What arts are incompatible with each other?

[now disabled]

What I see in the first video is not clear. The interview video - where he's using the interviewer as uke - seems much clearer. I've had a smidge of experience with some folks who were able to do similar things (one I think was actually a Taiji practitioner/instructor), and I even see some bits of it in my own work, though without the impressive rooting I see in that video.

So, with an inexperienced (at Taiji) uke, it's not that foreign in concept. There's some redirection, some impressive rooting and reflecting, and some of what I call "passing" - an aspect of blending where the force of an incoming push is allowed to pass just far enough that it can't exert any real effect before it can be altered. I can do much of what was in that interview video, though I won't look nearly as good, and will work harder for it than he appeared to. I might be doing it differently than he is, too, since I'm interpreting through my own knowledge.

My friend have you ever seen or been exposed t any of the KI Aikido of Tohei etc ?

 

[wab25]

I'm sorry, my curiosity doesn't extend to the 22 hour drive or the plane ticket I would need to purchase

You could look for an Aikido or Daito Ryu school near you. They should both be able to allow you to feel similar things. What they are showing in that video is not uncommon.

In order to understand what you are seeing there, you have to first realize that you are not looking at TKD. By that, I mean, they are not trying to throw a realistic attack, or even an effective attack, and then trying to effectively defeat that attack. You are correct, people are probably not ever going to be attacked like that, and if they are, there are plenty of simpler responses that are far more effective at defeating the attacker. But, thats not the point here.

They are working on some principles and ideas, that can be very subtle. As such, they are very hard to practice, and even harder to pass on. So, they created drills with the idea of making things that are small a subtle, big enough to learn and practice.

The attacker is not so much "attacking" the other guy as he is giving the other guy what he needs in order to practice and learn. So, uke (the attacker and receiver of the technique) often makes a "bad" attack. He telegraphs what he is doing, he over commits, and over extends. This way, the guy doing the technique, has the right energy, in a big quantity, so that he can work on the subtle technique.

Lets talk about the jump back at 1:17 that you brought up. Realize that prior to that, the attackers grip was corrected to be in a specific place. This is not an attack, so much as it is a situation to practice and learn. (or demo in this case) If the attacker were to keep his grip, and never let go he would end up in a wrist lock. (z lock... you should recognize it from you Hapkido) Additionally, when the lock starts to come on, the attackers posture would start to be compromised. In this demo, the attacker chooses to disengage and jump back, instead of allowing his posture to break and the lock to be applied. I would prefer to see those things happen, rather than the jump back... in my opinion, that would be better... but its their demo.

The thing they are looking at, is not the attack, not the defense against the attack, not the lock, and not even the push back. They are looking at taking the energy given from the attacker, redirecting it and then using it against him. When the grab happens, the attacker is over reaching, and giving his balance to the guy demonstrating. The guy demonstrating, is keeping that energy going, and using it to further off balance the other guy, and then using it to manipulate the other guy. Most importantly, he is making this big enough, that those being taught can try it out and find the principle. Once people find the principles, they start making them smaller.

Does it work? Well, define work. When I was training MMA, there was a guy their who had done Judo before. For fun, he and I were working on a foot prop throw. You use the gi, to pull the other guy into a forward step, but you use your foot to prevent him from stepping forward. He then makes a nice flip in the air, into a nice pretty fall. One of the MMA guys started to tell us that looks pretty, but would never work. The MMA instructor told me to throw him that way. I took the back of his head, and elbow, pulled him into a forward step, and propped his foot. No fancy flip, no pretty fall. But, he went face and shoulder first, into the mat. (pretty quickly actually) So, did it work? It did not look pretty. It did not produce the nice flip into the pretty fall... so it must not work. It did land him pretty quickly on the ground, with a thump. (he did not appreciate hitting his shoulder that way)... so it worked.

Does this subtle stuff work? In the real world, it probably won't cause the other guy to jump back like a cat, or flip through the air or many times even fall. But, it will take your balance and break your stance. This takes away your power and ability to effectively continue. Sure, you can make another move to recover, but he can also make another move while you make your recovery move. He will have many options, if you look at the openings produced by the off balancing and posture breaking. He is also still in a position to attack effectively, while you are not.

