What is all this blocking about

[exile]

if the style of blocking you guys are talking about it would of been in the old game of pugilism a long time ago due to it being all arms and hands

This isn't quite an English sentence, Munky. And the referent of `it' isn't clear here. Can you rephrase it as a sentence? That way we'll have more of a chance of understanding what you're saying!

I want to see you block a crushing blow from someone who knows how to throw a good hook or cross and tell me that aint gonna cause damage to your arm if your even lucky in getting it in the path... but hold that statment... it's gonna spark someone in talking about iron training... yeah if you have all day to beat yourself with sand bags 3 times a day... those of you who are talkign about the redirection of a punch... that isnt blocking... thats a parry... blocks are what are used in systems like karate, tae kwon do, and kung fu

Since I've trained in a style of TKD which is still very closely related to Shotokan karate, and since we routinely train redirection of a punch, I'd have to say that... um... well, you've been misinformed. It really does helps a lot to train in a system before you form strong opinions about that system or think you know about it or whatever. Redirection of blows, as well as power blocks, are parts of all these systems.

By the way, Monky, the guy whose arm Itosu broke was a notorious streetfighter who knew every trick in the book and took pleasure in mixing it up with all comers. And Itosu broke his arm with a single shock block. So actually, I'm not sure what you're going on about here. And the guy who wrote the article on shock blocks is a security `contractor' for crowd control at NHL events who's been involved in around 300 violent outbreaks at football games. But that's OK, eh?

I... the whole upward downward block bs... all this theory is leading to the same place... put up or shut up... reason why eastern martial arts besides like muay thai or doing well in NHB events you can say rules all you want but you take NHB athlete and take away the rules your in for some trouble...

Whoa, lad, you're hyperventilating! Slow down and talk in English sentences. You're just firing unconnected phases at the reader here. How can we discuss these matters carefully and intelligently with you if you just fire words into cyberspace?

Iyou dont think they train in cheap shots... just like professional boxers dont train in em either huh? the argumemnts will always be the same but your arguement will always be nothing more then philisophical theory bs... just like time travel... it dont exist till it's proven... and sure hasnt been proven...

I don't remember anyone speaking up in defense of time travel, Munky.

Meanwhile, I suggest you study the history of the South Korean 11th Marine division, who at the Battle of Tra Binh Dong 1967 pretty much decimated a much larger force of N. Vietnamese regulars in ferocious H2H fighting, much of it involving unarmed combat using the military TKD that they had been trained in, leaving ~250 NV dead. You might check out the 1966 Vietcong field directive instructing their fighters to avoid engagement with ROK forces at all costs, specifically because of their training in TKD. The blocking those ROK soldiers trained was effective enough for the Korean and Vietnam War battlefields, apparently...

Actually, there's a lot of history I think you need to learn about, judging from your posts, Munky, before forming your views... you don't want to come to conclusions based on ignorance, right? Best take a deep breath and try to learn a bit more, I think, about the arts in question... you really don't seem to know very much about them, I have to say. JMHO!

 

[Callandor]

And if you throw your blocks right, they are strikes.

That's what I was taught.

 

[tshadowchaser]

sorry but pugilism in America and maybe England was not nor can ever be seen as the hand to hand fighting styles of China, Okinawa. Yes fists where involved but the whole concept of how to stop an attack or how to evade one was different. If you had ever seen an old master block a punch or felt the impact of their arms and hands upon your arm you might see things in a different light. People today do not train the way they once did, nor do most people today harden their arms and body to the extent they once did.
Having seen arms and legs broken by blocks I certainly believe they can stop an attack. No not many today have the skill or ability to do so but i am sure there are some out there that still can.

 

[Fang]

bla bla bla bla bla... put up or shut up...

Since the aye's outweigh the nay's shouldn't the burden be on you to prove that we are all wrong? Perhaps you don't fully understand the concept of blocking? Even the essence of 'timing...' Certainly by the tone of your conviction you wouldn't mind posting video of you railroading through a competant opponent who disagrees? Or are we to just take your word for it?

 

[CuongNhuka]

Since the aye's outweigh the nay's shouldn't the burden be on you to prove that we are all wrong? Perhaps you don't fully understand the concept of blocking? Even the essence of 'timing...' Certainly by the tone of your conviction you wouldn't mind posting video of you railroading through a competant opponent who disagrees? Or are we to just take your word for it?

