, studying JKD is the act of training with or under someone who has studied JKD/JunFan formally. But it is also very much just a way of looking at things, which it seems you're doing.
Michealangelo once said that sculpting a horse was simply a process of starting with a stone, and taking away all the parts that aren't a horse. Mihealangelo was JKD centuries before Sigung Lee was born!!
Cheers
Baoquan.
I agree. I believe there are MANY people who practice the essence of JKD without even knowing they are. I'm not talking about the people who keep piling technique upon technique upon themselves, or reject anything they don't like simply because they don't like it without having done proper research. I'm talking about the people who experiment with different ideas, techniques, principles...who can squeeze the essence out of them and apply it to what they do, if possible. The people who make a stone cold honest assesment of what they do and realize, 'This is crap' or 'This is good, but better this way'.
People like Wally Jay, Remy Presas, even Chuck Norris in his competition days, when he trained in Okinawan karate to improve his hand techniques because he researched it and found them to be better for his tournament fighting.
But, it's well after 2am and I must sleep.
:cheers:
Cthulhu
I
IFAJKD
Guest
Man JKD is simple direct and to the point. It simply takes the path of least resistance and does so by any means. There was never a beginning or an end with JKD it just is. There are underlying concepts and certainly some commonalities but beyond that it simply flows.
Best thought of as a way of looking at it. How do we see it use it and learn from it. Paul would joke when someone would beat him to the punch on a topic and say "well man you JKD'd me dude".
thats what it is.
Never much into too many books on JKD but Paul's is good
Jeet Kune Do, It's Concepts and Philisophies"
Best thought of as a way of looking at it. How do we see it use it and learn from it. Paul would joke when someone would beat him to the punch on a topic and say "well man you JKD'd me dude".
thats what it is.
Never much into too many books on JKD but Paul's is good
Jeet Kune Do, It's Concepts and Philisophies"
J
jmdrake
Guest
Hello Cthulhu,
I think this is a matter of terminology and perspective than anything else. Contrary to popular opinion, Dan Inosanto does NOT mix FMA with JKD. At least that's not what I've picked up from his website. Look at the tapes he's recently released. There's the "Jun Fan Gung Fu/Jeet Kune Do kickboxing" tape and seperate tapes on Filipino Martial Arts. Dan says that JFGU is the "base" for JKD. Well OJKD people are into refining their skills in the "base". They may or may not train other arts on the side, but they are primarily interested in the "base". Once we better understand each others terminology we can move past bickering and actually being learning from each other. Wouldn't that be nice?
Regards,
John M. Drake
I think this is a matter of terminology and perspective than anything else. Contrary to popular opinion, Dan Inosanto does NOT mix FMA with JKD. At least that's not what I've picked up from his website. Look at the tapes he's recently released. There's the "Jun Fan Gung Fu/Jeet Kune Do kickboxing" tape and seperate tapes on Filipino Martial Arts. Dan says that JFGU is the "base" for JKD. Well OJKD people are into refining their skills in the "base". They may or may not train other arts on the side, but they are primarily interested in the "base". Once we better understand each others terminology we can move past bickering and actually being learning from each other. Wouldn't that be nice?
Regards,
John M. Drake
S
sweeper
Guest
That brings up the question, Who teaches FMA as JKD? Who has teachers or knows teachers that teach FMA as JKD?
From what I know (as stated above) Dan Inosanto does not, at the inosanto academe the classes are seperate and certification by dan is seperate. And I'm not talking about an instructor teaching FMA and JKD in the same class but rather actualy calling FMA JKD. For example my instructor teaches FMA and JKD in the same class but he says "this is a Kali drill" or "this is JKD footwork" he does teach empty hand drills like Hubuddebudbud(sp?) and incorperates it with other flow type drills for empty hand fighting (the JKD aspect of the class) but that isn't realy adding to JKD is it? Anyway the question realy is how many people in the world actualy have added to JKD as aposed to learned another art and taught it along side JKD?
