What forms are in your Style?
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LanJie
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I am glad you liked my posts.
The Long Fist forms are from an old listing of forms from Dr. Yang Jwing Ming in Boston, MA. He has a large organization.
Here is the link to his federation
http://www.ymaa.com/
Dr. Yang teaches Chang Chuan and Southern White Crane Ancestor Branch.
I do not know if this is similar to your style.
What do you study?
I hope this helps.
Regards,
Steve
The Long Fist forms are from an old listing of forms from Dr. Yang Jwing Ming in Boston, MA. He has a large organization.
Here is the link to his federation
http://www.ymaa.com/
Dr. Yang teaches Chang Chuan and Southern White Crane Ancestor Branch.
I do not know if this is similar to your style.
What do you study?
I hope this helps.
Regards,
Steve
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
I do study Tibetan White Crane, so I will make a few comments...
a lot of these forms do not sound familiar to me, but I'm the first to admit that my knowledge is limited. Some of the first items listed in this group are not full forms, but are rather the name of specific punching techniques.
The empty-hand sets that I know are:
lok lik kuen, in five variations, of six.
chuit yap bo kuen, the back and forth fist - mentioned by my sifu's uncle as the most important form in the system because it has most of everything in it.
dai saat, the ground spirit, which is really the second half of chuit yap bo kuen, but the form was split into two sections.
bak hok kuen, the flying crane form.
There are certainly more than these, and a few of those listed above, like the shooting star form, eight drunken immortals, cotton needle, the greater Arhat and little Arhat forms, are familiar by name. Not sure where everything else on the list came from.
I've heard of others, including the little drunken crane and a sword form.
the only staff form I know and have heard of is the Dripping Water Staff
the only broadsword form I know and have heard of is the Flying Crane Broadsword.
I don't know about any of these others.
I am not necessarily disputing what is here, just commenting that this list is not fully consistent with my own admitedly limited knowledge of the art. I remember once I asked my sifu, how many forms are in the entire system? He said, who knows? Often, different people either develop sets on their own, or borrow from other systems and incorporate material into what they do and it sort of "becomes" part of the system, at least in their specific lineage. So it may not be possible to compile a standardized list of the entire system, because the list could vary considerably from one lineage and generation to the next.
a lot of these forms do not sound familiar to me, but I'm the first to admit that my knowledge is limited. Some of the first items listed in this group are not full forms, but are rather the name of specific punching techniques.
The empty-hand sets that I know are:
lok lik kuen, in five variations, of six.
chuit yap bo kuen, the back and forth fist - mentioned by my sifu's uncle as the most important form in the system because it has most of everything in it.
dai saat, the ground spirit, which is really the second half of chuit yap bo kuen, but the form was split into two sections.
bak hok kuen, the flying crane form.
There are certainly more than these, and a few of those listed above, like the shooting star form, eight drunken immortals, cotton needle, the greater Arhat and little Arhat forms, are familiar by name. Not sure where everything else on the list came from.
I've heard of others, including the little drunken crane and a sword form.
the only staff form I know and have heard of is the Dripping Water Staff
the only broadsword form I know and have heard of is the Flying Crane Broadsword.
I don't know about any of these others.
I am not necessarily disputing what is here, just commenting that this list is not fully consistent with my own admitedly limited knowledge of the art. I remember once I asked my sifu, how many forms are in the entire system? He said, who knows? Often, different people either develop sets on their own, or borrow from other systems and incorporate material into what they do and it sort of "becomes" part of the system, at least in their specific lineage. So it may not be possible to compile a standardized list of the entire system, because the list could vary considerably from one lineage and generation to the next.
LanJie
Blue Belt
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I will certainly defer to your knowledge since you study the style.
I have seen the style and I must say it is quite impressive. The examples I saw were of a very long range style. I thought It looked quite northern. There was also a good Tibetan White Crane site that I saw in Israel.
http://www.pakhokpai.co.il/
Regards,
Steve
I have seen the style and I must say it is quite impressive. The examples I saw were of a very long range style. I thought It looked quite northern. There was also a good Tibetan White Crane site that I saw in Israel.
http://www.pakhokpai.co.il/
Regards,
Steve
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
oh, I'm not trying to overwrite you or dispute or anything. Just adding to the picture based on my own experiences. I think often the thing with Chinese arts is that there are many branching lineages in an art, and they have often changed quite a bit. So again, it's just difficult to compile an "Official List" of the system. Rather, the list may be more on the lines of "Everything That Has Been Mentioned by Someone Or Other in Relation to the Art at Some Time or Other".
