I don't know, but I'm convinced that the more gentle systems can not work on the street against an attacker. Take Aikido's wrist lock against a punch, action is faster than reaction, if he knows how to punch he will hit you, the answer is to strike back, or better yet run, if that's a viable option. Action being faster than reaction is known to all who know something of Physics. With all due respect to the practitioners of Aikido, which certainly has a beautiful philosophy, if not particularly practical against a determined mugger on the streets in my opinion and of those I have talked with and are experts in such arts as Wing Chun and American Combato. They are experts, I'm a beginner.
What do you think is the most ruthless?
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I don't know, but I'm convinced that the more gentle systems can not work on the street against an attacker. Take Aikido's wrist lock against a punch, action is faster than reaction, if he knows how to punch he will hit you, the answer is to strike back, or better yet run, if that's a viable option. Action being faster than reaction is known to all who know something of Physics. With all due respect to the practitioners of Aikido, which certainly has a beautiful philosophy, if not particularly practical against a determined mugger on the streets in my opinion and of those I have talked with and are experts in such arts as Wing Chun and American Combato. They are experts, I'm a beginner.
Thems Fighting Words
Green Belt
Happy St Patrick's day. :yoda:
The dreaded Analplata. Truly a move that can submit even the strongest of men. :wah:
Well I've never done Aikido but if it utilizes correct bridging techniques there is nothing that stops it from being able to control the flow of an attack. This control of an opponant's attack is in itself an action with the opponant's attack being the reaction and the opponant's defeat the consequence. Think of it along the lines of a feint.
searcher
Senior Master
Joab-you do realize that ju-jitsu, multiple kung fu systems, Kajukenbo, and EPAK are what are called "gentle" arts? It has to do with how you deal with another person's techniques(kicks, punches) and not the ideology ofthe system.
It has become common to call "soft" styles gentle, but they are anything but gentle.
And just to add a little bit, the joint locks in Aikido are the nice verison of a bone break. I would like to know who these "experts" are that you speak of. Because they are not experts.
It has become common to call "soft" styles gentle, but they are anything but gentle.
And just to add a little bit, the joint locks in Aikido are the nice verison of a bone break. I would like to know who these "experts" are that you speak of. Because they are not experts.
The attack takes place before the Aikido defense. At any rate, after seeing the speed of the punches thrown in a wing chun school (including even mine after a time) I became convinced Aikido could not work against them.
Bradley J. Steiner, founder and 10th degree black belt in American Combato, Sifu John N. Beal, Greenlake Martial Arts school, both schools in Seattle. You can contact professor Steiner at:www.americancombato.com
I disagree with you I'm afraid, there's no point in having vicious techniques in any style if a person is too squeamish or is unable to do them therefore it's not the art thats ruthless is it? it's the person.
i would suggest too that the Krav maga you took wasn't taken by credible instructors nor do you know that much about Aikido. LOL at 'gentle'!
Thems Fighting Words
Green Belt
Again, while the movement may not be seen as such, a feint (such as a false opening) is itself an action which makes the following attack the reaction. Also, very few fights between comparatively skilled martial artists are going to end in a one hit KO (unless someone is really unlucky or is blindsided). So supposing the Aikido practitioner is skilled enough to avoid the first strike (or even forces a first strike against a false opening) and steps in to bridge and control, there really isn't a reason he shouldn't be able to use his skills in effective SD. Mind you, as I said before my knowledge of Aikido is very limited and I am working from the premise that Aikido practitioners have the ability to successfully enter into a grapple.
Ronin74
Brown Belt
The most ruthless martial art? I'd say it's between Sinanju and the Fist of the North Star... lol.
Whoa there fella!! Ease back a bit when deciding to make jugdgements especially when you are a self proclaimed beginner. I've worked with and seen many Aikidoka fight for real, and against boxers, who bye the way have faster hands than any other art as they specialize in that area. The results were Aikido was effective and seriously so. In fact, the results were equal to any other systems (maybe even better, as Aikidoka are experts at getting out of the way). I knew of many that had their day ruined.
Thems Fighting Words
Green Belt
Oh man, how could I forget Fist of the Northstar?!? :duh:
"You don't know it yet, but you're already dead...."
Well, your right, if your too squeamish to use it there is no point in learning it. But the techniques were indeed ruthess. The Krav Maga I took was taught by a black belt, endorsed by the big Los Angeles Krav Maga school. I hope not all Krav Maga instructors give out such belts so easily. Your right, I don't know very much about aikido, but I'm convinced it wouldn't work against a very fast attack.
