What do people mean when they ask if an art is more offensive or defensive?

[harlan]

'knickers'

knickers

to knick

oh well...you'll never know. :uhyeah:

 

[grumpywolfman]

I does, it's the same for me or else I'd be writing ..'knickers'... just to see what shows, perhaps it does for non supporting members :wink1:

I was so tempted to just try that

 

[D.Cobb]

Offense tends to mean bringing the fight to the other guy.
Defense tends to mean letting Them bring the fight to You.
I prefer being able to do both.

I prefer not to fight at all

 

[D.Cobb]

<snip>

Uh... logic really doesn't have a huge role when dealing with self defence, or combative methods in general. Wrong part of the mind. But, for the record, I wouldn't agree with that definition. I'd say that you haven't finished defending yourself until you have managed to alter circumstances to the point where you are no longer being attacked, or in danger. That might be leaving the environment, it might be knocking someone out, it might be restraining an aggressor, it could be any of a number of things. If you've just got the attacker to think about something other than attacking, that could be rather momentary, especially in the context of the Krav Maga approach you describe.

Where did you get that definition from? "Two willing participants"? How does that then feature in gang assaults? Or pitched battle? And "willing"? How often is the mugged victim "willing"? And you're really not getting what you're being told here. Yes, most, if not all systems will feature both offensive and defensive actions, the question is about the overall focus/approach of particular arts.<snip>

Very well described Chris. :s507:

Something that seems to jump out at me from Marcy's posts is a self defense perception, born from years in sports martial arts. It's the idea that pain can be used to make your opponent back down and "think of something else" etc. that I find scary coming from anyone that claims to teach self defence. :s424:

--David:bangahead:

 

[oftheherd1]

Very well described Chris. :s507:

Something that seems to jump out at me from Marcy's posts is a self defense perception, born from years in sports martial arts. It's the idea that pain can be used to make your opponent back down and "think of something else" etc. that I find scary coming from anyone that claims to teach self defence. :s424:

--David:bangahead:

I, but it is not an official stance of my Kwan, often characterize Hapkido as an art that intends to take away an attacker's will to fight, or his ability to fight.

If I am skilled enough that every time an attacker attempts to grab, punch, or kick me, one or more parts of his body suddenly suffer from excruciating pain, he will begin to loose his will to continue the fight. That can be from pressure point application, counter punching or kicking, joint locks, eye gouging, or whatever.

If I am skilled enought that when attacked, I can sufficiently damage some part of an attacker's anatomy, to the extent that he is unable to fight, I have taken away his ability to fight even if he maintains the will to fight. If I take out a knee joint or an ankle, he cannot stand on two legs. He is more at my mercy, or I can run away. If I scratch both of his eyes, for a while, he cannot see, so he can't effectively fight. He is more at my mercy, or I can run away. If I break a wrist or elbow, he is still on his feet, but now his will to fight may be damaged because of pain, and his fighting ability is lessened; he cannot use all the tools in his arsenal. If he attacks and looses another limb, he is more at my mercy, or I can run away.

My training is not acheived in a weekend seminar. If that is what you mean in you comment of what scares you, your comment has more merit. And I am not saying I am a superman either.

But I have met Hapkidoists that would cause you enough pain you truely would immediately begin thinking you might have more important business to attend to than to attack them a second or third time. And that you were very late in attending to that business.

I was never as good as they, and hope I never have to find out if even so, I am sufficiently skilled to change an attacker's will or ability. But it is what I trained for. And don't most MA do the same?

 

[Cyriacus]

I prefer not to fight at all

...So You shouldnt prepare for when You may not have much of a choice?

 

[WC_lun]

I, but it is not an official stance of my Kwan, often characterize Hapkido as an art that intends to take away an attacker's will to fight, or his ability to fight.

If I am skilled enough that every time an attacker attempts to grab, punch, or kick me, one or more parts of his body suddenly suffer from excruciating pain, he will begin to loose his will to continue the fight. That can be from pressure point application, counter punching or kicking, joint locks, eye gouging, or whatever.