This type of training may not be your cup of tea. But, it should at least be seen for what it is. They are training the small details that most of us skip over. If we could apply these details in what we do already, it will greatly improve what we currently do. What if your block not only blocked the attack, but broke the other guys balance and posture? What if you could determine in which direction? What if you had multiple options, and could choose which way to send him and which way to open him up?

This isn't my favorite demo of this type of stuff. I would rather not see the proactive jump back. But, the part they are studying is still there. Have you ever done a self defense demo in TKD, where you kicked a guy who fell over? Did you really make contact hard enough to knock him down? Were you able to demonstrate your idea, even though the other guy took the fall for you?

 

[now disabled]

You could look for an Aikido or Daito Ryu school near you. They should both be able to allow you to feel similar things. What they are showing in that video is not uncommon.

I would think you may struggle to find Daito-ryu and as far as Aikido is concerned imo you be better looking for KI Aikido school ...yes in Aikikai etc there most definitely is what you are talking about but it is more pronounced in the Ki style imo

 

[skribs]

You could look for an Aikido or Daito Ryu school near you. They should both be able to allow you to feel similar things. What they are showing in that video is not uncommon.

In order to understand what you are seeing there, you have to first realize that you are not looking at TKD. By that, I mean, they are not trying to throw a realistic attack, or even an effective attack, and then trying to effectively defeat that attack. You are correct, people are probably not ever going to be attacked like that, and if they are, there are plenty of simpler responses that are far more effective at defeating the attacker. But, thats not the point here.

They are working on some principles and ideas, that can be very subtle. As such, they are very hard to practice, and even harder to pass on. So, they created drills with the idea of making things that are small a subtle, big enough to learn and practice.

The attacker is not so much "attacking" the other guy as he is giving the other guy what he needs in order to practice and learn. So, uke (the attacker and receiver of the technique) often makes a "bad" attack. He telegraphs what he is doing, he over commits, and over extends. This way, the guy doing the technique, has the right energy, in a big quantity, so that he can work on the subtle technique.

Lets talk about the jump back at 1:17 that you brought up. Realize that prior to that, the attackers grip was corrected to be in a specific place. This is not an attack, so much as it is a situation to practice and learn. (or demo in this case) If the attacker were to keep his grip, and never let go he would end up in a wrist lock. (z lock... you should recognize it from you Hapkido) Additionally, when the lock starts to come on, the attackers posture would start to be compromised. In this demo, the attacker chooses to disengage and jump back, instead of allowing his posture to break and the lock to be applied. I would prefer to see those things happen, rather than the jump back... in my opinion, that would be better... but its their demo.

The thing they are looking at, is not the attack, not the defense against the attack, not the lock, and not even the push back. They are looking at taking the energy given from the attacker, redirecting it and then using it against him. When the grab happens, the attacker is over reaching, and giving his balance to the guy demonstrating. The guy demonstrating, is keeping that energy going, and using it to further off balance the other guy, and then using it to manipulate the other guy. Most importantly, he is making this big enough, that those being taught can try it out and find the principle. Once people find the principles, they start making them smaller.

Does it work? Well, define work. When I was training MMA, there was a guy their who had done Judo before. For fun, he and I were working on a foot prop throw. You use the gi, to pull the other guy into a forward step, but you use your foot to prevent him from stepping forward. He then makes a nice flip in the air, into a nice pretty fall. One of the MMA guys started to tell us that looks pretty, but would never work. The MMA instructor told me to throw him that way. I took the back of his head, and elbow, pulled him into a forward step, and propped his foot. No fancy flip, no pretty fall. But, he went face and shoulder first, into the mat. (pretty quickly actually) So, did it work? It did not look pretty. It did not produce the nice flip into the pretty fall... so it must not work. It did land him pretty quickly on the ground, with a thump. (he did not appreciate hitting his shoulder that way)... so it worked.

Does this subtle stuff work? In the real world, it probably won't cause the other guy to jump back like a cat, or flip through the air or many times even fall. But, it will take your balance and break your stance. This takes away your power and ability to effectively continue. Sure, you can make another move to recover, but he can also make another move while you make your recovery move. He will have many options, if you look at the openings produced by the off balancing and posture breaking. He is also still in a position to attack effectively, while you are not.