It is an extremely long range style, I think it may be as long range as is possible, without a weapon. It's very athletic and aggressive. My sifu describes it as a young person's art, because it is so physically demanding. It's like running long distance sprints, exhausting. I really enjoy it, tho, and it has some very powerful techniques.
i did meet a guy from Israel once, he stopped in at our school one day. He may have studied at that school, or an affiliated school.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
unfortunately, no. My sifu studied TWC a long time ago, from his uncle here in San Francisco. Later, he blew out his shoulder playing baseball, and had to stop training TWC. So he began studying with other teachers in things like Shaolin, and whatnot, stuff that didn't require quite the same level of extreme shoulder movement. Now, he is mostly a teacher of taiji chuan and bagua, and most of his classes are conducted thru the local community college, and YMCAs and stuff. He doesn't have his own school location. He is also the head coach for the UC Berkely wushu team (he coaches modern wushu, as well as teaching traditional Chinese martial arts). But he teaches me TWC on the side, in a private setting. He has had a very small number of students who he has taught this to, and mostly the others did not last very long. I've been the only consistent and long lasting student he has had in this, and it's not a regular class. It's just me, working mostly on my own, under his guidance, while everyone else does taiji. Every once in a while, someone else comes in and wants to try TWC, so sifu turns them over to me. I run them thru the basics, and usually they don't come back after a handful of classes.
As you mentioned, the art is quite rare, and to be honest, I kind of like it that way.
He does have a website, but it's much more taiji and bagua focused. There just isn't really any info on TWC on the website, it doesn't have the appeal to the masses that something like taiji has. If you want, you can check out his website, I think the link is www.beijingbagua.com. I am at work right now, and the company filters won't let me view that website so I can't verify at the moment if that is the correct site. But his name is Bryant Fong. If he is on that website, then that's the one.
Sorry, I don't have more info to present at the moment, but if you have questions I'll do my best to give what answers I have. I do not consider myself to be particularly advanced, but I do my best and I like it a lot. Sifu usually just looks at what I am doing and says, "it's OK. Needs more work. Gotta be a lot faster." I think I can count on the fingers of one hand the amount of times he has actually said something like "that looks pretty good".
LanJie
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It is really cool that you get that individual attention. I really think a lot people would really like TWC, though.
I think it has all the appeal of modern wushu without the exagerated stances.
It is a very aesthetic art.
Thank you.
Regards,
Steve
I think it has all the appeal of modern wushu without the exagerated stances.
It is a very aesthetic art.
Thank you.
Regards,
Steve
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
yeah, I think I stumbled into a bit of a hidden gem with this. I started training taiji with him, and after a number of months I asked if he would teach TWC. He agreed, but was clear that it is a young person's art and requires a high level of fitness. That was about close to 10 years ago, and I'm in my middle/upper 30s now. I suspect if I hadn't started when I did, I may have difficulty doing it now. I had spent a number of years training in capoeira prior to this, so my fitness level was already very high and I am sure that helped. No stranger to hard work and exhaustion.
I do wish there were other students who were serious about it, tho. My own training and my useage of the material would be at a much higher level if I had people to really work with. Sifu has some old injuries that prevent him from engaging in this, and he is over 60 now. So mostly I practice basic techniques, forms, and train on the heavy bag. It's far from perfect, but I do the best I can with it.
It is a beautiful art if done well. Most of the youtube clips I've seen have been pretty poorly done, and it can look a bit silly then. I haven't seen anything on Youtube that I could recommend as a "good" example of the style.
It doesn't have the acrobatics and such that modern wushu has, so it's "wow" factor isn't on the same level, but for a traditional fighting art, I think it is quite remarkable.
Sorry for resurrecting an oldish thread.
I have heard of a lot of the styles listed by the OP.
I would like to know if anyone has information on the Lee-gar/Lee Ka Kuen system? What forms are there? I heard it has Sup Gee Kuen... and that it used some pressure point fighting and a bit of conditioning work using the phoenix eye fist.
It was mentioned by the OP that this system has been incorporated into Choy Li Fut, Fut-gar and (I think?) maybe Bak Mei.
You see Lee family kung fu can be considered my family style and I'd like to learn more about it. No one left alive in my family knows it. A shame really. A few of them trained in Bak Mei in their younger years in Hong Kong. anything I know came from my now deceased father and my uncle.
I have heard of a lot of the styles listed by the OP.
I would like to know if anyone has information on the Lee-gar/Lee Ka Kuen system? What forms are there? I heard it has Sup Gee Kuen... and that it used some pressure point fighting and a bit of conditioning work using the phoenix eye fist.
It was mentioned by the OP that this system has been incorporated into Choy Li Fut, Fut-gar and (I think?) maybe Bak Mei.
