What arts are incompatible with each other?

[zzj]

I mean, don't get me wrong. I know some things can look fake. Half of what we learn in hapkido looks fake to those who've never felt it. In fact, when we first started our demonstration team at my dojang, I had to tell them NOT to use half of the hapkido stuff we do, because it looks fake unless you've felt it.

However, when looking at the video, I cannot see anything that would make the person hop back. I see that his push fails to gain traction, which should result in either him losing balance forward, or if he's got a solid stance then he should just be standing there. The only reason I would see to jump back is in the event that the power is reversed (which it didn't seem was the nature of the drill) or if there is some sort of pain compliance (i.e. a bend of the fingers) which I don't see happening.

All I see is that the attacker fails to get a grip on the defender, and then after failing to push him jumps away, seemingly of his own volition.

Now, it's possible that I could experience it and come up with a different understanding. But as it is, I see no reason why that is the reaction for failure.

The reason he jumps is because there is simultaneous redirection which is subtly visible and a push that is practically invisible. Note that the direction of his ‘jumps’ are all slightly off his line.

Being able to manipulate your opponent with little to no outward movement is the hallmark of this branch of Cheng Man Ching tai chi. This is not because it looks impressive for demos (in fact looking fake is detrimental in the long run rather than merely impressive) but because you would have absolutely no visual or tactile cue of any incoming attack.

Again I wouldn’t expect anyone who had not felt this first hand to believe any of it. I have not met Mizner myself so I have no vested interest in promoting him; however I have experienced similar skills from others.

This is getting somewhat off-topic, so I hope my reply gives at least some sort of closure to this tangent.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The reason he jumps is because there is simultaneous redirection which is subtly visible and a push that is practically invisible. Note that the direction of his ‘jumps’ are all slightly off his line.

This is why wrestling and Taiji don't go together.

- In wrestling, you want to pull your opponent under your knee.
- In Taiji you want to push your opponent away.

I have never seen any wrestler who tries to push his opponent away. Old saying said, "You want to keep your friend close but your enemy closer."

- Strikers punch.
- Wrestlers pull.
- Taiji guys push.

I wish one day all Taiji guys will say, "I punch and I don't push."

 

[dvcochran]

My view is that any two systems can be combined, so long as you don't try to be a purist of either. If one teaches always lead with hip, and the other teaches always lead with foot, you just have to figure out what the advantages of each are, and develop your own approach to blending them. Maybe you find all the techniques work with the hip-first movement, so you just use that. Maybe you find that hip-first works best on front-hand techniques and all kicks, and everything else mostly works best (or at least not worse) with foot-first. Boxing teaches depend on the fists. BJJ almost never uses fists that I've seen. The two fit together quite nicely, once you stop trying to be a boxer while doing BJJ, a Jitser while boxing, or either in purity while moving back and forth between them.

Bear in mind, neither I nor anyone else, has experienced all available systems, so there may be an exception somewhere I can't conceive of.

Well said.

 

[skribs]

The reason he jumps is because there is simultaneous redirection which is subtly visible and a push that is practically invisible. Note that the direction of his ‘jumps’ are all slightly off his line.

Being able to manipulate your opponent with little to no outward movement is the hallmark of this branch of Cheng Man Ching tai chi. This is not because it looks impressive for demos (in fact looking fake is detrimental in the long run rather than merely impressive) but because you would have absolutely no visual or tactile cue of any incoming attack.

Again I wouldn’t expect anyone who had not felt this first hand to believe any of it. I have not met Mizner myself so I have no vested interest in promoting him; however I have experienced similar skills from others.

This is getting somewhat off-topic, so I hope my reply gives at least some sort of closure to this tangent.

Remember, I said I do have hapkido in my background. Not a lot, mind you. But enough to notice a lot of the stuff that looks fake, but is real.

1. So I'm looking at 1:17 in slow motion. The only contact I see is forearm-to-forearm push. There appears to be a lot of room for the "bad guy's" arm to give (meaning no push), and the position of the "bad guy" appears to be one that should have a firmer base, because he is facing into it with a front stance, while the "good guy" is twisting outside his centerline.
2. The next one is at 1:26. This one I see the hand get pushed back slightly, but not enough to cause pain. Not even close in my bad wrist. It's as if as soon as there's resistance, he jumps away. In fact, I'm watching him push off with his left arm, and use the energy from his hand being pushed back, to push off and jump.
3. 1:37 the "bad guy" is trying to push him by jumping, and instead pushes himself back. That's a poor attack on his part. (Sort of like how most arts do a punch defense against a haymaker instead of against someone using a complicated boxing combination).
4. 1:40 it's hard to see this one because the hands go behind, but it looks like the same as #2. As soon as the attacker feels any resistance he jumps away.
5. 1:43 there's a couple here where I'm not really sure what's going on. The "bad guy" touches his arm while his arm is moving, and then falls. In one of them I kind of see a slight push back on the hand, but it's like as soon as the hand gets slightly displaced, his knees buckle and he collapses forward. I'm reminded of a scene I'll link here below, because usually when your hand is pushed that way (and further) you fall back on your tush instead of jumping and tucking your knees in.