This type of training may not be your cup of tea. But, it should at least be seen for what it is. They are training the small details that most of us skip over. If we could apply these details in what we do already, it will greatly improve what we currently do. What if your block not only blocked the attack, but broke the other guys balance and posture? What if you could determine in which direction? What if you had multiple options, and could choose which way to send him and which way to open him up?

This isn't my favorite demo of this type of stuff. I would rather not see the proactive jump back. But, the part they are studying is still there. Have you ever done a self defense demo in TKD, where you kicked a guy who fell over? Did you really make contact hard enough to knock him down? Were you able to demonstrate your idea, even though the other guy took the fall for you?

We don't really use the names of the locks in my HKD school. They're more numbered than named.

If this really is a case of "wrist lock is starting, better get away," it still appears to be an overreaction, where the "bad guy" is moving away of his own free will. I would much rather see the effect of the technique than see the technique start followed by a jump away.

(Not that I want to see the wrist lock finished by actually breaking his wrist...I just want to see what it would do).

 

[Buka]

I don't thing Sinanju and Ameri-Do-Te mesh well. Others may disagree.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

My friend have you ever seen or been exposed t any of the KI Aikido of Tohei etc ?

No, I’ve never had the pleasure, though there is a Shin-Shin-Toitsu school not far from me.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You could look for an Aikido or Daito Ryu school near you. They should both be able to allow you to feel similar things. What they are showing in that video is not uncommon.

In order to understand what you are seeing there, you have to first realize that you are not looking at TKD. By that, I mean, they are not trying to throw a realistic attack, or even an effective attack, and then trying to effectively defeat that attack. You are correct, people are probably not ever going to be attacked like that, and if they are, there are plenty of simpler responses that are far more effective at defeating the attacker. But, thats not the point here.

They are working on some principles and ideas, that can be very subtle. As such, they are very hard to practice, and even harder to pass on. So, they created drills with the idea of making things that are small a subtle, big enough to learn and practice.

The attacker is not so much "attacking" the other guy as he is giving the other guy what he needs in order to practice and learn. So, uke (the attacker and receiver of the technique) often makes a "bad" attack. He telegraphs what he is doing, he over commits, and over extends. This way, the guy doing the technique, has the right energy, in a big quantity, so that he can work on the subtle technique.

Lets talk about the jump back at 1:17 that you brought up. Realize that prior to that, the attackers grip was corrected to be in a specific place. This is not an attack, so much as it is a situation to practice and learn. (or demo in this case) If the attacker were to keep his grip, and never let go he would end up in a wrist lock. (z lock... you should recognize it from you Hapkido) Additionally, when the lock starts to come on, the attackers posture would start to be compromised. In this demo, the attacker chooses to disengage and jump back, instead of allowing his posture to break and the lock to be applied. I would prefer to see those things happen, rather than the jump back... in my opinion, that would be better... but its their demo.

The thing they are looking at, is not the attack, not the defense against the attack, not the lock, and not even the push back. They are looking at taking the energy given from the attacker, redirecting it and then using it against him. When the grab happens, the attacker is over reaching, and giving his balance to the guy demonstrating. The guy demonstrating, is keeping that energy going, and using it to further off balance the other guy, and then using it to manipulate the other guy. Most importantly, he is making this big enough, that those being taught can try it out and find the principle. Once people find the principles, they start making them smaller.

Does it work? Well, define work. When I was training MMA, there was a guy their who had done Judo before. For fun, he and I were working on a foot prop throw. You use the gi, to pull the other guy into a forward step, but you use your foot to prevent him from stepping forward. He then makes a nice flip in the air, into a nice pretty fall. One of the MMA guys started to tell us that looks pretty, but would never work. The MMA instructor told me to throw him that way. I took the back of his head, and elbow, pulled him into a forward step, and propped his foot. No fancy flip, no pretty fall. But, he went face and shoulder first, into the mat. (pretty quickly actually) So, did it work? It did not look pretty. It did not produce the nice flip into the pretty fall... so it must not work. It did land him pretty quickly on the ground, with a thump. (he did not appreciate hitting his shoulder that way)... so it worked.

Does this subtle stuff work? In the real world, it probably won't cause the other guy to jump back like a cat, or flip through the air or many times even fall. But, it will take your balance and break your stance. This takes away your power and ability to effectively continue. Sure, you can make another move to recover, but he can also make another move while you make your recovery move. He will have many options, if you look at the openings produced by the off balancing and posture breaking. He is also still in a position to attack effectively, while you are not.