From what I know (as stated above) Dan Inosanto does not, at the inosanto academe the classes are seperate and certification by dan is seperate. And I'm not talking about an instructor teaching FMA and JKD in the same class but rather actualy calling FMA JKD. For example my instructor teaches FMA and JKD in the same class but he says "this is a Kali drill" or "this is JKD footwork" he does teach empty hand drills like Hubuddebudbud(sp?) and incorperates it with other flow type drills for empty hand fighting (the JKD aspect of the class) but that isn't realy adding to JKD is it? Anyway the question realy is how many people in the world actualy have added to JKD as aposed to learned another art and taught it along side JKD?
I
IFAJKD
Guest
Sweeper brings up a thoughtful question. Who has "added" to JKD. ? I don't believe anyone has. Just ;like nobody has added to TKD or WC or anyother established system. But this is also a paradox because JKD has always been taught as evolutionary.
Dan Inosanto does not teach JKD and FMA as one system. Most do not. In fact I know of nobody who teaches it as one system. What is important is that they all flow together. This is known as the JKD matrix in that like you would have no use for seperate classes for the Jab and the cross and later the hook. You have to bring it all together.
It has to flow. Many people are confused as to some of the reasons we train in JKD, JKDC, FMA BJJ WB, TB, SF and other systems. In short there is no complete system, not even JKD. To train in so many different systems in part or the complete system, can be problematic if ther is no way to connect them and it's here that JKD adds its connective tissue through entries, 5 ways of attack, trapping and major tools.
Although nobody has aded to JKD, I do believe that Paul Vunak has to some degree created a hybrid, simplified version of making JKD functional in a hurry for the average person. Rapid Assault Tactics is his way of disecting the elements of a fight and explaining a way off looking at it.
Before anyone goes crazy here.....
1. It is his way of looking at it not "THE" way
2. JKD and functionality is up to the person training. JKD as it is is functional but to be able to use it "YOU" have to be too. That means attribute training.
When I am teaching I will begin with the most sensitive based arts first
A) weapons FMA
B) Trapping
This is usually followed by attribute development: Here as an example we may draw from some of the three step drills from Panatuken and Panajakman and utilize Savate or Thai techniques to train. We may start in the kicking range and work through Kali type interceptions to blast to trapping to HKE or ground fighting.
We will also isolate techniques to train and we also work on conditioning.
Add to this weapons sparring that work single and double weapons and weapons of differing lenghth and attributes. Freestyle empty hand sparring and ground fighting and we have gone through many many different systems. Here JKD is a part of the whole.
There are focus nights for just JKD and just weapons and just Trapping & Flow drills.
That is my school in a nut shell. Sound familure at all ?
Dan Inosanto does not teach JKD and FMA as one system. Most do not. In fact I know of nobody who teaches it as one system. What is important is that they all flow together. This is known as the JKD matrix in that like you would have no use for seperate classes for the Jab and the cross and later the hook. You have to bring it all together.
It has to flow. Many people are confused as to some of the reasons we train in JKD, JKDC, FMA BJJ WB, TB, SF and other systems. In short there is no complete system, not even JKD. To train in so many different systems in part or the complete system, can be problematic if ther is no way to connect them and it's here that JKD adds its connective tissue through entries, 5 ways of attack, trapping and major tools.
Although nobody has aded to JKD, I do believe that Paul Vunak has to some degree created a hybrid, simplified version of making JKD functional in a hurry for the average person. Rapid Assault Tactics is his way of disecting the elements of a fight and explaining a way off looking at it.
Before anyone goes crazy here.....
1. It is his way of looking at it not "THE" way
2. JKD and functionality is up to the person training. JKD as it is is functional but to be able to use it "YOU" have to be too. That means attribute training.
When I am teaching I will begin with the most sensitive based arts first
A) weapons FMA
B) Trapping
This is usually followed by attribute development: Here as an example we may draw from some of the three step drills from Panatuken and Panajakman and utilize Savate or Thai techniques to train. We may start in the kicking range and work through Kali type interceptions to blast to trapping to HKE or ground fighting.
We will also isolate techniques to train and we also work on conditioning.
Add to this weapons sparring that work single and double weapons and weapons of differing lenghth and attributes. Freestyle empty hand sparring and ground fighting and we have gone through many many different systems. Here JKD is a part of the whole.
There are focus nights for just JKD and just weapons and just Trapping & Flow drills.