I was qouting experts in other arts, your right, I don't know enough to judge Aikido, but I'm convinced it couldn't work against a fast striking style.
searcher
Senior Master
What the "experts" are missing is hat highi level Aikido involves the use of atem,i (e.g. striking) to set up those gentle wrsit locks and throws. However, much of the early training focuses on the Aiki (blending) aspects of the art as tyhose are the hardest to really master and utilize effecrtively. Striking tends to come later. however Ueshiba Sensei was oft quoted as saying that atemi was at the heart of good Aikido.
In the end, high level Aikido looks as awful lot like high level karate, kempo, taijutsu, etc.
Many paths up the mountain but the destination is the same.
Peace,
Erik
In the end, high level Aikido looks as awful lot like high level karate, kempo, taijutsu, etc.
Many paths up the mountain but the destination is the same.
Peace,
Erik
So you don't know what you're talking about. You admit this in several posts, then proceed to argue your point.
You say that you're a beginner. You say that you "don't know enough to judge aikido," but that you're convinced that it cannot work against a fast striking style. You cannot support this statement. Yet, you have argued it now for at least five posts in the face of numerous individuals pointing out the falicies of the statement. Individuals who are not beginners and who do know enough to judge aikido.
The only support you can offer for your assertions is the website for guys who run American Combato schools and/or call themselves sifus in some other art. What makes them experts in aikido? Why should I listen to them? Sounds like they have a product to sell. Incidentally, when instructors of one style deride another, the only reason is to sell you their product (however good that product may be).
Daniel
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Aiki Lee
Master of Arts
While Aikido is not a "comabative" martial art, it can be applied to realistic combat situations because the methods of aikido are dirived from daito ryu which is highly effective.
All martial techniques from all systems will work if you can properly set them up. To perform aiki movements you need proper energy and aikido and other systems that teach aiki instruct students how to manipulate the energy in a fight. It takes a long time to bne effective at this, but experts can do things that would seem impossible to so called "experts".
All martial techniques from all systems will work if you can properly set them up. To perform aiki movements you need proper energy and aikido and other systems that teach aiki instruct students how to manipulate the energy in a fight. It takes a long time to bne effective at this, but experts can do things that would seem impossible to so called "experts".
Inanimate objects even martial arts techniques cannot be ruthless! Something that is not living, not able to feel emotion cannot therefore be ruthless. If you wish to use another word such as deadly,destructive, murderous, savage or violent then perhaps but not ruthless.
A black belt isn't, sadly, always an indication of a credible instructor or school.
Insulting Aiki practictioners is not a good road to go down to keep a good discussion going.
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Well, people place way too much emphasis on speed. Being fast is less important than reading body language. Read the language and you know that the attack is coming and can respond accordingly.
There are younger, faster guys in class with me, both in taekwondo and kendo, who have remarked that when they go to hit me, I'm simply 'not there'. They think that I'm faster than they are, but I'm really not. I observe them and read them. Some are easier to read than other.
The other thing is distance sense. If you have a good distance sense, you can make it much more difficult to be struck.
Then there's timing. If you're sense of timing is good, then the speed of your opponent of an advantage to them.
One last comment is that most MA systems are set up to train you to defend against people "on the street," not advanced practitioners of Wing Chun, Kenpo, Shotokan, or any other TMA. EDIT: yes, martial training in one system is beneficial to defend against another, but by and large, that is not the scenario that people outside of competition are concerned with. Aikido is actually very practical for defense of one's self, assuming that one trains well and receives quality instruction.
The biggest concern that I have in a street encounter isn't whether or not the guy has trained in a martial system, but whether or not he has a knife, a gun, or a posse of friends.
Daniel
There are younger, faster guys in class with me, both in taekwondo and kendo, who have remarked that when they go to hit me, I'm simply 'not there'. They think that I'm faster than they are, but I'm really not. I observe them and read them. Some are easier to read than other.
The other thing is distance sense. If you have a good distance sense, you can make it much more difficult to be struck.
Then there's timing. If you're sense of timing is good, then the speed of your opponent of an advantage to them.
One last comment is that most MA systems are set up to train you to defend against people "on the street," not advanced practitioners of Wing Chun, Kenpo, Shotokan, or any other TMA. EDIT: yes, martial training in one system is beneficial to defend against another, but by and large, that is not the scenario that people outside of competition are concerned with. Aikido is actually very practical for defense of one's self, assuming that one trains well and receives quality instruction.
The biggest concern that I have in a street encounter isn't whether or not the guy has trained in a martial system, but whether or not he has a knife, a gun, or a posse of friends.
Daniel
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