This type of training may not be your cup of tea. But, it should at least be seen for what it is. They are training the small details that most of us skip over. If we could apply these details in what we do already, it will greatly improve what we currently do. What if your block not only blocked the attack, but broke the other guys balance and posture? What if you could determine in which direction? What if you had multiple options, and could choose which way to send him and which way to open him up?

This isn't my favorite demo of this type of stuff. I would rather not see the proactive jump back. But, the part they are studying is still there. Have you ever done a self defense demo in TKD, where you kicked a guy who fell over? Did you really make contact hard enough to knock him down? Were you able to demonstrate your idea, even though the other guy took the fall for you?

That’s a better explanation than I’ve ever managed for aiki training.

 

[now disabled]

No, I’ve never had the pleasure, though there is a Shin-Shin-Toitsu school not far from me.

Go along and have a look see as the KI boys are more into that kinda thing

 

[zzj]

We don't really use the names of the locks in my HKD school. They're more numbered than named.

If this really is a case of "wrist lock is starting, better get away," it still appears to be an overreaction, where the "bad guy" is moving away of his own free will. I would much rather see the effect of the technique than see the technique start followed by a jump away.

(Not that I want to see the wrist lock finished by actually breaking his wrist...I just want to see what it would do).

He is not jumping away of his own free will, I have to emphasize that again. It certainly looks like he does but there is no benefit or merit for him to do that in a demonstration.... what Mizner did was to control, break his balance and send him away simultaneously.

Look at the video below.
Liang De Hua is Mizner's friend and they have much in common except that he is less subtle in his movements so you can better tell what is going on. This video is interesting because it shows a visitor from US experiencing this type of skill fro the first time. Note how his genuine amazement, how 'weird' it feels and how he 'cannot feel the arm' (as per my description)

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1974148715989739

Unlike with Mizner, I have actually experienced Liang De Hua's skill. He is a surprisingly humble and personable teacher.

 

[skribs]

He is not jumping away of his own free will, I have to emphasize that again. It certainly looks like he does but there is no benefit or merit for him to do that in a demonstration.... what Mizner did was to control, break his balance and send him away simultaneously.

Look at the video below.
Liang De Hua is Mizner's friend and they have much in common except that he is less subtle in his movements so you can better tell what is going on. This video is interesting because it shows a visitor from US experiencing this type of skill fro the first time. Note how his genuine amazement, how 'weird' it feels and how he 'cannot feel the arm' (as per my description)

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1974148715989739

Unlike with Mizner, I have actually experienced Liang De Hua's skill. He is a surprisingly humble and personable teacher.

With this one I can see a lot of why the "bad guy" is doing what he's doing.

With the first video you posted, the guy is definitely pushing off on his own.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

He is not jumping away of his own free will, I have to emphasize that again. It certainly looks like he does but there is no benefit or merit for him to do that in a demonstration.... what Mizner did was to control, break his balance and send him away simultaneously.

Look at the video below.
Liang De Hua is Mizner's friend and they have much in common except that he is less subtle in his movements so you can better tell what is going on. This video is interesting because it shows a visitor from US experiencing this type of skill fro the first time. Note how his genuine amazement, how 'weird' it feels and how he 'cannot feel the arm' (as per my description)

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1974148715989739

Unlike with Mizner, I have actually experienced Liang De Hua's skill. He is a surprisingly humble and personable teacher.

The difference I see is the nature of the hop back. The guy in this video uses a hop that’s just enough to regain his balance. I think the other guy hops a shade early to keep from having to stumble back. Does that make sense? This, again, has a parallel to some of the big breakfalls Aikidoka use: they could wait a little longer and be forced into a fall, but it would be rougher and actually take more energy.

 

[zzj]

that’s quite astute. I can wholeheartedly agree.

 

[now disabled]

Aikidoka use: they could wait a little longer and be forced into a fall, but it would be rougher and actually take more energy.

