What do YOU mean when you talk about techniques vs. concepts?

[Gerry Seymour]

One is the technique (physical mechanics) the other is the concept behind it ..ie the reason why.

I think he's just saying that's a different usage of the terms than his. What you call here "technique" and "concept" I'd call "correct form" and "reason".

 

[wab25]

I would try to remain as relaxed as possible and move my opponent into 'emptiness' using trained non-muscular torque or springing force; this results in throwing him off balance or straight down on his face if successful, and it depends on conforming to the principles of the art against normal instinct.

Why could you not do your Judo Tai-otoshi this way? I was taught to do all my Judo throws in the way you explain... relaxed, move my opponent into emptiness, taking him off balance... Judo is about using the other guy's force against him... push when pulled and pull when pushed...

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Why could you not do your Judo Tai-otoshi this way? I was taught to do all my Judo throws in the way you explain... relaxed, move my opponent into emptiness, taking him off balance... Judo is about using the other guy's force against him... push when pulled and pull when pushed...

I think the difference is a matter of emphasis (this is also how I see the difference in approach between Judo and the "aiki" arts). I learned as you state the Judo approach. In NGA, we did the same thing, but with a different emphasis. The attempt was to entirely remove muscular force (of course, you can't, but it's the attempt that changes the way you use the technique). I think this is similar to what @zzj is saying about Tai Chi. It is very much the same, but still quite different, in my view. Does that vaguely explain anything?

 

[wab25]

I think the difference is a matter of emphasis (this is also how I see the difference in approach between Judo and the "aiki" arts). I learned as you state the Judo approach. In NGA, we did the same thing, but with a different emphasis. The attempt was to entirely remove muscular force (of course, you can't, but it's the attempt that changes the way you use the technique). I think this is similar to what @zzj is saying about Tai Chi. It is very much the same, but still quite different, in my view. Does that vaguely explain anything?

I took first semester calculus in high school, from my high school math teacher. He had a particular method of teaching math. He explained things a certain way, he gave us certain sets of problems to do as homework, he walked us through the proofs required using certain explanations. When I got to college, I retook first semester calculus... with a college professor. He had a completely different way of teaching math. He explained things differently, gave us different sets of problems to do as homework. He walked us through the proofs, but had different ways to explain them and hit on different points. These were two totally different views of the same thing... At the end of the day the derivative of a specific function, is the same, no matter which teacher (and which teaching method) was doing the teaching.

I guess thats how I see the difference between the Judo type arts and the aiki type arts. They are both going to the same place, studying the same things... just different homework problems and different explanations of the proofs in class. Different students respond to one approach or the other. At the end of the day, technique does not matter... only the principles that get applied.

 

[zzj]

I think the difference is a matter of emphasis (this is also how I see the difference in approach between Judo and the "aiki" arts). I learned as you state the Judo approach. In NGA, we did the same thing, but with a different emphasis. The attempt was to entirely remove muscular force (of course, you can't, but it's the attempt that changes the way you use the technique). I think this is similar to what @zzj is saying about Tai Chi. It is very much the same, but still quite different, in my view. Does that vaguely explain anything?

Yes, it is very much a matter of emphasis, there is of course a similar concept to tai chi in judo, but it is secondary to proper technique.

Conversely, there are several commonly used techniques in Tai Chi but they are almost incidental compared to the extreme emphasis on principles.

And just to clarify, the term muscular force refers to the direct, main muscles that most people use for the associated actions. Any bodily movement requires muscle, so it’s correct to say it is a change in the way we perform our techniques.

 

[TSDTexan]

the short answer

technique: the thing or things you "DO" with your body to avoid, defend aginst, or attack your opponent.

concept: 1. the how and why of techniques.
2. the things you should know that can be leveraged to increase your likelihood of preventing an attacker or attackers from harming you.

the first use would be akin understanding the biomechanics of the technique.

anyone can learn to make the motion of an upper rising block.
but what can you do with it?
Is it just a block to protect your head from an incoming blow?
can it be applied in other contexts?
can you use it as a strike to the throat or chin?
can you use it as a shove to off balance your opponent?
The answer is yes, yes, and yes.
Most people wind up walking away from karate before learning that the principles behind the upper rising block are deeper than just a mere block.

If you don't have an understanding of the biomechanics of the "block", then the technique is lacking. The structure or posture cannot support the weight and energy transfer effective, and power or balance is lost.
This is the concept behind the rising block.


Example of number 2. use of the word concept:
Be aware of your surroundings at all times. how does this concept work?

i know of a Korean who found himself in a fight against multiple attackers. He remembered there was a nearby doorway. He ran to the doorway and chose to defend himself there.
He reduced the number of directions he could be attacked from. (A martial arts concept.)
They were forced to come at him one at a time.
After he dropped the first three, the group gave up.

a good book on concepts would be the 5 methods of attack by bruce lee.

 

[Martial D]

I think he's just saying that's a different usage of the terms than his. What you call here "technique" and "concept" I'd call "correct form" and "reason".

I'm just extrapolating from the actual definitions of those two words(technique and concept)

tech·nique
/tekˈnēk/
Learn to pronounce
noun

1. a way of carrying out a particular task, especially the execution or performance of an artistic work or a scientific procedure.
   • skill or ability in a particular field.
     "he has excellent technique

con·cept
/ˈkänˌsept/
Learn to pronounce
noun

1. an abstract idea; a general notion.
   "structuralism is a difficult concept"

Which rolls around to my first post;
The way of carrying out or executing the task:

Throw the hook with your elbow tight.