You see Lee family kung fu can be considered my family style and I'd like to learn more about it. No one left alive in my family knows it. A shame really. A few of them trained in Bak Mei in their younger years in Hong Kong. anything I know came from my now deceased father and my uncle.
Sorry for the necrobump but I think this is an interesting discussion, so I'll give it a go.
Most people know what Wing Chun's forms are so I'll go to what Northern Shaolin forms I remember first. The ones I've actually completed are in bold:
Fu Xing Yi: Revival One
Fu Xing Er: Revival Two
Lian Bu Quan: Continuous Step Fist
Qi Xing Quan: Seven Star Fist
Luo Han Quan: Arhat Fist
Pa Kua Liu Twe: Eight Trigrams Slipping Kicks
Lian Huan Pa Kun: Continuous Eight Sections Staff
Shi Er Lu Tan Tui: Twelve Sequence Springing Legs
San Tsai Jian: Three Powers Sword
Si Lu Cha Quan: Four Sequence Cha Fist
Lio Ho Quan: Six Harmony Fist
Tsai Shou Dui Da: Grabbing Hands Fighting
Sun Bin Quan: Sun Bin Fist
Wing Chun:
Siu Nim Tau: Little Idea
Chum Kiu: Sinking/Seeking the Bridge
Biu Jee: Thrusting Fingers
Muk Yan Jong: Wooden Dummy
Luk Dim Boon Gwun: 6 1/2 Point Pole
Bat Jam Dao: Eight Slashing Knives
Most people know what Wing Chun's forms are so I'll go to what Northern Shaolin forms I remember first. The ones I've actually completed are in bold:
Fu Xing Yi: Revival One
Fu Xing Er: Revival Two
Lian Bu Quan: Continuous Step Fist
Qi Xing Quan: Seven Star Fist
Luo Han Quan: Arhat Fist
Pa Kua Liu Twe: Eight Trigrams Slipping Kicks
Lian Huan Pa Kun: Continuous Eight Sections Staff
Shi Er Lu Tan Tui: Twelve Sequence Springing Legs
San Tsai Jian: Three Powers Sword
Si Lu Cha Quan: Four Sequence Cha Fist
Lio Ho Quan: Six Harmony Fist
Tsai Shou Dui Da: Grabbing Hands Fighting
Sun Bin Quan: Sun Bin Fist
Wing Chun:
Siu Nim Tau: Little Idea
Chum Kiu: Sinking/Seeking the Bridge
Biu Jee: Thrusting Fingers
Muk Yan Jong: Wooden Dummy
Luk Dim Boon Gwun: 6 1/2 Point Pole
Bat Jam Dao: Eight Slashing Knives
Dinkydoo
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Seven Star Praying Mantis
Too many to list!
Here's a link:
Boxing Forms Of Mantis - Nottingham kung fu Kung fu Nottingham
The ones I know well are:
Bung Bo Kuen: Burst Step Boxing
Kune Nek Kuen: Power Boxing
Dore Kwan Kuen: Avoid Force Through Parrying Boxing
Ha Fu Gau Cha Kuen: Black Tiger Cross Boxing
Sa Pa Sao: Eight Gods of Longevity Boxing
Chap Choy Kuen: Thrust Strike/Hammer Boxing
Sab Sei Lo Tam Toy - first 6 lines (we learn this incrementally as we progress)
I've also been working on these for a while but due to other training committments, I amn't as fluid in their execution:
Mui Far Sao Kuen: Plum Blossom Hand Boxing
Yee Lo Yare Yue Kuen: Routine 2 of Summary Boxing
I'm also familiar with a few others including a broadsword and stick set but I need a reference when going through them as I don't practice them nearly enough.
I also know the first Wing Chun form (Siu Nim Tao) and bits and pieces of Taiji sets that i've picked up from past classes and seminars (Beijing 24, Laojia, Square Form) - all of which i practice a couple of times a week. The Mantis stuff however I try to incorporate into each training session, in one way or another.
Too many to list!
Here's a link:
Boxing Forms Of Mantis - Nottingham kung fu Kung fu Nottingham
The ones I know well are:
Bung Bo Kuen: Burst Step Boxing
Kune Nek Kuen: Power Boxing
Dore Kwan Kuen: Avoid Force Through Parrying Boxing
Ha Fu Gau Cha Kuen: Black Tiger Cross Boxing
Sa Pa Sao: Eight Gods of Longevity Boxing
Chap Choy Kuen: Thrust Strike/Hammer Boxing
Sab Sei Lo Tam Toy - first 6 lines (we learn this incrementally as we progress)
I've also been working on these for a while but due to other training committments, I amn't as fluid in their execution:
Mui Far Sao Kuen: Plum Blossom Hand Boxing
Yee Lo Yare Yue Kuen: Routine 2 of Summary Boxing
I'm also familiar with a few others including a broadsword and stick set but I need a reference when going through them as I don't practice them nearly enough.