That is my school in a nut shell. Sound familure at all ?
J
jmdrake
Guest
From my understanding Dan's JFGF and JFKB classes don't have any FMA in them. FMA is taught is a seperate class. That is different to me than what you are describing. Different doesn't mean bad, just different.
Regards,
John M. Drake
S
sweeper
Guest
yeah, to the best of my knowledge dan inosanto's instructors don't have many standards that they have to stick to in the way that they teach (someone correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not an instructor). I'm not learning at the inosanto academe and my instructor teaches kali and JKD in the same classrooms, I was talking about two diffrent things in that statement. One being how dan inosanto teaches and certifies instructors the other being my personal experience.
I
IFAJKD
Guest
Actually, Guru Dan Inosanto, has tremendous standards on how someone teaches in terms of style and ability and academic knowledge, (history, reference, theory). As with any JKDC student however, there is permission to alter and change something to better fit your situation and/or add to the art. This constant evolution is what the JKD aspect is about. While doing this you still have to maintain the knowledge of what Bruce Lee originally taught but understand why the "concept" of JKD applies to everything we train and how it's interwoven into the flow of all that we do.
Teaching Kali or FMA and JKD at the same time is important and yes Dan Inosanto does this too. There is a class that is simply "Mixed Arts"
I will use myself as an example however. I teach JKD, JKDC, FMA systems, Muay Thai, Boxing, and BJJ at the same time.( I also have seperate focus classes) I seperate it out from one technique to the other so people know what is from what, but it has to be linked together or you end up with students who don't know how it all flows. One of the most important concepts is the concept of "flow" it has to all link together range to range and style to style. There is no reason to keep it all seperate from eachother at all times. In fact those that do it this way may be hindering the process of functionality when it comes to putting it all together. I have always said that in this way JKD becomes the connective tissue. If not we have lost the JKD concept and have done nothing more than bring different styles together and trained in different ranges. JKD is how we go from point A to point Z and at times is point A and/or Z. Sometimes theses destinations are FMA or Muay Thai or others. It can be anything. Any combination because it is all woven together. In this way (technique) there is no seperation. The only seperation is in the (academic) sense and the intellectual knowledge that we teach as we train or isolate technique to train for the required perfection and attribute.
Hope this makes sense
S
sweeper
Guest
Uhm.. think you basicly just said "fighting is fighting and any distinction between styles is of an academic/intelectual nature but wouldn't apply to the application of said styles under real situations."
but doesn't guru dan allow his students to teach in what ever order/format they find most comfortable? So some instructors teach more of one thing than another or teach drills in diffrent orders?
I
IFAJKD
Guest
Wow.
Dan Inosanto does permit and encourage his students/Instructors to teach as they would best teach in whichever format they choose. However his standards on "knowledge" is very high. Example is looking at some of his more "famous" students and their specialties:
Burton Richardson: Overall flow artist. explores more diverse arts as well as the African arts. Strong JKD"concepts" approach as base
Paul Vunak: Hand Trapping. Theory to simplfy fighting identify stages (R.A.T.) Heavy on applicable skill. Most recent focus....Kino Mutai, BJJ. Attribute development
Terry Gibson : Deceased. His focus was Silat and Indonesian Arts. Strong Trapper but excelled in weaponry.
Rick Tucci: Filipino Martial Arts. Perfection Drilling ARTIST
Larry Hartsell: JKD Groiund Fighting. Heavy application background
Chris Kent: Original Jeet Kune Do as well as concepts but strong focus on the Original JKD focus.
Everyone has a seperate focus. Vunak has really incorporated Kino Mutai into his focus yet Dan INosanto only gave two people the art of Kino Mutai.
This is the simple beauty of it all isn't it !!!!!!
