What an interesting day....

[arnisador]

Well for one thing unlike Commodus who inherited his office, Obama was elected by the people.

Yup, a popular and electoral majority. That's democracy in action.

 

[shesulsa]

Yup, a popular and electoral majority. That's democracy in action.

Sshhh!!! They'll hear you making sense. Must not make sense. SSHHH!!! :lol2:

 

[Tez3]

Stepping slightly away from topic for a second just to share a whole-hearted agreement on that very important sentiment.

Oh yes! We seem to be turning into celebrity worshipping societies, anyone who is even slightly famous for nothing seems to be worshipped now. When someone can become famous and 'worshipped' for just going out with a 'celebrity' its probably no wonder that Obama is seen as the new sun king.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Oh yes! We seem to be turning into celebrity worshipping societies, anyone who is even slightly famous for nothing seems to be worshipped now. When someone can become famous and 'worshipped' for just going out with a 'celebrity' its probably no wonder that Obama is seen as the new sun king.

That hardly explains the Obama phenomenon.....lots of famous folks.....but your politics have to be right (left) to revered as the 2nd COMING!

 

[sgtmac_46]

Yup, a popular and electoral majority. That's democracy in action.

He won an election.....as Presidents have before.....yet, we usually wait until AFTER they've done something of significance before putting their face on Mount Rushmore.

Historically great Presidents, including Ronald Reagan, required several years of hindsight AFTER leaving office to be declared great.

It doesn't actually bother me, though......the shameless attempt to FABRICATE a great president is going to be backfire.......the fall is going to be that much greater when he turns out to be Jimmy Carter's second term.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Depends on whos writing the history, Richard the Third is forever thought of as a wicked hunchback king thanks to Elizabethans writing the history after the Tudors stole the throne. He was neither hunchbacked or wicked, in fact he was one of the best kings we had, Richard the Lionheart is thought of as a great English king when he was actually a gay Frenchman who bled England dry with taxes and spent barely any time in the country. King John his brother is thought of as wicked too but was a better king.
I wonder though if Bush will actually be judged on his term in office or whether he will be remembered for his Bushisms which seem to be everywhere over the past few days!

I suspect history will judge George W. Bush much more kindly than many think (or would like). Distance of time tends to eliminate the trivialities (such as the Bushisms) that seem of such great importance.

Not that it ultimately matters to me, his legacy is his problem........my comment about OBAMA is that, try as folks might, they CANNOT 'Micro-Manage' how history is going to judge them.......though Obama and his people think so. He's in for MANY, MANY surprises.

 

[sgtmac_46]

I wonder if that counts for "Dittoheads" as well ....

You wonder if what counts for 'Dittoheads'?

 

[sgtmac_46]

Sshhh!!! They'll hear you making sense. Must not make sense. SSHHH!!! :lol2:

What makes sense is to wait until AFTER someone is successful as President before declaring them the greatest president that ever lived.....

Lot of folks are getting the CART before the horse.....and it's going to be embarrassing for a great many of them.

What we have in the current situation is a shameless cult of personality......and it's dangerous to shamelessly worship powerful political figures......that's not really American.

What IS American is for a president to be DESPISED by a significant minority of the population.....it keeps our system HONEST! I keep hearing Obama referred to as a 'Unifier'......but he hasn't really unified anything, unless they're referring to the Democratic Party, and not the country as a whole.

 

[shesulsa]

Okay, we all get that Bush fans are cool enough to have been this happy that their leader got elected and talk about all the great things he was going to do but Obama fans aren't. Belly stars and all that stuff. We get it.

Don't anyone be inspired now. That's a bad thing. Don't anyone start complimenting the man on his ability to inspire because that's a bad thing. Don't overestimate him before he's even started his job because that's something only the cool people do. :barf:

*On to the discussion*

I think it was a good move, popularity-wise, for Obama to warn that this will be a long process. It will ensure high approval numbers for a long time even if he doesn't do anything too constructive. There are a lot of blind followers - ON BOTH SIDES - and I'm curious how long it will take before they wake up. For the Obamayans (my word ) it might be a rude awakening, but only if he's as middle-of-the-road in some ways as he campaigned to be.