The next point becomes, doesn't this qualify as a threat/challenge? Which I believe are banned.... either way. What Munkyjistudo has going for him is a whole system. Thats right boys and girls, incase you forgot, Choy Li Fut does no blocking techniques. They dont beleive in them.
What he has AGAINST him is every other system in existence. Since pretty much EVERY system uses them. Or atleast train them.
Now why do I get the feeling the OP and this gentleman are one in the same. And that this new permintation is a a way of dealing with the fact that every one hated his old form. I don't think their are TOO many people with this perverse thought process.

 

[Fang]

The next point becomes, doesn't this qualify as a threat/challenge? Which I believe are banned.... either way.

It shouldn't be misconstrued as a threat at all, I didn't offer myself up in any way, nor would I...

What Munkyjistudo has going for him is a whole system. Thats right boys and girls, incase you forgot, Choy Li Fut does no blocking techniques. They dont beleive in them.
What he has AGAINST him is every other system in existence. Since pretty much EVERY system uses them. Or atleast train them.

So his system is the only legitimate claim to fame huh? Obviously no other system in existance works? By the by the old kenpo mantra applies to more than just kenpo 'every strike is a block and every block is a strike...' When you see Choy Li Fut practitioners wearring studded bracers thats not just for show its also used for blocking allbeit with their own twist on the subject.

Now why do I get the feeling the OP and this gentleman are one in the same.

Could be.

 

[Odin]

bla bla bla bla bla... all I hear is philisophical theory non-sense... if the style of blocking you guys are talking about it would of been in the old game of pugilism a long time ago due to it being all arms and hands... I want to see you block a crushing blow from someone who knows how to throw a good hook or cross and tell me that aint gonna cause damage to your arm if your even lucky in getting it in the path... but hold that statment... it's gonna spark someone in talking about iron training... yeah if you have all day to beat yourself with sand bags 3 times a day... those of you who are talkign about the redirection of a punch... that isnt blocking... thats a parry... blocks are what are used in systems like karate, tae kwon do, and kung fu... the whole upward downward block bs... all this theory is leading to the same place... put up or shut up... reason why eastern martial arts besides like muay thai or doing well in NHB events you can say rules all you want but you take NHB athlete and take away the rules your in for some trouble... you dont think they train in cheap shots... just like professional boxers dont train in em either huh? the argumemnts will always be the same but your arguement will always be nothing more then philisophical theory bs... just like time travel... it dont exist till it's proven... and sure hasnt been proven...

Ive blocked shots in a streetfight without any ''iron training'' my arms are fine.

by blocks I mean covering up ie boxing style though, are you refering to karate style blocks?

As an MMA fighter i would say to though that if it doesnt work for you then simply dont do it, its important to remember that everyone fights differently and what works for some may not work for others.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

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[Kosho Gakkusei]

If were refering to okinawan/japanese TMA styles of blocking I think there is some confusion because in many cases blocking has been taught wrong and if you try to reproduce the technique by watching someone perform a block correctly you will in almost all cases get it wrong.

Most people observe incorrectly that blocks and parries originate from the arms. Some schools even teach the use of a box pattern. This is just not how poweful and effective blocks and parries are generated. The proper way is from the hips!! The arms are merely an extension of your center.

When a block originates from the arms utilizing a box pattern, openings are created when you move your arms off your center line where you will most likely get tagged. On the other hand when you use the hips, your hands don't need to leave center, they simply rise or fall and you don't create an opening and you actually have moved off line of the attack. Additionally the type of power needed to do damage to the attacker's limb will not be generated to do this you need the torque your hips can generate.

Still the issues of timing and targeting apply but blocking (limb destruction and redirection) are effective for use on the street. There is quite a bit of redirection in Boxing and MMA but using the hands to harm an opponents limbs is not as useful in that context due to the padding in the gloves and the conditioning of fighters arms. Generally speaking, professional fighters don't utilize seeking to injure the opponent so he can not continue as their strategy of choice. For a striker a knock out is a more decisive goal and grapplers seek the takedown in order to submit or ground and pound.

The problem we have here is people making observations based on assumptions and limited knowledge.

_Don Flatt

 

[Fang]

Ive blocked shots in a streetfight without any ''iron training'' my arms are fine.

its important to remember that everyone fights differently and what works for some may not work for others.

Exactly, and by underestimating the strategy that would use defense to injure you're only making the effectiveness of the particulars more plausible...

