What do you think about foot pivoting

[Bruce7]

If you are doing that, the jab has no power in it. Pivoting your foot or stepping with the jab is what gives it power. It doesn't take away the time it takes to punch either, but if you don't put at least some weight behind it, it won't even work as a distraction.

That's true in kempo, boxing and kickboxing, I can't imagine it's different for MMA.

If you've got 7 bucks, I would absolutely recommend this book. It's by my favorite boxer, so I might be biased, but everyone I've recommended reading it loved it, and learned a lot about how to improve their own boxing.
https://www.amazon.com/Championship-Fighting-Explosive-Punching-Aggressive/dp/1501111485

Thank you for the information about the book.

This is my experience it may be different than yours.
I agree you are not going to knock someone out with a snap punch.
I was taught to jump or step forward and snap punch.
Pivoting the foot and moving the hips and reverse punch.
Body positions when punch is made makes a difference in the power of the punch.
example: is he running into your punch or away from your punch.
I have broken a guy's nose stepping backwards panting my feet while he was moving forwards with a snap punch.
I have broken a board with my body stationary with a snap punch.
So I believe some power can be generated without body movement.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Honey? That's an interesting one.

And a jab can actually be either. But it still needs some power, otherwise people will just ignore it, and pivoting isn't taking away the speed. Also, pivoting actually helps out the jab cross combo-you pivot in the opposite way of throwing a cross, giving you more power when you turn into the cross.

If you watch this video, they're all either doing a step in or a slight pivot

This guy does a really good job of explaining how I like to throw it

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Thank you for the information about the book.

This is my experience it may be different than yours.
I agree you are not going to knock someone out with a snap punch.
I was taught to jump or step forward and snap punch.
Pivoting the foot and moving the hips and reverse punch.
Body positions when punch is made makes a difference in the power of the punch.
example: is he running into your punch or away from your punch.
I have broken a guy's nose steping backwards panting my feet while he was moving forwards.
I have broken a board with my body stationary with a snap punch.
So I believe some power can be generated without body movement.
Watch films of Ali in his younger years that was a jab.

I agree stepping is the better option for a jab, vs. the pivot. But if your stationary when you throw it, there's no reason to use only your arm for it. Almost any jab I've seen, by someone good, has some weight in it too.

I should also clarify, the pivot for a jab is very different than the pivot for a cross. The cross you are doing a very visible pivot, with the jab, it doesn't even have to be something people can see. It's about getting your body set up with just a bit extra power, and more importantly, setting it up so you can really get into that cross/reverse punch.

IMO that's also one of the things training in a horse stance teaches. That whole 'rubber band' snapping your hand back to chamber, is actually showing how to flow with your shoulders/hips from one punch to the next.

 

[Martial D]

Maybe 'jab' is something different at other styles, but, at MMA, it is just a quick arm extension. If you add pivoting, it's a left cross. Maybe that's what you perceive as 'jab'. It's not a bad technique, but it's not what I meant when I said 'jab'.

It's only a left cross if you are standing southpaw. There is some contention over whether the term 'cross' refers to crossing the opponents guard or crossing your own body, but it is unanimous that it refers to a rear hand straight.

However, I do get your intention. You can fire a jab straight off the hip, or you can load it up by first retracting the forward hip and throwing it into the shot (stiff jab). Yet, if you are doing the first by just extending your arm,you are losing a lot of power. Both variations should start at the feet, not the shoulder.

 

[JowGaWolf]

But the jab isn't supposed to be a powerful punch, honey. It's a speedy one intending to create distance.

I guess I'm doing it wrong because I don't throw my jabs with this understanding in mind.

For me Jabs are thrown with power and the benefit of a jab is a fast reload. This way I can quickly hit my opponent hard multiple times. My jabs have to be hard enough to make my opponent want to open up to defend the jab. If I want to create distance then it's better and faster that I use my feet to do so.

The only distance my jab should create is the distance caused my by opponents head snapping back. At a minimum, my jab should disrupt my opponent or open him / her up.

 

[Bruce7]

I guess I'm doing it wrong because I don't throw my jabs with this understanding in mind.