Overall, as I'm watching this, I can't help but think:

• Why are they pushing the arm the whole time? What if they push the body? If you're pushing into the centerline there is no rolling out of it.
• Why are they not trying to grab? All I see is pushing the arms around. I don't see any grabbing. At that note, if I'm moving the arm out of the way, there's a reason (like I'm going to strike there).

For reference, this is the scene I'm thinking of:

In particular at 0:50 when Smart punches and his friend goes the other way.

 

[zzj]

Remember, I said I do have hapkido in my background. Not a lot, mind you. But enough to notice a lot of the stuff that looks fake, but is real.

1. So I'm looking at 1:17 in slow motion. The only contact I see is forearm-to-forearm push. There appears to be a lot of room for the "bad guy's" arm to give (meaning no push), and the position of the "bad guy" appears to be one that should have a firmer base, because he is facing into it with a front stance, while the "good guy" is twisting outside his centerline.
2. The next one is at 1:26. This one I see the hand get pushed back slightly, but not enough to cause pain. Not even close in my bad wrist. It's as if as soon as there's resistance, he jumps away. In fact, I'm watching him push off with his left arm, and use the energy from his hand being pushed back, to push off and jump.
3. 1:37 the "bad guy" is trying to push him by jumping, and instead pushes himself back. That's a poor attack on his part. (Sort of like how most arts do a punch defense against a haymaker instead of against someone using a complicated boxing combination).
4. 1:40 it's hard to see this one because the hands go behind, but it looks like the same as #2. As soon as the attacker feels any resistance he jumps away.
5. 1:43 there's a couple here where I'm not really sure what's going on. The "bad guy" touches his arm while his arm is moving, and then falls. In one of them I kind of see a slight push back on the hand, but it's like as soon as the hand gets slightly displaced, his knees buckle and he collapses forward. I'm reminded of a scene I'll link here below, because usually when your hand is pushed that way (and further) you fall back on your tush instead of jumping and tucking your knees in.

Overall, as I'm watching this, I can't help but think:

• Why are they pushing the arm the whole time? What if they push the body? If you're pushing into the centerline there is no rolling out of it.
• Why are they not trying to grab? All I see is pushing the arms around. I don't see any grabbing. At that note, if I'm moving the arm out of the way, there's a reason (like I'm going to strike there).

For reference, this is the scene I'm thinking of:

In particular at 0:50 when Smart punches and his friend goes the other way.

I see this line of discussion is still not dead. I can only try to answer your points via my own experience at the hands of Mizner's contemporary.

1. I take it you mean that the 'bad guy' seems to have a better position and space for him to disengage/neutralize 'good guy's' action. What you don't see is the difference in central equilibrium, which is much more important in the context of this style; the fact that the 'bad guy' is extending and committing to pushing is already a situation of lesser central equilibrium. On the other hand, the 'good guy' may look like he is straying off his centre line when turning, but he maintains that equilibrium internally which results in his superior position; in fact if you watch his other videos, he stresses the importance of this equilibrium concept above all.

2. What is happening is almost opposite of what you are describing. The sensation I had in such a situation was the loss of all resistance instead of meeting resistance, you feel like you are grabbing onto a man-sized rubber ball; your instinctive reaction is not to let go as it feels like you might slip off if you do as the bounciness of the ball exerts a very subtle redirection of your balance. As the 'good guy' moves his arm, the 'bad guy' is 'sent outwards', coupled with a release of non-muscular force he would seem to jump back. - The small movement of the arm hides a much larger force than what is visible, so it looks like the bad guy is pushing off the arm rather than being bounced off.

3/4. is very much the same situation...

5. This is different only in that instead of bouncing away, the force is directed downwards, to lead the 'falling into emptiness'.

A lot of the reaction is due to the body's inability to react properly to dealing with a target that is practically 'empty' in terms of tactile sensation, you cannot even feel any center of mass much less push into his center-line, where any force coming from him would seem to come from nowhere and without warning.