M
Magua
Guest
before he passed bruce lee saw where jkd was leading and he spoke not too pleasantly of it in a few interviews..
it's disappointing to see it turn into more a complex 'style' as opposed to his original idea of it being merely a guide or idea if you will to help us better ourselves and further our progress as martial artists..
in the sense of survival in real life situations,restriction to a certain 'style' will most likely do more harm than good to the practicioner..
jeet kun do was a philosophy designed to free us from such ideas and restrictions
it's disappointing to see it turn into more a complex 'style' as opposed to his original idea of it being merely a guide or idea if you will to help us better ourselves and further our progress as martial artists..
in the sense of survival in real life situations,restriction to a certain 'style' will most likely do more harm than good to the practicioner..
jeet kun do was a philosophy designed to free us from such ideas and restrictions
I
IFAJKD
Guest
Strange: I don't find it sad at all. Nor do I think Dan Inosanto, (one of Bruce's best friend and the only one allowed to continue to teach after he closed his schools down) missed the JKD boat as it were. When Bruce spoke and wrote of chipping away at the unessentials, he didn't mean to limit technique but to limit you unessary movements to acomplish or realize those techniques. JKD is still what it always has been. If you have compartmentalized what JKD is and is not then haven't you limited yourself to that notion rather than liberated yourself. JKD today is not conforming and can still adapt to anything. Today also, fighters are much more sophisticated and as such so is JKD.
J
jmdrake
Guest
Hello Magua,
Good point. JKD is in some circles a "personality cult". People more concerned about lineage than about ability. Matt Thorton had a good take on this. While I don't agree with everything he says he does have some good insights. http://www.straightblastgym.com/questions2.html
Regards,
John M. Drake
I
IFAJKD
Guest
Anything can become a personality cult. However I think to make such a broad statement can be considered offensive to those who have worked hard at their art. Never have I run accross an art where people are willing to prove their "abilities" Because JKD people eminating from Dan Inosanto's line, train in many different arts does not mean we teach it as "JKD". It seems so many people have a problem with how we cross train into many different arts and are able to flow from one to the other. And yes, we do have the abilities to use it well. As in any art there are those who cannot fight as well as the next person. So what. Skill are varible.
Matt has some good points. Some not so good. Such is life for all of us huh.
I think that the fact that we can and do train in the varried areas we do is testement to this fact is it not ?
J
jmdrake
Guest
Hello IFAJKD,
It's true that anything can become a personality cult and it's sad when it happens. Yes it's a blanket statement but as the saying goes "if the shoe fits, wear it." Notice that I didn't mention any specific person. There's more than one JKD personality cult out there. It's important not to put people up on pedastles. And it's important to keep an open mind about things. I recently found out that actually my certifcation can be traced back to Dan. Does that automatically make me any better? Of course not. I could care less and so could any mugger out on the street. He pulls out a gun or a knife and I pull out a piece of paper or a membership card? Ok, fine. If your under Dan or Ted Wong or anyone and you have an open mind about what you do then the "personality cult" comment doesn't appy to you and you shouldn't be offended.
Regards,
John M. Drake
It's true that anything can become a personality cult and it's sad when it happens. Yes it's a blanket statement but as the saying goes "if the shoe fits, wear it." Notice that I didn't mention any specific person. There's more than one JKD personality cult out there. It's important not to put people up on pedastles. And it's important to keep an open mind about things. I recently found out that actually my certifcation can be traced back to Dan. Does that automatically make me any better? Of course not. I could care less and so could any mugger out on the street. He pulls out a gun or a knife and I pull out a piece of paper or a membership card? Ok, fine. If your under Dan or Ted Wong or anyone and you have an open mind about what you do then the "personality cult" comment doesn't appy to you and you shouldn't be offended.
Regards,
John M. Drake
M
Magua
Guest
i'd like to thank mr. drake for reiterating what i've previously stated..
i did not mean to imply that all jkd practicioners are afflicted with a closed mind..it is a problem that exists in more than many styles..to all those who donnot fit this statement,i salute you and i thank you for keeping the martial spirit alive..
ultimately it is the individual and not the style who make the longest lasting impressions..
bruce lee and jeremy glick are 2 of many examples in this and it is my belief that we owe them a great thanks
i did not mean to imply that all jkd practicioners are afflicted with a closed mind..it is a problem that exists in more than many styles..to all those who donnot fit this statement,i salute you and i thank you for keeping the martial spirit alive..
ultimately it is the individual and not the style who make the longest lasting impressions..
bruce lee and jeremy glick are 2 of many examples in this and it is my belief that we owe them a great thanks