I also know the first Wing Chun form (Siu Nim Tao) and bits and pieces of Taiji sets that i've picked up from past classes and seminars (Beijing 24, Laojia, Square Form) - all of which i practice a couple of times a week. The Mantis stuff however I try to incorporate into each training session, in one way or another.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
Since my last contribution to this thread I was fortunate to become a student of my sigung. He is now my sifu and I have had five or so years of high quality instruction from him. I also have a better familiarity with the curriculum and can give a better list of our sets.
Empty hand:
Beginner Level
Lok lik kuen
Chut yap bo/dai saat kuen
Tiet lien kuen
Baak hok kuen
Intermediate Level
Lok lik kuen second level/variation
Siu gum gong
Siu lohan
Siu ng ying (five animal)
This is as far as I have learned in the curriculum
Advanced and disciple level forms, i don't remember which of these go where and I don't have the list with me to consult, but here's what I remember:
Third and fourth/advanced level Lok lik kuen
Gum gong
Lohan
Lohan out of cave
Tien gong
Cotton needle
There are some others that I think sifu hasn't/doesn't teach, he may feel they are unnecessary with an already large curriculum. I remember reference to a final compilation form with the ten best techniques of the system, and a drunken form. Might be a couple others...he made reference to a dragon form developed by the founder Ng Siu Chung, but possibly taught to nobody.
Weapons:
Three staff sets (I've learned two)
Two or three sword sets (Ive learned one)
Two broadsword sets (one)
One double broadsword set (I've learned it)
One spear set (I've learned it)
Two butterfly sword sets (adopted from sifu's studies in Choy lay fut when he was young) (I've learned one)
Guan do set
Possibly a bench set
Hope this information is of interest.
Empty hand:
Beginner Level
Lok lik kuen
Chut yap bo/dai saat kuen
Tiet lien kuen
Baak hok kuen
Intermediate Level
Lok lik kuen second level/variation
Siu gum gong
Siu lohan
Siu ng ying (five animal)
This is as far as I have learned in the curriculum
Advanced and disciple level forms, i don't remember which of these go where and I don't have the list with me to consult, but here's what I remember:
Third and fourth/advanced level Lok lik kuen
Gum gong
Lohan
Lohan out of cave
Tien gong
Cotton needle
There are some others that I think sifu hasn't/doesn't teach, he may feel they are unnecessary with an already large curriculum. I remember reference to a final compilation form with the ten best techniques of the system, and a drunken form. Might be a couple others...he made reference to a dragon form developed by the founder Ng Siu Chung, but possibly taught to nobody.
Weapons:
Three staff sets (I've learned two)
Two or three sword sets (Ive learned one)
Two broadsword sets (one)
One double broadsword set (I've learned it)
One spear set (I've learned it)
Two butterfly sword sets (adopted from sifu's studies in Choy lay fut when he was young) (I've learned one)
Guan do set
Possibly a bench set
Hope this information is of interest.
This is what I'm working through in Lama Pai under my sifu & sigung in their org. My sigung was a long time student of Chan Tai San until his passing & was baai si'd under him.
Novice
Gei Bon Kyuhn
Beginner
Sup Ji Kyuhn
Sup Ji Kau Dah Kyuhn
Siu Lohan Kyuhn
Fei Hok Hei Gung
Intermediate
Bak Hok Gwun
Bak Fu Dahn Do
Dai Lohn Kyuhn
Lohan Chong Jong Kyuhn
Gum Gong Maan Gong Hei Gung
Advanced
Lohan Jaam Jong Kyuhn
Ng Ying Kyuhn
Baat Gwa Wu Dip Do (a CLF set taught by CTS since his branch of Lama Pai had no butterflies I've been told)
Hak Lung Saam Jit Gwun
Min Loi
Lohan Cho Gum Hei Gong
Then ... then it gets interesting. I'm not at interesting yet...
Novice
Gei Bon Kyuhn
Beginner
Sup Ji Kyuhn
Sup Ji Kau Dah Kyuhn
Siu Lohan Kyuhn
Fei Hok Hei Gung
Intermediate
Bak Hok Gwun
Bak Fu Dahn Do
Dai Lohn Kyuhn
Lohan Chong Jong Kyuhn
Gum Gong Maan Gong Hei Gung
Advanced
Lohan Jaam Jong Kyuhn
Ng Ying Kyuhn
Baat Gwa Wu Dip Do (a CLF set taught by CTS since his branch of Lama Pai had no butterflies I've been told)
Hak Lung Saam Jit Gwun
Min Loi
Lohan Cho Gum Hei Gong
Then ... then it gets interesting. I'm not at interesting yet...
