What are these techniques really for?

[ATACX GYM]

Hello everyone.

Since when I joined MT I've been willing to talk (discuss and ask, mainly) about many things, most about some kind of deeper understanding of what is practised tkd classes in my dojang. It's been a little hard to start with a straight question, because many of my issues relate to general practice of the art, but well, I had to start somehow. So here I am, dropping things as they show up to my mind.

So I ask you: how much of traditional core taekwondo techniques are really to be used when thinking of a theoretical real fight (or to say, real and effective fight techniques)? Which techniques aren't really? I understand WTF sparring rules (under which I train) are very restrictive (what honestly irritates me) but sometimes I feel they're even closer to a real use of fight techniques than what I usually do when practicing forms and kibon dong jak (attack and defense with upper limbs).

For example: I like practicing the stances, but most of them seem to have very little utility when thinking about real fighting. They seem lacking fluidity, most of them have feet plain on the ground (instead of putting the weight on the ball of feet, what I have already read and been advised to do by some black belts in my dojang), etc. Note that I'm quite a beginner in the art, and I understand that maybe I just don't get the real fighting content in this. In other hand, I believe I've seen consistent criticism about those techniques. There's even in my dojang what we call "gyeorugi jumbi" (I don't know if it's a standard name), which is "fighting stance". It makes me think: "if there's a 'fighting stance', what are the other stances for?".
I don't mean, however, I can't imagine those techniques to be ever used in a fight. But it seems to me to have very little use. I would like to deepen this a little more saying that I usually see full contact sparring videos, and I never see some techniques being used, although they're not even exclusive of taekwondo, but shared by many other martial arts.

So:
1) maybe those techniques don't really fit a real fight, or
2) those techniques are only used to provide correct postures or general body movement control, or
3) they don't really work, and are there just because it's the heart of the martial art, a tradition aspect, or
4) they do work, but are just not very often used today, because they're not in fashion or are not viable for competition sparring for some reason, or
5) they work great, but today no-one normally uses for any other reason (for example, a powerful are maki/montong maki could, say, break someone's striking limb).
6, 7) ...

I believe the main techniques I'm questioning are stances and... blocking. I've read something like "a powerful block is a kind of attack", but honestly I don't see myself being fast enough to block a punch to the face (with a, say, olgul maki) and in the following not being hit by the following punch, with the other hand of my opponent (imagine those turrent of punches we see around). By the way, I never saw anyone block in any kind of taekwondo sparring!

I've already seen some karate sparring (not full contact) where the fighters only use "traditional" stances (even horse stance!). It's beautiful and even seems effective, but I can't assure.

Assuming some techniques aren't for real fighting, <<<why>>> do we really train them?

I love taekwondo, but honestly, I like the idea of thinking in the dojang I'm to some extend learning something fighting in the traditional training parts (kibon dong jak, poomsae), even if in a controlled ambient (single opponent, no weapons, etc). Notice I'm not strictly talking self-defense. I understand the differences and, by the way, even if self-defense means no-rules and uncontrolled ambient, I don't think we always need to be killing machines to be able to fight, for example, against some untrained person. Maybe the best ambient to what I'm talking about is nowadays MMA competitive sparring.

My main concern is I practice a lot of kibon dong jak and forms in the dojang, and it'd be very sad I find out that it has nothing to do with fighting.
This has also something to do with other post I'm bringing within a few minutes (I'm gonna start writing right after this).
By the way, I have to appologize I just haven't searched the forum before about this, but I believe it's so good to discuss here, and I'd enjoy so much having your opinions.

Regards,
Sérgio

P.S.: I'm so glad it's weekend!!!

As a 5th dan in tkd,I can energetically say the same thing I've been saying when remonstrating with my kenpo brethren (I hold a 5th in kenpo too) and that is: it's all about functional training. Just this morning literally not 2 hours ago I was working out and teaching at the park and this question was put to me:"What's the use of the stances and the blocks?" I pointed out that there isn't a stance tech or block that doesn't have direct combat application,you just have to be blessed with a knowledgeable enough instructor to demonstrate the difference.

Power blocks aren't meant to be used for fast attacks,like jabs.But I've used the "X" block in a fight before,both as a deflection of an attack and as a choke escape.I've used the X-Block to escape the MT Clinch before.It was pretty funny,too. (I'm a MT coach too).The ancient Korean teaching methods aren't reflective of modern day functional training,but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Not only must you recognize that there is yoga deeply embedded into almost every form and stance and movement of old skool Asian martial arts which all of us can benefit from to this very day,recognize that when you functionalize all of your defenses attacks and counters for modern day fighting reality? All you've done is simply change the delivery of your techs,NOT their viability. It's your fighting platform,delivery and entrances which will change. I remember when I recently popped and dropped a 230 pound MT guy with thee ole knife hand to the neck. I did it again to his tricep,the inside of his knee as he raised his leg to fend off what he thought would be a kick,and twice to the temples of other guys. Then...to make my point...not only did I revert to kicking combinations and only kicks while sparring vs MT kicks in the gym,when we practiced clinch work? I combined my blocks with my basic stances...exactly as I was shown 33 years ago as a white belt...and proceeded to drop and mop the floor with these guys.A few times I got slung around too,but my point was made: these techs work.

Like the saying in my sig goes: "IT'S NOT JUST WHAT YOU KNOW,IT'S HOW YOU TRAIN..."

 

[Cyriacus]

Why? Is it such a bad thing to take up martial arts strictly for fitness and health instead of jogging, which I dislike, but view it as a necessary evil in my training.

If you dislike something you are not going to be motivated to doing simply because you know it is good for you. This is why you don't see everybody jogging or swimming or walking for that manner.

You misunderstand my intention behind that statement.

If you Learn a MA, you are learning Methodologies to Inflict Harm. And you get nice and Fit along the way. Im just saying that if Fitness is what you want, perhaps more so than the Inflicting Harm, there are other ways of doing that. Like Gym. Running is just the example I shot up there.

When I think "I wanna get fit", my Options dont start with "Fighting Forms".
Is all im saying.

 

[miguksaram]

You misunderstand my intention behind that statement.

If you Learn a MA, you are learning Methodologies to Inflict Harm. And you get nice and Fit along the way. Im just saying that if Fitness is what you want, perhaps more so than the Inflicting Harm, there are other ways of doing that. Like Gym. Running is just the example I shot up there.

When I think "I wanna get fit", my Options dont start with "Fighting Forms".
Is all im saying.

Thank you for clearing that up. From my experience those who have joined martial arts with the sole purpose of getting fit, have done it for one or two reasons, the first being that they just want to do something different than an aerobic class or jogging. The second is they have physical limitations that prohibits them from weight lifting or other types of activities.

 

[Cyriacus]

Thank you for clearing that up. From my experience those who have joined martial arts with the sole purpose of getting fit, have done it for one or two reasons, the first being that they just want to do something different than an aerobic class or jogging. The second is they have physical limitations that prohibits them from weight lifting or other types of activities.

Wasnt there a Kid with No Legs doing Karate?

 

[miguksaram]

Yes...which is why he never became a long distance runner and took up martial arts instead.

 

[Cyriacus]

Yes...which is why he never became a long distance runner and took up martial arts instead.

You make a good Counterpoint - Well Played