What arts are incompatible with each other?

[now disabled]

Well, the style of tai chi I'm currently training seems to be incompatible with all other mainstream martial arts, since it emphasizes the total abandonment of muscular force or training as shown in the video below.

Yeah, I know it looks fake as heck....

I get exactly what he is doing and trying to convey ...different terminology but I really do get what he is trying to convey and it is not incompatible at all ...it just takes more time to learn and teach yourself to do that as it easier to oppose force with force and for example if you are pushed you want to oppose that push with force where as absorbing that and redirecting that is a skill that is well worth learning as in so doing you are using what he is giving to you there by creating an opening ... I would call that Aiki lol and what the vid showed is just a drill but it is not incompatible at all not to me anyway

 

[skribs]

Well, the style of tai chi I'm currently training seems to be incompatible with all other mainstream martial arts, since it emphasizes the total abandonment of muscular force or training as shown in the video below.

Yeah, I know it looks fake as heck....

I get the general principle, but the video does look fake. I can't see any reason why the attacker is jumping back when his push fails. I also don't really see how this would work against something like a sweep.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Here is a good example that Taiji and wrestling are incompatible with each other.

In wrestling, when

- you drag your opponent's arm, you want to move behind his body.
- your opponent drags your arm, you want to step in outside of his leading leg.
- your opponent pushes you, you want to pull him with you.
- you are close to your opponent, you want to establish a leg connection.
- ...

None of the above are shown in this clip.

 

[zzj]

I get the general principle, but the video does look fake. I can't see any reason why the attacker is jumping back when his push fails. I also don't really see how this would work against something like a sweep.

No reason for anyone who hasn't had actual experience with this type of skill it to accept that it is real, I can only say that from my own standpoint of having been in a similar position, the student/uke/test dummy is not jumping back or falling on his own volition. Neither is he actively resisting the techniques applied to him, it's a demonstration after all.

 

[now disabled]

I get the general principle, but the video does look fake. I can't see any reason why the attacker is jumping back when his push fails. I also don't really see how this would work against something like a sweep.

Unless I am wrong that was merely an exercise to provide a connection and give the students a "feel"

Dealing with leg sweeps are a different ball game lol and I dunno how Tai chi deals with same

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Dealing with leg sweeps are a different ball game lol and I dunno how Tai chi deals with same

A Taiji "lotus kick" (outside crescent kick) will do.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I get the general principle, but the video does look fake. I can't see any reason why the attacker is jumping back when his push fails. I also don't really see how this would work against something like a sweep.

I agree. If I had the opportunity, I'd love to feel what he's doing. It might be that the hop is like an Aikido breakfall - it's bigger than the "necessary" result, because it avoids stumbling or some such. Or it might be fake - he's tricked himself into thinking that hop is necessary. Feeling the input would make it clear.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Here is a good example that Taiji and wrestling are incompatible with each other.

In wrestling, when

- you drag your opponent's arm, you want to move behind his body.
- your opponent drags your arm, you want to step in outside of his leading leg.
- your opponent pushes you, you want to pull him with you.
- you are close to your opponent, you want to establish a leg connection.
- ...

None of the above are shown in this clip.

This is where I see the blend: do all that, but be able to work with that total abandonment of force, as well, which adds another set of tools to the toolbox. So, he goes to arm drag, and suddenly has nothing to work with, then you switch back to wrestling while he's recovering.

 

[PiedmontChun]

Different priorities aren't that hard to reconcile in your personal style. The issue only arises when you're trying to be a purist AND access both at once.

This is excellent point. Even if you treat two systems you train as two distinct systems in practice, there is going to be some bleeding of one into the other that requires some compromise somewhere. I have often thought WC, being a mainly close quarters striking system, would pair well with BJJ for grappling. There is very little overlap, so in theory, you aren't mixing them at all - just transitioning from one "system" to another in the moment when the fighting range / situation changes. Having said that, I realize that WC emphasizes a very vertical and narrow stance, which is literally the opposite of how a BJJ grappler moves while on their feet. Some of that is the sport influence - a low stance with weight back and head forward doesn't make sense when there is a danger of striking, but makes perfect sense if someone is trying to control you by grabbing you lapel or with some type of under hook / over hook / clinch grip. If you only train one, then that's what you get accustomed to. If you train both - there is some cognitive dissonance created, and you have to discern which way to move at what time.

 

[now disabled]

This is where I see the blend: do all that, but be able to work with that total abandonment of force, as well, which adds another set of tools to the toolbox. So, he goes to arm drag, and suddenly has nothing to work with, then you switch back to wrestling while he's recovering.

Spot on it is another tool in the box you have at your disposal ...like covering all the bases so to speak (ok no one can ever do that but it like that)

 

[now disabled]

Bit of the thread but lol

On the subject of fake ...I just watched a long interview with Isoyama Hiroshi and I won't post it (it is long lol) however in one bit he touched on Ueshiba and what people thought when he did his demos and how people thought it was fake, it was interesting how he explained it, Maybe some will doubt him but in his time he was very well known for his extremely powerful Aikido and his views on how Aikido is taught these days (ie the uke actually being to compliant) was well if anyone interested it on you tube lol

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Bit of the thread but lol

On the subject of fake ...I just watched a long interview with Isoyama Hiroshi and I won't post it (it is long lol) however in one bit he touched on Ueshiba and what people thought when he did his demos and how people thought it was fake, it was interesting how he explained it, Maybe some will doubt him but in his time he was very well known for his extremely powerful Aikido and his views on how Aikido is taught these days (ie the uke actually being to compliant) was well if anyone interested it on you tube lol

It's easiest to just link to (or post) the videos here when you reference them, so others can see what you're talking about.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

My view is that any two systems can be combined, so long as you don't try to be a purist of either.