For me Jabs are thrown with power and the benefit of a jab is a fast reload. This way I can quickly hit my opponent hard multiple times. My jabs have to be hard enough to make my opponent want to open up to defend the jab. If I want to create distance then it's better and faster that I use my feet to do so.

The only distance my jab should create is the distance caused my by opponents head snapping back. At a minimum, my jab should disrupt my opponent or open him / her up.

I agree to have offensive power you need to move in.He is a beginner, I think they have not gotten to the moving in part yet.
I like " The only distance my jab should create is the distance caused my by opponents head snapping back. At a minimum, my jab should disrupt my opponent or open him / her up."
I think they are teaching the jab as a defensive punch as you move away from your opponent.
Much like how I was taught blocks before learning punches.

 

[Tez3]

Maybe 'jab' is something different at other styles, but, at MMA, it is just a quick arm extension. If you add pivoting, it's a left cross. Maybe that's what you perceive as 'jab'. It's not a bad technique, but it's not what I meant when I said 'jab'.

I think perhaps you either need a new instructor or stop reading comments on YouTube. I would stop calling people 'honey' too.

When you say MMA bear in mind what it actually is especially the first word, fighters will use techniques that work for them not a one size for all punch. The fact you can use different styles strikes is what appeals to many rather than the traditional everyone does exactly the same punch in exactly the same way regardless of your size. So in MMA is is not what you think it is, some fighters might do it that way but it does not mean it is an 'MMA punch'.

 

[lklawson]

If you've got 7 bucks, I would absolutely recommend this book. It's by my favorite boxer, so I might be biased, but everyone I've recommended reading it loved it, and learned a lot about how to improve their own boxing.
https://www.amazon.com/Championship-Fighting-Explosive-Punching-Aggressive/dp/1501111485

I met one of Dempsey's relatives last year. He's an insurance agent in my area. After we were done with the insurance thing I asked him about his name. Yup. Sure enough. Kinda fun.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

It's only a left cross if you are standing southpaw. There is some contention over whether the term 'cross' refers to crossing the opponents guard or crossing your own body, but it is unanimous that it refers to a rear hand straight.

Terms evolve over time. In "the old days" it was a single-time counter which crossed over your opponent's straight (usually a lead straight).

The Cross Counter

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Danny T]

If you watch this video, they're all either doing a step in or a slight pivot

This guy does a really good job of explaining how I like to throw it

Mervin Cook, excellent boxing coach.

The thing about boxing form/structure is its designed for boxing where elbow, knee, and kick attacks aren’t a concern. A lot of the foot positioning exposes the legs for kick attacks or leg takedowns.

 

[Yokozuna514]

To me this is actually a serious issue that requires proper instruction in the context of the MA you are pursuing. Even if we all could agree on when, where and how to pivot, it is important for an instructor to WATCH you do it so that you do it correctly and without risk of injuring your joints. No book or video can ever replace human feedback.

 

[Martial D]

Terms evolve over time. In "the old days" it was a single-time counter which crossed over your opponent's straight (usually a lead straight).

The Cross Counter

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

That's..interesting. Lead hand cross you say? Do you have a source for that that's not an opinion peice written by you? This would certainly be new to me.

 

[Danny T]

Terms evolve over time. In "the old days" it was a single-time counter which crossed over your opponent's straight (usually a lead straight).

The Cross Counter

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Yep...that's what was taught to me in my early boxing back in the mid 60s.
There was a lead cross as well as a rear cross. It was a countering punch that 'crossed' the opponent's punch.

 

[lklawson]

That's..interesting. Lead hand cross you say? Do you have a source for that that's not an opinion peice written by you? This would certainly be new to me.

You mean other than the four of them that I already reference in the article? Sure. There are any number of others, but they're all the same, really with a few variations such as passing over the opposite shoulder or cross-countering with an upper cut instead of a hook.