As to the question of why there is no grabbing, its just a demonstration of principle, not a fighting technique. Pushing each other's arms is just the most direct and familiar (default) interaction in tai chi circles.

I've stressed in my other posts that I do not expect people from other MA's or even different tai chi styles to believe all this based on the video or what I say. My intention wasn't to start a discussion about the art itself, just a comment on how extreme the concept of abandoning muscular force is in this particular lineage/style/offshoot. I understand how fake it all looks and it is also true that Mizner himself has never been shown in a real fight or hard sparring context.

I am not Mizner's student but I am nominally a (newbie) student of the same lineage. As such I can personally attest to the viability of such principles under controlled/fixed situations, but I am nowhere near the skill level to try them out in free sparring.

 

[skribs]

I see this line of discussion is still not dead. I can only try to answer your points via my own experience at the hands of Mizner's contemporary.

1. I take it you mean that the 'bad guy' seems to have a better position and space for him to disengage/neutralize 'good guy's' action. What you don't see is the difference in central equilibrium, which is much more important in the context of this style; the fact that the 'bad guy' is extending and committing to pushing is already a situation of lesser central equilibrium. On the other hand, the 'good guy' may look like he is straying off his centre line when turning, but he maintains that equilibrium internally which results in his superior position; in fact if you watch his other videos, he stresses the importance of this equilibrium concept above all.

2. What is happening is almost opposite of what you are describing. The sensation I had in such a situation was the loss of all resistance instead of meeting resistance, you feel like you are grabbing onto a man-sized rubber ball; your instinctive reaction is not to let go as it feels like you might slip off if you do as the bounciness of the ball exerts a very subtle redirection of your balance. As the 'good guy' moves his arm, the 'bad guy' is 'sent outwards', coupled with a release of non-muscular force he would seem to jump back. - The small movement of the arm hides a much larger force than what is visible, so it looks like the bad guy is pushing off the arm rather than being bounced off.

3/4. is very much the same situation...

5. This is different only in that instead of bouncing away, the force is directed downwards, to lead the 'falling into emptiness'.

A lot of the reaction is due to the body's inability to react properly to dealing with a target that is practically 'empty' in terms of tactile sensation, you cannot even feel any center of mass much less push into his center-line, where any force coming from him would seem to come from nowhere and without warning.

As to the question of why there is no grabbing, its just a demonstration of principle, not a fighting technique. Pushing each other's arms is just the most direct and familiar (default) interaction in tai chi circles.

I've stressed in my other posts that I do not expect people from other MA's or even different tai chi styles to believe all this based on the video or what I say. My intention wasn't to start a discussion about the art itself, just a comment on how extreme the concept of abandoning muscular force is in this particular lineage/style/offshoot. I understand how fake it all looks and it is also true that Mizner himself has never been shown in a real fight or hard sparring context.

I am not Mizner's student but I am nominally a (newbie) student of the same lineage. As such I can personally attest to the viability of such principles under controlled/fixed situations, but I am nowhere near the skill level to try them out in free sparring.

1. I mean the "bad guy" is in a front stance with his weight on his arm. And the "good guy" has his weight centered over his feet with his arm off to the side. That means that he is using just a small motion of his arm with no additional force behind it to launch the "bad guy" backwards. The only way I know for this to work is with pain. Otherwise physics wins.

2. A lot of this sounds like the type of mumbo-jumbo they use in B movies to explain why someone has superpowers. If it was a force going into the guy, then his arm would compress, not extend. His arm extending shows it's a push-off.

5. What is directing the force downwards?

I find it very hard to believe you wouldn't feel anything. You'd feel the arm, even if it wasn't acting like you expect an arm to. But more important, you WOULD feel center of mass if you moved past the arm to the chest. The chest can't slip around so easily. Even if it did, you could roll with it for the most part. Put your leg behind theirs and if they try to roll away from your push, they fall flat on the ground.

If you're limited to pushing arms, I can't find a realistic scenario where that would apply. That's ignoring pushes to the chest, grabbing the arms, or anything to do with your legs. That's assuming these techniques work on those who are not suggested to it, even in that scenario.

So I'd argue this is not compatible with other martial arts, not because of a difference in philosophy, but because in the event it DOES work and isn't just a scripted "jump" or "fall"...it would appear to only work in a strange scenario of someone only pushing your arms.

Edit to add:

Keep in mind, I try to keep an open mind. But I really don't see anything here other than the power of suggestion.

 

[now disabled]

in Hapkido do you blend?