 

[exile]

When a block originates from the arms utilizing a box pattern, openings are created when you move your arms off your center line where you will most likely get tagged.

This is what comes from modern TMA schools taking the description `block' literally, when the movements in question were actually intended to be strikes of various kinds, or components of throws or other controlling moves. Obviously, if you do a hair- or ear-grab with, say, your left hand and rotate that hand outward in a classic `outward middle block' to pull the attacker's head back (typically after having established control over one or the other of his arms) to expose his throat or jaw to the followup finishing strike—a typical sequence portreyed in many TMA patterns—then your left hand and forearm are moving off the center line, but not as part of an actual block, parry, cover, interception or whatever. Same with so-called upper blocks and down blocks. Once these movements are understood to be parts of attacks to weak point on a (usually controlled) assailant's body, rather than defensive blocks, they won't be trained primarily as blocks. A hard, aggressive shock block such as Lawrence Kane describes is a very different kind of move...

On the other hand when you use the hips, your hands don't need to leave center, they simply rise or fall and you don't create an opening and you actually have moved off line of the attack. Additionally the type of power needed to do damage to the attacker's limb will not be generated to do this you need the torque your hips can generate.

This is the SOP of a `fence'-type defensive set-up. I've seen Gm. John Pelligrini and other Hapkido masters demonstrate this kind of deflection in seminars and have found in practice with seriously non-compliant partners that it's extremely effective. Very little force is needed to carry out the deflection, and it's true that what force is applied mostly comes from fairly small upper-body rotations driven from the hips. But those kinds of techs are implicit in a lot of TMA forms. Still, they have be trained hard and long to become automatic—that's going to be the case regardless of the intrinsic effectiveness of the technique, no?

Still the issues of timing and targeting apply but blocking (limb destruction and redirection) are effective for use on the street.

I agree... but only if blocks are trained for use on the street, as vs. controlled sparring or one-step type training involving much greater distances separating the combatants.

In the end, what is so striking is that most such discussions—to the extent that they're conducted rationally—come down to the issue of how a certain set of tactics, implementing a certain kind of strategy, is practiced—how realistic the conditions are, how long the practitioner spends training the techs in question, how many different attack types the practitioner arranges to encounter in the course of training, and so on.

I think of chess: the best openings in the world won't win a single game for you unless you study how they work and use them against a lot of other players—ideally, players who are to a certain degree better than you. If you can't win with a Sicilian Defense, does that mean that you've shown the Sicilian to be a bad opening? All you've shown is that you don't know enough about chess to use it effectively. In the hands of a master, it's a proven lethal tool. Same with actual blocking, as Itosu showed pretty conclusively more than 150 years ago in that famous fight with Tomoyose.

 

[Adept]

bla bla bla bla bla... the argumemnts will always be the same but your arguement will always be nothing more then philisophical theory bs...

Please define the movement you refer to as a block.

 

[exile]

Please define the movement you refer to as a block.

Good point, Adept. This has been a problem with the discussion all along; it's not clear we're all talking about the same thing.

Is a block any move which uses contact to alter the momentum of an attacking move so that the attack misses the target? Does it only refer to a attack-momentum-shifting move which uses relatively high impact to do the shifting?...

??

 

[TheOriginalName]

I just wanted to thank the original poster at this point.

I'm new to MAs and MT - and your post has sparked a lot of discussion in regards to blocks. I have learnt a lot by reading through everyone's posts and i must agree with them that blocks are a vital part of any MA.

So a big thank you for putting up the original post.


Also - i believe there is a lot of truth in the football saying
"Offense win games, defence wins chapionships".

I think in every sport it is recognised that whilst a strong offense is paramount to success without a defence there is no hope of winning.
And whilst i am in no way saying that MAs are a sport (they are far far more complex than that!!) i believe that this is equally true.

I may have the best punch in the world - but if my opponent attacks first and i have no defence my punch is worthless.

And yes, at times the best defense is a good offense - but this is the exception that proves the rule.

Again, thanks for the original post - and thanks to all the in depth replies, they have been very educational.

Catch you all on the flipped side.

 

[Flying Crane]

Please define the movement you refer to as a block.

actually, i'd like to see a definition of "bla bla bla bla bla..."

I'm sure there is a pearl of wisdom in there and I'd hate to miss it...