We'll see.

 

[arnisador]

He won an election.....as Presidents have before.....yet, we usually wait until AFTER they've done something of significance before putting their face on Mount Rushmore.

Historically great Presidents, including Ronald Reagan, required several years of hindsight AFTER leaving office to be declared great.

The media has certainly been biased in his favour, and that could be a help or a hindrance now that the heavy lifting has to be done.

I suspect history will judge George W. Bush much more kindly than many think (or would like). Distance of time tends to eliminate the trivialities (such as the Bushisms) that seem of such great importance.

It will also downplay things like the relationship between him and his VP that attracted so much attention. But I'm less sure he'll be remembered well. Iraq is a quagmire and everyone now admits it was based on faulty intelligence. That might or might not be his fault but he'll get rapped with it either way. (I do think it's fair to place some of the blame on him for this.) But definitely one must wait for the judgment of history--how much did the two wars improve our security/the world? What role did he play in the economic meltdown? And so on. I'm not so optimistic for him.

 

[CoryKS]

I would prefer people to have a healthy contempt and suspicion for their politicians. Not the blind, rabid hatred shown to Bush and certainly not the glazzy-eyed adulation shown to incoming "President Jesus".

I haven't been this creeped out since people started wearing those yellow Lance Armstrong wristbands. Buncha Moonies.

 

[Tez3]

Do you think that people are looking for 'heroes'? These days while there are plenty of real life heroes around they aren't the 'great' leaders or charismatic people who inspire people anymore. The world has moved on so fast and has become disjointed, people are looking for leadership and to be inspired, the media to a great extent has played on this, knowingly or not.
Like martial arts when people expect instant results, a BB in a year, no hard work required many people are looking for a quick fix to return the world that was always fictional, 'the good old days'. No leader however good is going to be able to deliver this. I think it's why so many take up with weird cults and sects, they want answers but want them spoonfed not have to work for them which many of the 'old' religions require.

The political parties talk up their candidates as the next great thing, the ones who'll solve all their problems, most of us are sceptical but there is a need in people these days for someone they can follow, someone who can inspire them. it's a yearning that may not be fulfilled but it's there.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Okay, we all get that Bush fans are cool enough to have been this happy that their leader got elected and talk about all the great things he was going to do but Obama fans aren't. Belly stars and all that stuff. We get it.

Well when he does something other than get elected to public office, let me know.

So far Obama, in his ENTIRE LIFE, has only demonstrated that he's good at campaigning and shameless self-promotion.........now it's put up or shut up time.....balls in his court.....the 'inspiring the crowd' thing isn't going to cut it now that he's been sworn in.......so, by all means, show us what he's got!

Don't anyone be inspired now. That's a bad thing. Don't anyone start complimenting the man on his ability to inspire because that's a bad thing. Don't overestimate him before he's even started his job because that's something only the cool people do. :barf:

*On to the discussion*

Well, unlike some folks looking for a savior, I don't need Obama to inspire me......I'd have voted for Bob Barr if I had thought he had a chance of winning......Governed LEAST is Governed BEST.......especially since the current financial crisis was CREATED by the government you government that says it's now going to solve it.

As for 'underestimating' Obama, i'll estimate him in proportion to his PAST ACCOMPLISHMENTS! Perhaps YOU should stop looking at him based solely on his own hype machine.

I think it was a good move, popularity-wise, for Obama to warn that this will be a long process. It will ensure high approval numbers for a long time even if he doesn't do anything too constructive. There are a lot of blind followers - ON BOTH SIDES - and I'm curious how long it will take before they wake up. For the Obamayans (my word ) it might be a rude awakening, but only if he's as middle-of-the-road in some ways as he campaigned to be.

We'll see.

I don't know if it's a good move, but he can't avoid it after his campaign of RAINBOWS and MESSIANIC declarations....NOW he HAS to say 'Well.....uhm......we.....uhm.....really can't do all that as....quickly......as.....uhm.....you know......it's tough......it's......uhm.......yeah, I know I promised pie in the sky fixes,......but, uhm.......it's gonna take a while'.