If I am skilled enought that when attacked, I can sufficiently damage some part of an attacker's anatomy, to the extent that he is unable to fight, I have taken away his ability to fight even if he maintains the will to fight. If I take out a knee joint or an ankle, he cannot stand on two legs. He is more at my mercy, or I can run away. If I scratch both of his eyes, for a while, he cannot see, so he can't effectively fight. He is more at my mercy, or I can run away. If I break a wrist or elbow, he is still on his feet, but now his will to fight may be damaged because of pain, and his fighting ability is lessened; he cannot use all the tools in his arsenal. If he attacks and looses another limb, he is more at my mercy, or I can run away.

My training is not acheived in a weekend seminar. If that is what you mean in you comment of what scares you, your comment has more merit. And I am not saying I am a superman either.

But I have met Hapkidoists that would cause you enough pain you truely would immediately begin thinking you might have more important business to attend to than to attack them a second or third time. And that you were very late in attending to that business.

I was never as good as they, and hope I never have to find out if even so, I am sufficiently skilled to change an attacker's will or ability. But it is what I trained for. And don't most MA do the same?

Pain compliance techniques are all well and good to know. They can be effective on some drunk who is not really intent on fighting, just causing a scene. However, someone who is intent on hurting you, with thier adrenaline and/or drugs in thier system, pain compliance will not be very effective, in my experience. Sometimes you will run across people that do not feel pain when angry. In both these cases, rather than rely on pain compliance, you must either control or damage the attacker in a way that he cannot hurt you. Pain compliance techniques also usually require precise actions, which in a full speed encounter are difficult at best.

 

[seasoned]

Very well described Chris. :s507:

Something that seems to jump out at me from Marcy's posts is a self defense perception, born from years in sports martial arts. It's the idea that pain can be used to make your opponent back down and "think of something else" etc. that I find scary coming from anyone that claims to teach self defence. :s424:

--David:bangahead:

My Sensei stressed many times over many years that pain was never a deterrent. Never depend on pain alone to meet an objective. Some times things have to break to get compliance. This is self defense.................

 

[Dirty Dog]

Pain compliance techniques are all well and good to know. They can be effective on some drunk who is not really intent on fighting, just causing a scene. However, someone who is intent on hurting you, with thier adrenaline and/or drugs in thier system, pain compliance will not be very effective, in my experience. Sometimes you will run across people that do not feel pain when angry. In both these cases, rather than rely on pain compliance, you must either control or damage the attacker in a way that he cannot hurt you. Pain compliance techniques also usually require precise actions, which in a full speed encounter are difficult at best.

While nothing is 100%, I will say that of the many many people I've had to subdue in the ER, the ones who did not respond to pain have been a very small minority. If we exclude those who were so strung out on meth or PCP as to have little or no contact with the real world, the number is vanishingly small.

Be prepared to use more drastic measures if needed, certainly. But pain compliance is very effective in the real world.

 

[Chris Parker]

When it comes to pain compliance, I think it's important to recognize all the factors in whether or not it's going to have the desired result. For instance, ofhteherd1 talks about the amount of pain that his Hapkido instructor could apply using the techniques of the art, and how that can "take the fight" out of someone. However, the thing that needs to be remembered there is that the dojo/dojang/kwoon is an artificial environment, with the surrounding factors very different to a real attack/defence situation. Everything from the effects (and degree) of adrenaline, which isn't present in the training environment, through to the psychological aspects of the training hall being a "safe" environment, and the belief in the abilities of the instructor, can all work towards techniques having a more tangible effect there than they would against a "real" attack. And when it comes to Dirty Dogs experiences in the ER, again, it's a different environment. Honestly, I'm not surprised that pain compliance works there. It also works very well against non-violent offenders (such as the so-called "pressure point" tactics employed by some police forces against sit-in, or peaceful protests).