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
Personally, I find the lower level stuff more interesting. Sifu will not teach me more sets until I Baa si. Unfortunately, with the birth of my son and the need to buy a new home, my training for the last several months has been severely disrupted and honestly I do not know if I will get that chance. I am interested in learning the later sets, but as I understand more I can better understand sifu's thoughts that they are not needed. While they are useful, they really are not necessary. What I have learned already is plenty of material to give me what I need in terms of combat development as well as a full curriculum to teach, if I choose to do so. Honestly, most people will never learn as much as I have learned already.
I've seen my sihing do the other sets so I have some familiarity, and honestly I see little in them that isn't already covered in the earlier sets, or that the earlier material has already given me the necessary tools.
We learn all these forms so that we can come full circle and understand that there are no magic techniques, there are no secrets, the real skill and knowledge lies in the basics. Work the hell out of them and you will have everything. Some people come to that understanding after having fewer forms, others seem to need more forms before they reach that understanding. At any rate, once you have learned six or eight forms, if you still don't understand what you are trying to accomplish, learning another six or eight isn't going to help you much. On the other hand, once you understand what you are doing, you really have no need of any more forms. The forms are just a tool used to get you to a place of understanding. Once you get there, you don't really even need them anymore. They are still useful as a practice tool, but in terms of learning more, or even using them as a repository of techniques, it's just not needed. Kinda like, if you know how to use a hammer to drive a nail, then you are probably fine with two or three different hammers of different size and shapes, but you really don't need a dozen or two dozen.
It's all interesting. Every bit of it. The biggest thing I'm finding / getting with the sets as they increase in level is attention to detail & how as my understanding grows, the same techniques in a level 1 set is used "like this", now in a level 3 set is used "like this". My body responds differently & my understanding of things is no longer working on that level any longer. So I know what you mean, but at least for me, there's always something new coming at me in the sets. I different way of throwing a combo that requires re-wiring of muscles, a new stepping pattern with a common technique that cause me to trip, etc...
Congrats though on the new boy though! First I've heard.
True enough, except I'm sihing at the school & people say that about me & what I do.
That answer could win the entire internet ...
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
It most definitely IS interesting, all of it. It's just that Ive come to understand that it's not all NECESSARY, exactly. And, given the limitations to my time, more material can become a burden, too much to practice with enough regularity for it to be beneficial.It's all interesting. Every bit of it. The biggest thing I'm finding / getting with the sets as they increase in level is attention to detail & how as my understanding grows, the same techniques in a level 1 set is used "like this", now in a level 3 set is used "like this". My body responds differently & my understanding of things is no longer working on that level any longer. So I know what you mean, but at least for me, there's always something new coming at me in the sets. I different way of throwing a combo that requires re-wiring of muscles, a new stepping pattern with a common technique that cause me to trip, etc...
Congrats though on the new boy though! First I've heard.
True enough, except I'm sihing at the school & people say that about me & what I do.
That answer could win the entire internet ...
In terms of application, what I've found is that more and more of it seems to distill down into a handful of fundamental applications. Sure, it's possible to find more creative applications, but the fundamentals carry a much higher percentage of success. It just makes me realize that this all doesn't need to be super complicated. I guess it depends what direction you want to go with it.
Thank you, regarding my son. I've not made any big announcements here about it, but he is just over one year and one mont now. He's great, but my life and priorities have completely changed since he was born. Hoping to be able to return to training in a few more months, but things simply remain chaotic. My job also has had some serious upheaval so my entire day just doesn't seem to belong to me anymore.
So are you still connected to CLF, or are you complete lama now?
I understand the job chaos. I was laid off back in May from my job of 26 years. But I've just gone back to work & it's pretty awesome.
As far as CLF, we're pretty much Lama Pai but since CTS was also a CLF guy, we do get it from his lineage. But there's a definite Lama flavor to it from what I feel. But it's not bad though. It's still CLF, but definitely a unique brand. I don't practice the other sets now but I do keep stuff from them handy.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
Oh man, the layoff. My company will be doing some of that over the next couple years. So far I do not know if my position will be affected but I still have a job now. A year and a half ago half my team wAs fired for being juvenile idiots, for lack of a better term. We are still dealing with the fallout from that and still trying to put the team back together. It sucks, quite honestly.
Keep the faith!
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