Edwards Cross Counter by lklawson on MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community


Davies - Avoiding right lead and cross countering with the left by lklawson on MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community


Corbet - Crossing on the jaw by lklawson on MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community


19496 by lklawson on MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community



Davies - Avoiding a right lead and cross countering with right upper cut by lklawson on MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community


Davies - Avoiding a left lead at head and cross countering with right upper cut by lklawson on MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community


Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[JowGaWolf]

I agree to have offensive power you need to move in.He is a beginner, I think they have not gotten to the moving in part yet.
I like " The only distance my jab should create is the distance caused my by opponents head snapping back. At a minimum, my jab should disrupt my opponent or open him / her up."
I think they are teaching the jab as a defensive punch as you move away from your opponent.
Much like how I was taught blocks before learning punches.

Good point. Beginners often get spoon fed which is the correct thing to do. I knew very little as a beginner. These days, I'm always learning that I don't know as much as I thought I did.

 

[JowGaWolf]

To me this is actually a serious issue that requires proper instruction in the context of the MA you are pursuing. Even if we all could agree on when, where and how to pivot, it is important for an instructor to WATCH you do it so that you do it correctly and without risk of injuring your joints. No book or video can ever replace human feedback.

Agree 100% A lot of the times it's the smallest of things done incorrectly that causes the most harm to one's body.

Having someone to spot and correct those small things is critical. I won't happen without feedback.

 

[Ivan]

It depends on your reason to pivot. For punching, it will generate a bigger amount of speed and power than if you didn't pivot. However, imagine you're boxing and throw a double jab/lead hand. If you pivot your front foot on your first jab, like you'd be used to doing if you've been boxing for a while, then your second jab will be weak and have shorter range. What the comment was referring too is that you can also generate more power in your punches by stepping forward, which is a better alternative to pivoting when throwing multiple consecutive shots with the same hand. Connor McGregor also chooses to step forward instead of pivot almos 90% of the time.

Next come kicks; though some aren't aware of this, I wasn't until 3 months ago, in many kicks you can pivot too. You can pivot your support leg on a front kick with the heel moving inwards as you kick, although this isn't for power or speed, but rather for the fact that if you don't pivot it can lead to knee injuries and problems which are very common in Tae Kwon Do and other mainly kicking based martial arts.

Lastly, another thing to consider when pivoting your feet, is that if your opponent uses and oblique kick while you do so, you'll most likely be kissing your kneecaps goodbye which could be another reason why the person in the comment claims you should avoid pivoting. Personally, I only pivot in sparring where we don't allow oblique kicks (I spar in Tae Kwon Do and Boxing), however I would probably try to avoid doing so if I got into an altercation outside of a controlled environment.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

I havent been told to pivot for generating power. I personally don't do it anyway, kicking sometimes requires you to pivot the foot not kicking to actually perform some kicks. (which i for some reason cant do reversed for side/round kicks right)

Personally i went down the thinking the most powerful punch you can do includes you stepping forwards and rotating your hip and snapping your arm/wrist. If thats true or not [insert shrug here]

Given i cant currently pivot my weak foot to support using my right leg well i doubt i could utilize it anyway without some time trying to get ambidextrous in movements.

Addendum: I usually take up a guard stance, which is right foot forward (or left pending dominance and if you are planning to kick a lot or not) and left foot 45 degree's pointed away. Which may or may not count as pivoting a foot.

If you've got 7 bucks,

Its now on my list as well. Also i dont comprehend the jab as a weaker punch, its just a left handed straight, like a cross is a right handed straight. (other than it being my weaker hand anyway)

 

[amateur]

Your advice is interesting. I'll try some twisting jabs. But don't think that the 'non twisting jab' concept is something that a beginner like me pulled out of his butt. I've been taught it. And if you don't believe me, believe the guys in those videos. And, before you get me started with 'duh, youtube videos are useless, listen only to experts', mind that the guys in those videos are experts indeed.

(1.15-1.35)

(1.28-1.55)

 

[JowGaWolf]

mind that the guys in those videos are experts indeed.

If they are experts then I'm a Real Life Kick A$$ Kung Fu Master.

I'm not saying this to be mean, but I've seen their videos and they seem to be the types who would never claim to be experts. They will tell probably tell you that they know some stuff, but I have never heard them claim that they are experts.

Expert is far above where they are teaching. You can know a lot of things and know what you are talking about and still not be an expert. That's where these guys are.