The general idea behind doing that;

It's harder to stop and will generate more power.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I took first semester calculus in high school, from my high school math teacher. He had a particular method of teaching math. He explained things a certain way, he gave us certain sets of problems to do as homework, he walked us through the proofs required using certain explanations. When I got to college, I retook first semester calculus... with a college professor. He had a completely different way of teaching math. He explained things differently, gave us different sets of problems to do as homework. He walked us through the proofs, but had different ways to explain them and hit on different points. These were two totally different views of the same thing... At the end of the day the derivative of a specific function, is the same, no matter which teacher (and which teaching method) was doing the teaching.

I guess thats how I see the difference between the Judo type arts and the aiki type arts. They are both going to the same place, studying the same things... just different homework problems and different explanations of the proofs in class. Different students respond to one approach or the other. At the end of the day, technique does not matter... only the principles that get applied.

I pretty much agree with that. If you looked at some of what I teach, it'd look like Judo to you. In fact, when I teach things that I don't consider "pure aiki", I typically refer to it as a "Judo approach", because we're still not clashing, but not waiting for an opening that allows pure aiki principles (think if all Judo throws had to be done without significant pulling, and pushes were done mostly with straight arms, rather than using arm muscles). You can see that overlap in Tomiki (Shotokan) Aikido, as well. I see it as a continuum. Pure aiki is at one end, and "hard" Judo (what you end up with when you're working against someone who's at your level and counters you well, where you have to make use of muscle on a regular basis) is at the other. Even the more "aiki" of the aiki arts play some things toward the middle, and Judo definitely gets toward the middle often enough, especially during drills and formal practice. I really like that middle area where the two overlap, and like to wander toward both ends from time to time.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'm just extrapolating from the actual definitions of those two words(technique and concept)

tech·nique
/tekˈnēk/
Learn to pronounce
noun

1. a way of carrying out a particular task, especially the execution or performance of an artistic work or a scientific procedure.
   • skill or ability in a particular field.
     "he has excellent technique

con·cept
/ˈkänˌsept/
Learn to pronounce
noun

1. an abstract idea; a general notion.
   "structuralism is a difficult concept"

Which rolls around to my first post;
The way of carrying out or executing the task:

Throw the hook with your elbow tight.

The general idea behind doing that;

It's harder to stop and will generate more power.

I can see that. Even using those definitions, I'd have a broader distinction, though. The hook punch would be the technique (including the proper formation, and the why of that formation). A related concept would be using round strikes to get around tight center guards and using straight strikes to penetrate an effective outside guard.

It's semantics. I don't think there's a right or wrong in this - just pointing out that's what I think he was getting at.

 

[JP3]

I switched from a technique-based art, Judo, to a more concept-based art in Tai Chi.

In a stand up grappling for Judo, I may attempt a technique that I am more comfortable with, let's say a Tai-otoshi against an opponent. To achieve that I would go through the steps in the technique, ensuring I break the opponent's balance by pulling his sleeve, placing my other arm against his chest while stepping into the correct stance in relation to his position to execute the throw. The success of the throw depends largely on the correct applications of the steps in a technique and timing. There are different ways to move into a technique, but in execution the form must be adhered to for maximum efficacy.

In a similar situation for Tai Chi, I would ensure my own equilibrium and rooting, instinctively feel for the imbalance and involuntary rigidity in my opponent. In my mind there are no steps or prescribed technique, instead I would try to remain as relaxed as possible and move my opponent into 'emptiness' using trained non-muscular torque or springing force; this results in throwing him off balance or straight down on his face if successful, and it depends on conforming to the principles of the art against normal instinct. The execution of a takedown may vary in its form but the underlying concept remains unchanged.

Your description of concept above is precisely how Bob Rea the Judo guy I mentioned in the "How did you get here thread" describes properly doing judo randori. Interesting. It's not literally word-for-word, but it's got a Lot of the same words in his description as you did for tai chi.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Techniques: O Soto Gari (major outside reap), O Goshi (hip throw)
Concepts: Disrupt the opponent's balance and structure before trying to throw them, attack the weak angle

Depending on how granular you want to be in your definitions, there are countless possible techniques. They're all just situational applications of a much smaller number of concepts.

 

[punisher73]

Techniques: O Soto Gari (major outside reap), O Goshi (hip throw)
Concepts: Disrupt the opponent's balance and structure before trying to throw them, attack the weak angle

Depending on how granular you want to be in your definitions, there are countless possible techniques. They're all just situational applications of a much smaller number of concepts.

Agreed, if we stick with the Judo/Throws idea. Every single Judo throw will have the same "concept" to them (as you already illustrated). From that concept, you can create multiple techniques from that concept.

The "concept" of a technique is the principles that make it work. The technique is a physical manifestation of those ideas. As you have stated, there can be multiple manifestations of a concept.

Then you can get into tactics and strategy to really start to flush out your combat approach.

 

[Gweilo]

IMHO a concept is JKD the process of combining different arts to over come an opponent, blending seamlessly from muay Thai into wing chun, into any other art at will. Also in Systema, you work on the concept, of controlling your emotins, moving in a natural fluid, efficient way in order to apply a technique.

 

[Buka]

To the single guy -

The concept is going out, having a good time, and having a pretty girl come home with you.
The technique is the complete BS you tell her so she will.

To the married guy -

The concept is going out and having a good time.
The technique is playing golf with your friends and drinking beer.

 

[JR 137]

To the single guy -

The concept is going out, having a good time, and having a pretty girl come home with you.
The technique is the complete BS you tell her so she will.

To the married guy -

The concept is going out and having a good time.
The technique is playing golf with your friends and drinking beer.

You forgot about the BS you tell her so you can play golf and have a few beers.

For the record, I’m not a golfer.