 

[Flying Crane]

Thats right boys and girls, incase you forgot, Choy Li Fut does no blocking techniques. They dont beleive in them.
What he has AGAINST him is every other system in existence. Since pretty much EVERY system uses them. Or atleast train them.

Well, Tibetan White Crane does not have blocks. At least not officially as such. But ya know what? After you have been working on it for a while, you begin to realize that they are also in there too. Can't exactly get by without any of them...

 

[Sukerkin]

At this juncture, I think that the central tenets have been covered quite well but I note that there is still nothing on the table to explain why blocks are not necessary or effective {other than the already infamously information-full "Bla Bla Bla ..." :lol:}.

My guess throughout has been that the OP has seen or been taught the basic, initial, 'blocks' that all arts have (well maybe not all from what has been said above) and reached the conclusion of ineffectivity (made up word ) from that.

I can say with certainty that without blocking techniques I may well be blind {and thus unable to type this } and would certainly have a few dashing facial scars, so I'm very curious to learn that an art exists that does not 'believe' in blocking. Can anyone enlighten me further?

 

[Flying Crane]

I can say with certainty that without blocking techniques I may well be blind {and thus unable to type this } and would certainly have a few dashing facial scars, so I'm very curious to learn that an art exists that does not 'believe' in blocking. Can anyone enlighten me further?

Yup, this I can do.

Tibetan White Crane is a very aggressive art. Either you do it, or you don't. There is little room in the middle for indecision or "half-way".

So when you decide to do it, 'cause the jerk just won't leave you alone and he's about to actually start swinging at you, or he already has and you realize talking ain't gonna make the problem go away, then it's time to DO IT. So we go all out and attack and attack and attack some more. It's a pretty simple idea. We have these crazy swinging punches that come from all directions and hit like a wrecking maul. We just charge at you swinging with everything we got, as fast as we can, until you go down. Maybe you will block the first couple shots, but we just charge and keep coming until something lands, and another one lands, and another one lands and you go down, if you haven't already, and we literally run over the top of you. You see, Tibetan White Crane, if you believe in the Creation Mythology, was developed by a Lama who was meditating on a mountaintop. His meditation was disturbed by a fight between a "mountain ape" (probably a macaque of some kind, I understand a species lives in Tibet) and a crane, and he used what he witnessed to develop a new method. The crane won the fight, but this crazy swinging probably came from the ape. The art should really be called "crane and ape style" or something, it would be more accurate.

With that approach to fighting, since we immediately go on the hyper-aggression, blocks are often seen as not needed.

But like I said, once you are familiar with the material, you've practiced the forms a lot (and the forms have a lot more sophistication than the basic "charge 'em down" approach that I just described - I expect Exile, among others, probably understands what I am suggesting), you realize that there is a lot in there that can be used as a block, or at least a re-directing parry of some sort. The very movements used in these crazy swings often include an extreme pivot of the body that can act as an evasion for slipping by punches. And there is often an exaggerated reverse swing in the punch that can also be used as a deflection or parry or block, depending on how you chose to define it.

So to say "White Crane has no blocks" is sort of true. We don't teach or practice specific, deliberate blocking techniques that would look anything like an inward, outward, upward, or downward block that are staples to many arts. But we definitely do have defensive techiques for intercepting an attack that is coming in before we go into berserker mode and wreck the room.

 

[mjd]

Thank you, that was a great debate, alot of views, good points, and new info. I enjoyed reading these post,

soo....... is a block an attack or an attack a block or they the same, the primary intent may be one or the other, the secoundary result is the other, it makes contact resulting in damage, it takes up space resulting in blockage of that space.

????????

 

[Steel Tiger]

Thank you, that was a great debate, alot of views, good points, and new info. I enjoyed reading these post,

soo....... is a block an attack or an attack a block or they the same, the primary intent may be one or the other, the secoundary result is the other, it makes contact resulting in damage, it takes up space resulting in blockage of that space.

????????

This is a good question. A block can be an attack and an attack can definitely be a block (or at least a parry). What a block should never be is just a block. Now what I mean by this is a block should not be done simply for the sake of blocking. It should be used to develop another technique, a lead in if you will. If all you do is block and parry then you'd better hope your opponent gets exhausted because you're not going to stop him. So a block should lead to a grab for closing to grappling, or it should disable the limb, or create an opening for you to use a striking technique.

And remember what Kosho and Exile mentioned defence should come from the knees and waist so that the body is always protected in some way.