But when you start dealing with serious (violent) adrenaline dumps, then it becomes significantly less reliable. People have been shot, or stabbed, without having taken serious drugs (such as PCP, Ice, or anything else) and not realized, so I really don't consider it something to bet the farm on. One of my favourite stories to illustrate the shortcomings of pain compliance outside of the less-realistic training environment is from Ellis Amdur, originally posted by him on E-Budo (http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24710&page=2)

I do have one other kyusho story though. I had a very close friend who ws a judoka. A very sturdy man - five feet, eight inches, and one hundred eighty pounds - all muscle. We were drinking a few beers at his house, and I decided to f** with him (he was my friend, after all) and try something out at the same time. (Actually, we'd had quite a few beers.) I turned to him and said, "You know, thanks to my studies in koryu, judo appears to me to be mere kid's stuff, easily defeated."
Y - "You shouldn't kid around like that, Ellis."
E - "No, I mean it. I'm now completely invulnerable to being choked out."
Y - "You may think that's funny, but you shouldn't say things like that! Some people could take it seriously and get pissed off."
E -"Oh, you don't think I'm serious then. Go ahead and try to choke me, then." My friend had a hot temper, so we were good to go. To make it even easier for him, I put on my kiekko gi top, lay on my back, and he put on a cross-collar choke. "Go ahead," I said. "Sorry to hurt your feelings like this, but you should know the deficiencies of what you were studying all these years."
He cinched on the choke and just as it was tightening, I took my knuckles and simultaneously pressed with all my might at the bottom of his floating ribs. (Note: The man was an expert, doing what he did best. He was relaxed. And drunk. Relaxed even more.) He shot completely over my head, and I shrugged his hands off my collar.
The man was devastated. He sat there with his head in his hands, saying, "I don't believe it. You've destroyed my life. So this is kyushojutsu! My judo is nothing." (We were very drunk, actually).
I had another beer, and had mercy on him. And I wanted to see if what my teacher (mentioned in the last post) was telling me the truth about kyusho and tsubo. I said, "Wanna try again."
"What would be the point?" he said. He was really hurting. If this had been a couple hundred of years ago, he would have had to give me his dojo. I would have let him sleep in the back yard with the maid. . . .wait a minute. That's not so bad! Anyway, to continue.
E- "O.K. Listen. Listen to me, brother! This is important! Imagine you don't know me. You know that statue of your father downstairs? You don't know me and I came into your house and broke it. Your dead dad's statue in pieces all over the floor. Then I laughed at your mother when she saw it and began crying. Then I molested your sister! I did! Imagining all that? Good. Now, c'mon. Choke me now. Choke me now!" Remember the old Mickey Mouse cartoons, where there is a bull in a field, and he turns color and smoke comes out of his nose and ears. Y was sort of like that - anyway, something was coming out of his nose at that point - and he got the "mount" and cinched on the choke. HARD. I used my knuckles again. It was like pushing into corregated steel. I started to go out, and I thought, "What the f***. Let's take it all the way." I spread my arms wide, and hit him with my knuckles right in the floating rib points as hard as I possible could. Once. Twice.
Fade to black. When I awoke, Y was pouring himself a beer with a relieved look on his face. "Thanks, Ellis. I was worried there for a second."
E - "Was I out a long time?"
Y - "Oh, no, not that. I mean, I was worried about my judo."

To my mind, that shows quite clearly the difference between the effect in a training mentality (the first choking attempt), and a non-training mentality (the second attempt). While I think pain compliance certainly has it's place (in non-violent encounters, in situations like body-guarding/principal protection, security work, or an ER, or against "peaceful protesters" and so on), and it's something that features in our methods as well (I tend to think of more as discouraging further attacks, giving the aggressor a chance to realize that, if they keep going, things are only going to get worse for them, rather than overtly being a method of stopping them straight away), I really wouldn't rely on it as a single definitive method to ensure your safety.

 

[pgsmith]

[h=2]

What do people mean when they ask if an art is more offensive or defensive?

[/h] I've seen quite a number of arts that I would deem offensive, but that has nothing to do with attack or defense.