 

[zzj]

1. I mean the "bad guy" is in a front stance with his weight on his arm. And the "good guy" has his weight centered over his feet with his arm off to the side. That means that he is using just a small motion of his arm with no additional force behind it to launch the "bad guy" backwards. The only way I know for this to work is with pain. Otherwise physics wins.

2. A lot of this sounds like the type of mumbo-jumbo they use in B movies to explain why someone has superpowers. If it was a force going into the guy, then his arm would compress, not extend. His arm extending shows it's a push-off.

5. What is directing the force downwards?

I find it very hard to believe you wouldn't feel anything. You'd feel the arm, even if it wasn't acting like you expect an arm to. But more important, you WOULD feel center of mass if you moved past the arm to the chest. The chest can't slip around so easily. Even if it did, you could roll with it for the most part. Put your leg behind theirs and if they try to roll away from your push, they fall flat on the ground.

If you're limited to pushing arms, I can't find a realistic scenario where that would apply. That's ignoring pushes to the chest, grabbing the arms, or anything to do with your legs. That's assuming these techniques work on those who are not suggested to it, even in that scenario.

So I'd argue this is not compatible with other martial arts, not because of a difference in philosophy, but because in the event it DOES work and isn't just a scripted "jump" or "fall"...it would appear to only work in a strange scenario of someone only pushing your arms.

Edit to add:

Keep in mind, I try to keep an open mind. But I really don't see anything here other than the power of suggestion.

1. It's not pain. The visible action is minute but the 'wave' of force is larger than what the eye can see, at the same time the target is slightly off balance due to the 'ball' analogy.

2. It's literally like a wave of momentum (that's how I would describe it), you feel like you are thrown back instead of being pushed. If it were a directed muscular force then the arms would of course compress.

5. Again, a sinking momentum much in the same way as the push.

Of course I can feel the arm, but the arm feels like a part of an inflated balloon/ball. Again if you move pass the arms the body also feels similar, as if every point is equal pressure wise no matter which point you probe. There is no sense of an equal and opposite reacting line of force but that your force is dispersed and equally distributed in every part of his body. With regards to trying to put your legs behind him, it is virtually impossible (for me at least, but I suck) because the more you try to move into his space the more unbalanced you get... again the man-sized rubber ball analogy, imagine trying to move your legs behind a 6 feet diameter inflated ball.

You are not limited to pushing arms, that is just more or less our default interaction when talking about core principles. If you care enough to do so you can watch the video below for a better overview, note that the interviewer is an MA practitioner with many years of experience himself (but not in tai chi AFAIK) and Mizner demonstrates his moves on him, not his students.

EDIT: I am coming across like a Mizner groupie, unfortunately he is the most 'famous' and demonstrative representative of this style on the internet so yeah....

 

[now disabled]

@skribs

I know that looks all fake and maybe it is however

Go watch the three vids I posted on the interviews and in them you will see something like that addressed in respect of Ueshiba Morihei as he did similar things and folks say it is fake to however go watch them it may give you a perspective on same

 

[hoshin1600]

1.

EDIT: I am coming across like a Mizner groupie, unfortunately he is the most 'famous' and demonstrative representative of this style on the internet so yeah....

I'm not really part of this conversation but I have to say the subtitles are really great ..." Tai Chi is chicken but chicken is not Tai chi"

 

[Gerry Seymour]

1. It's not pain. The visible action is minute but the 'wave' of force is larger than what the eye can see, at the same time the target is slightly off balance due to the 'ball' analogy.

2. It's literally like a wave of momentum (that's how I would describe it), you feel like you are thrown back instead of being pushed. If it were a directed muscular force then the arms would of course compress.

5. Again, a sinking momentum much in the same way as the push.

Of course I can feel the arm, but the arm feels like a part of an inflated balloon/ball. Again if you move pass the arms the body also feels similar, as if every point is equal pressure wise no matter which point you probe. There is no sense of an equal and opposite reacting line of force but that your force is dispersed and equally distributed in every part of his body. With regards to trying to put your legs behind him, it is virtually impossible (for me at least, but I suck) because the more you try to move into his space the more unbalanced you get... again the man-sized rubber ball analogy, imagine trying to move your legs behind a 6 feet diameter inflated ball.

You are not limited to pushing arms, that is just more or less our default interaction when talking about core principles. If you care enough to do so you can watch the video below for a better overview, note that the interviewer is an MA practitioner with many years of experience himself (but not in tai chi AFAIK) and Mizner demonstrates his moves on him, not his students.