One day the Devil was out walking with a friend. As they walked they saw a man stumble across a piece of truth on the side of the road. Seeing this, the Devil smiled.

"Are you not upset?", his friend asked, "That man has just discovered a bit of truth."

"No worries," replied the Devil. "I shall let him make it a belief."

Combining "incompatible" styles is only a problem when you treat each technique, stance, exercise, or tactic in a given style as an unalterable one true way. Once you understand the elements and principles that make each technique work, then you can apply them as appropriate in a given context.

Practitioners of different martial arts don't have different laws of physics or biology. They're just engineering different solutions to a given situation based on different tradeoffs.

The analogy is sometimes made that you can't build a good car by combining the engine from a compact hybrid with the transmission of a race car and the body of a monster truck. That's the sort of combining you do without understanding. On the other hand, an automotive engineer will study the design of a compact hybrid, a pickup truck, an eighteen-wheeler, an SUV, a race car, and more, improving his or her understanding and ability to create an appropriate design for an appropriate context.

Studying different martial arts is the same thing. Don't think "here is the correct way to stand/move/generate power/execute a technique/etc. Instead, learn the principles and tradeoffs behind each idea and thereby gain the ability to move appropriately in different situations.

 

[now disabled]

It's easiest to just link to (or post) the videos here when you reference them, so others can see what you're talking about.

it over an hour and a half long lol

 

[Gerry Seymour]

it over an hour and a half long lol

That's fine. Folks don't have to watch the whole thing (or any of it, for that matter), and embedding the code doesn't take any significant space on the forum server.

 

[skribs]

it over an hour and a half long lol

So also post "watch at this time for the answer."

 

[skribs]

I agree. If I had the opportunity, I'd love to feel what he's doing. It might be that the hop is like an Aikido breakfall - it's bigger than the "necessary" result, because it avoids stumbling or some such. Or it might be fake - he's tricked himself into thinking that hop is necessary. Feeling the input would make it clear.

Bit of the thread but lol

On the subject of fake ...I just watched a long interview with Isoyama Hiroshi and I won't post it (it is long lol) however in one bit he touched on Ueshiba and what people thought when he did his demos and how people thought it was fake, it was interesting how he explained it, Maybe some will doubt him but in his time he was very well known for his extremely powerful Aikido and his views on how Aikido is taught these days (ie the uke actually being to compliant) was well if anyone interested it on you tube lol

I mean, don't get me wrong. I know some things can look fake. Half of what we learn in hapkido looks fake to those who've never felt it. In fact, when we first started our demonstration team at my dojang, I had to tell them NOT to use half of the hapkido stuff we do, because it looks fake unless you've felt it.

However, when looking at the video, I cannot see anything that would make the person hop back. I see that his push fails to gain traction, which should result in either him losing balance forward, or if he's got a solid stance then he should just be standing there. The only reason I would see to jump back is in the event that the power is reversed (which it didn't seem was the nature of the drill) or if there is some sort of pain compliance (i.e. a bend of the fingers) which I don't see happening.

All I see is that the attacker fails to get a grip on the defender, and then after failing to push him jumps away, seemingly of his own volition.

Now, it's possible that I could experience it and come up with a different understanding. But as it is, I see no reason why that is the reaction for failure.

 

[now disabled]

they are not demos just the interview

 

[VPT]

Adam Mizner has crushingly bad reputation among the "martially oriented" Taiji community.

That having been said, I personally believe he has certain level of some kind of skill. I have analysed some of his demonstrations in great length and can distinguish where there is pure suggestion and and over-acting going on with the demonstration partner and when there's not. In most cases there are lots of the former, occasionally also the latter.

However, I believe firmly that Adam Mizner is not a martial artist of any kind and that he does not teach any kind of martial arts. His teaching methodology is utterly unable to produce skilled athletes either in competitive or civilian protection contexts. Neither have his skills - or any of his students' skills - put to test against non-compliant, unpredictable and violent adversaries as far as I am aware of. Learning martial arts is about learning martial skills in martially appropriate context and everything about the circle ('cult' according to the bad tongues) of Adam Mizner suggests that this is not the case with his Taiji.

I don't think Mizner is a "fraud", "charlatan" or anything else he is called around. I think he has interesting skills, but he just doesn't teach martial arts.

 

[TSDTexan]

One day the Devil was out walking with a friend. As they walked they saw a man stumble across a piece of truth on the side of the road. Seeing this, the Devil smiled.

"Are you not upset?", his friend asked, "That man has just discovered a bit of truth."

"No worries," replied the Devil. "I shall let him make it a belief."

Combining "incompatible" styles is only a problem when you treat each technique, stance, exercise, or tactic in a given style as an unalterable one true way. Once you understand the elements and principles that make each technique work, then you can apply them as appropriate in a given context.

Practitioners of different martial arts don't have different laws of physics or biology. They're just engineering different solutions to a given situation based on different tradeoffs.

The analogy is sometimes made that you can't build a good car by combining the engine from a compact hybrid with the transmission of a race car and the body of a monster truck. That's the sort of combining you do without understanding. On the other hand, an automotive engineer will study the design of a compact hybrid, a pickup truck, an eighteen-wheeler, an SUV, a race car, and more, improving his or her understanding and ability to create an appropriate design for an appropriate context.

Studying different martial arts is the same thing. Don't think "here is the correct way to stand/move/generate power/execute a technique/etc. Instead, learn the principles and tradeoffs behind each idea and thereby gain the ability to move appropriately in different situations.

Excellent analogy.