Oh how true that is ....but they should wait to be put over or down as that is part of being a good Uke ...flipping or falling just cause they know what is coming really helps no one ...and in all truth that is why alot of Aikido get such a rough time lol... Also (in Aikido in am speaking of) taking breakfalls and ukemi is really a missed part of the "whole" ...if you are deshi then you have to make that part of the whole as your gonna get a lot of it when your sensei is teaching lol... what most do not really get is imo you really can learn a heck of alot if you take full and proper ukemi and break falls ...but hey maybe I'm just old fashioned there lol

 

[now disabled]

He is not jumping away of his own free will, I have to emphasize that again. It certainly looks like he does but there is no benefit or merit for him to do that in a demonstration.... what Mizner did was to control, break his balance and send him away simultaneously.

Look at the video below.
Liang De Hua is Mizner's friend and they have much in common except that he is less subtle in his movements so you can better tell what is going on. This video is interesting because it shows a visitor from US experiencing this type of skill fro the first time. Note how his genuine amazement, how 'weird' it feels and how he 'cannot feel the arm' (as per my description)

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1974148715989739

Unlike with Mizner, I have actually experienced Liang De Hua's skill. He is a surprisingly humble and personable teacher.

The way I am viewing this video etc is (and this is only from my background)

The teacher is using Aiki and Ki

He is blending by accepting what the other guy is giving him by relaxing and not meeting it with force or strength and at least once he redirected it of to side the other times how I see it is he again used what I would call Aiki and blended and accepted what the other guy gave him and at the instant the other guy pushed (no matter how small a push) he relaxed thereby in the split second he over extended him (even by the smallest amount) thereby he had his centre and he had disrupted his structure and intent then he exploded it back at him (KI) when he was at his most vulnerable...may sound stupid but that is how I see it working ...it not mystical or secret it being able to use perfectly what he has studied

As to if he could do the same when another skilled person in either the same art or one that uses similar principles and techs that is another question entirely (and I am not hitting at the teacher btw)

 

[skribs]

Oh how true that is ....but they should wait to be put over or down as that is part of being a good Uke ...flipping or falling just cause they know what is coming really helps no one ...and in all truth that is why alot of Aikido get such a rough time lol... Also (in Aikido in am speaking of) taking breakfalls and ukemi is really a missed part of the "whole" ...if you are deshi then you have to make that part of the whole as your gonna get a lot of it when your sensei is teaching lol... what most do not really get is imo you really can learn a heck of alot if you take full and proper ukemi and break falls ...but hey maybe I'm just old fashioned there lol

I mean, in a demonstration there is a little of that. But you have to make it look real. (Hence my linking of the clip from Get Smart). If you're doing a demonstration, then most or all of it will be scripted and practiced. But it should be scripted and practiced to look as real as it can, while being as safe as it can.

We have a problem at our school of some of the kids underacting a lot, which makes the techniques not look as effective. This guy is overacting, which makes the techniques look fake.

I don't thing Sinanju and Ameri-Do-Te mesh well. Others may disagree.

Ameri-Do-Te doesn't mesh well with anything, because according to it, everything else is male bovine excrement. They also have a long-standing agreement with the rest of the community that if you convert to Ameri-Do-Te you can turn in your old tattered black belt in whatever pointless art you train in, and get a shiny new Ameri-Do-Te white belt. Seems like a good deal to me, because you get to join the only martial art in the world that is certified to be 100% street lethal. Unfortunately there are no Ameri-Do-Te dojos in the area for me to enter.

 

[now disabled]

This may be slightly of original topic and I am sure there will be a few folks that will not agree but I will post anyway lol (full Brim hard hat is firmly on lol)

An analogy first lol:-

Two guys are out in the woods bucking up timber .... one guy gets it wrong and the cut buck rolls on him trapping him ...his friend rushes over and proceeds to lift the buck of his buddy freeing him ...great ...however ordinarily he would never be able to have lifted that buck ...no way on his own ...so how did he ? was it fear, was it adrenaline was it he needed to act to help his friend ...whatever but from somewhere he drew that bit extra and performed something that ordinarily he could not have done. Us in the west would say it was possibly as I have already stated or it was super human etc etc etc ....In China and Japan they might well say he used not only his outer energy (his strength) but that he harnessed his Ki/Chi is give him the extra ...now most will just say no but did he ? to me he did he got the extra he needed and not from some mystical power or magic he got it from within as every human has that power born into them (some may say rubbish ...ok ...some may say I don't believe it ...ok ...some may not even give it a thought as they never had to do something like that ...ok but it came from somewhere) the trick is (i that the right word) is to be able to summon that from within that little bit extra and not just at times of crisis but at will when you need or want to (sound silly or nuts lol) and not even having to believe in any mystical force or superior beings or what ever ... to me everyone has it it just if we can use it and use the methods taught to bring it out.