EDIT: I am coming across like a Mizner groupie, unfortunately he is the most 'famous' and demonstrative representative of this style on the internet so yeah....

The reactions in that video are easily understood. This leads me to believe the partner in the first video was helping, either consciously or unconsciously.

 

[now disabled]

The reactions in that video are easily understood. This leads me to believe the partner in the first video was helping, either consciously or unconsciously.

He probably was like some uke do too .............but the actual thing that was being demo is well as you say easily understood

 

[zzj]

The reactions in that video are easily understood. This leads me to believe the partner in the first video was helping, either consciously or unconsciously.

That’s pretty much a given. It’s like a universal trait of most uke’s especially if the person demonstrating is considered a respected master.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That’s pretty much a given. It’s like a universal trait of most uke’s especially if the person demonstrating is considered a respected master.

Agreed. And, unfortunately, it often hides (for those who can understand at least some of what's going on) the actual technique and efficacy thereof.

Even in class, I have to sometimes remind students about this. I'll start something, and the student falls. I'll ask, "Why did you fall?" The answer, usually: "I thought I was supposed to."

Sigh.

 

[skribs]

The reactions in that video are easily understood. This leads me to believe the partner in the first video was helping, either consciously or unconsciously.

It might be easily understood to you, but as evident by my post it's not to me. What IS going on there?

Or what would be going on if the guy wasn't jumping like a startled cat?

 

[zzj]

It might be easily understood to you, but as evident by my post it's not to me. What IS going on there?

Or what would be going on if the guy wasn't jumping like a startled cat?

You seem to have a genuine sense of curiosity about this, however I think we have derailed this thread long enough.

There is no amount of explanation that can make it seem logical if you have not felt something similar. If you want to pursue this further I would suggest you go for the workshop in Los Angeles scheduled for the end of September (next month) by Mizner’s disciple & assistant instructor Curtis Brough.
Details are on Mizner’s website, I’m not posting them here as I’m not advertising for him.

With that I think we should let this matter rest and hopefully the thread can get back on track?

 

[skribs]

You seem to have a genuine sense of curiosity about this, however I think we have derailed this thread long enough.

There is no amount of explanation that can make it seem logical if you have not felt something similar. If you want to pursue this further I would suggest you go for the workshop in Los Angeles scheduled for the end of September (next month) by Mizner’s disciple & assistant instructor Curtis Brough.
Details are on Mizner’s website, I’m not posting them here as I’m not advertising for him.

With that I think we should let this matter rest and hopefully the thread can get back on track?

I'm sorry, my curiosity doesn't extend to the 22 hour drive or the plane ticket I would need to purchase, and the work time I would need to miss in order to experience it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It might be easily understood to you, but as evident by my post it's not to me. What IS going on there?

Or what would be going on if the guy wasn't jumping like a startled cat?

What I see in the first video is not clear. The interview video - where he's using the interviewer as uke - seems much clearer. I've had a smidge of experience with some folks who were able to do similar things (one I think was actually a Taiji practitioner/instructor), and I even see some bits of it in my own work, though without the impressive rooting I see in that video.

So, with an inexperienced (at Taiji) uke, it's not that foreign in concept. There's some redirection, some impressive rooting and reflecting, and some of what I call "passing" - an aspect of blending where the force of an incoming push is allowed to pass just far enough that it can't exert any real effect before it can be altered. I can do much of what was in that interview video, though I won't look nearly as good, and will work harder for it than he appeared to. I might be doing it differently than he is, too, since I'm interpreting through my own knowledge.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You seem to have a genuine sense of curiosity about this, however I think we have derailed this thread long enough.

There is no amount of explanation that can make it seem logical if you have not felt something similar. If you want to pursue this further I would suggest you go for the workshop in Los Angeles scheduled for the end of September (next month) by Mizner’s disciple & assistant instructor Curtis Brough.
Details are on Mizner’s website, I’m not posting them here as I’m not advertising for him.

With that I think we should let this matter rest and hopefully the thread can get back on track?

This kind of interesting side-discussion happens a lot. Some of the best exchanges happen in them. Sometimes the thread returns to its prior topic, but usually the natural flow of the thread follows the interest of those involved.

 

[skribs]

This kind of interesting side-discussion happens a lot. Some of the best exchanges happen in them. Sometimes the thread returns to its prior topic, but usually the natural flow of the thread follows the interest of those involved.

Yeah, this is the first thread I've seen where the OP is taking a topic down a rabbit trail and someone else is trying to bring it back on topic!