Like Ueshiba Morihei when he gets stick for saying he was faking or people were just flipping for him ...I disagree and I base that on an interview I watched and I did post them where a deshi of his said (not a direct quote lol) I taught some military Police one day (time scale would mean probably US MP's) and when I did I used strong powerful Aikido put them done hard so they would see how powerful I was and Aikido was ....Then we went to a class being taught by Ueshiba Morihei and they would not believe it as I was uke and was getting sent rolling like a ball. The MP's would not believe it and said how as I was so powerful etc could I not put down an old man like that it had to be fake ...so he went and spoke to Ueshiba Morihei and told him and asked him if they could try ..He agreed and duly the big strong MP's all were put on their butts by the little old man ...after that the sensei explained to them it was his ki and his Aiki as he was totally incapable of defeating them with strength but it was not some magical power (I'm adding that bit as it is in context) but merely Ueshiba Morihei put them where he wanted them to be using his Aiki etc and put them down he was so well versed that he could and did have that "feel" and knowledge that he had that ability to put a person where he waned to put them by disrupting their force without opposing it with strength (he couldn't he would have been late 70's at least if not in his 80's) taking it and then simply making use of it and adding what he could summon from with in at will (the little extra) and put them down, Not by any magical power etc just because he was well versed and an adept at Aiki and knew how to pull that little extra when needed as he had spent years studying

Ok give me flak at will lol but Ki/Chi to me are not mystical powers at all just the little extra we all have and can have some of us (umm not me btw lol) can call it up at will and the Aiki well that is training study and many years of practice to attain the levels of being able to put a person where you want them and blend so much they dunno that is what is happening lol and return the force they give to your advantage ...to me nothing mystical just training and study and having the ability to react in the split second


Ok sorry for the rant I await the fire lol

 

[now disabled]

I mean, in a demonstration there is a little of that. But you have to make it look real. (Hence my linking of the clip from Get Smart). If you're doing a demonstration, then most or all of it will be scripted and practiced. But it should be scripted and practiced to look as real as it can, while being as safe as it can.

We have a problem at our school of some of the kids underacting a lot, which makes the techniques not look as effective. This guy is overacting, which makes the techniques look fake.

Bro i agree totally

But as I said most (not all )Uke these days will do the flips etc as they know what coming and think in doing that they are actually being good Uke

The prob with demos is imo the people there like seeing the big high falls and the spectacular throws and honestly I would say 99% of them don't know any better lol (not their fault) or actually care as that is what they want to see ...so the demo people give them that and if it gets students it pays the bills ....is it wrong ? yes ......and no .....it all depends really on what is taught in the real dojo and to an extent what the students training actually want

 

[skribs]

Bro i agree totally

But as I said most (not all )Uke these days will do the flips etc as they know what coming and think in doing that they are actually being good Uke

The prob with demos is imo the people there like seeing the big high falls and the spectacular throws and honestly I would say 99% of them don't know any better lol (not their fault) or actually care as that is what they want to see ...so the demo people give them that and if it gets students it pays the bills ....is it wrong ? yes ......and no .....it all depends really on what is taught in the real dojo and to an extent what the students training actually want

My point is, if it looks fake it won't actually get the students coming in.

 

[now disabled]

My point is, if it looks fake it won't actually get the students coming in.

I get you but as I said most of who attend the public demos would not know fake from real lol ...I am not being nasty just my opinion ...ye as MA we can usually tell if it fake but we are coming from backgrounds of MA not off the street ................In Aikido demos one should way to tell if the Uke is flipping is to look at the feet and where he/she is when the ukemi or breakfall starts ...but that only cause I kinda know where to look and what is actually demo Aikido what is classical and what no matter what unles ya really lucky lol will never work in reality but it looks good lol

 

[now disabled]

Believe me if you took ukemi/breakfalls as a deshi when your sensei was teaching and you did not take it properly then at the time they just would pick another Uke but look out after class as ummm you would get ya balls chewed lol...and well see getting your balls chewed when the person doing the chewing is being very polite is a very strange and unnerving experience lol