It remains to be seen how long the American people are going to be suckered by that bait and switch, but it might by him a couple years.

 

[sgtmac_46]

I would prefer people to have a healthy contempt and suspicion for their politicians. Not the blind, rabid hatred shown to Bush and certainly not the glazzy-eyed adulation shown to incoming "President Jesus".

I haven't been this creeped out since people started wearing those yellow Lance Armstrong wristbands. Buncha Moonies.

If you're recall, the media had much contempt for Ronald Reagan.....I remember at his summit with Gorbachev, the media declared that REAGAN WAS GOING TO DESTROY THE WORLD, when he walked away from the arms control treaty talks.......but it was GORBACHEV that caved and bent to Reagan's will.

Reagan DESERVES to be idolized......AFTER THE FACT, years now removed......he 'EARNED' it, it wasn't handed to him on day one, or MANUFACTURED/FABRICATED by a fawning media.....hell, it was done IN SPITE of a generally negative media and opposition from a Democrat controlled congress.

The left and it's media now want to 'Fabricate' their own Ronald Reagan......but it doesn't work like that.....you actually have to START with a man of character and vision, not an empty suit with delusions of grandeur and the admittedly awesome ability of shameless self-promotion.

 

[sgtmac_46]

The political parties talk up their candidates as the next great thing, the ones who'll solve all their problems, most of us are sceptical but there is a need in people these days for someone they can follow, someone who can inspire them. it's a yearning that may not be fulfilled but it's there.

There are those who are different......lately the reason why BOTH of our parties sound like the same, is that they are both ACTING like it.....the differences between McCain and Obama are pretty darn negligible when you get right down to it.....they both think growing the government and spending money are the cures to America's problems.

I'll be 'inspired' by the Politician who comes forward arguing that smaller government is what made America great....one who ADMITS that government is not the cure to all our ills, that it is the Entrepreneurial American Spirit that made America great.....that it is US, not the GOVERNMENT that is the cure to America's problems.

What I hear from Obama is that HE cares, and HE is going to help us.....well I quite frankly don't WANT him helping the HELL out of America.

Honestly, you can't listen to Obama very long before his own shameless self-promotion comes through, and his VIEW of himself as our political savior........and quite frankly that is NOT what we need.

 

[Sukerkin]

Reagan DESERVES to be idolized......AFTER THE FACT, years now removed......he 'EARNED' it, it wasn't handed to him on day one

Whilst Ronnie Raygun was far from the buffoon he was often portrayed as (I've seen some quite insightful political seminars of his), he, like any President (or indeed any leader) is there as the accountable head of the machine of government. They take the credit for other peoples labours and accidents of timing/fortune and also need to take the blame when the machine fails in it's intent.

To idolise any such leader is a dangerous thing to my mind, it being all too easy to slip into the dogmatic trap of obeisance to 'the Leader', whether past or, even more worryingly, present.

Even the much feted Winston Churchill doesn't get elevated to such status and quite rightly so.

Men in positions of apparent power all too often are not the masters of their own destiny but are more akin to jugglers of counterveiling interest groups - that needs to be borne in mind by us all when we villify or venerate politicians.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Whilst Ronnie Raygun was far from the buffoon he was often portrayed as (I've seen some quite insightful political seminars of his), he, like any President (or indeed any leader) is there as the accountable head of the machine of government. They take the credit for other peoples labours and accidents of timing/fortune and also need to take the blame when the machine fails in it's intent.

To idolise any such leader is a dangerous thing to my mind, it being all too easy to slip into the dogmatic trap of obeisance to 'the Leader', whether past or, even more worryingly, present.

Even the much feted Winston Churchill doesn't get elevated to such status and quite rightly so.

Men in positions of apparent power all too often are not the masters of their own destiny but are more akin to jugglers of counterveiling interest groups - that needs to be borne in mind by us all when we villify or venerate politicians.

As I said, leaders deserve to be idolized IN HINDSIGHT only....usually after they are dead and gone.....never while they hold the rings of power if we wish to remain a free people.

And MOST certainly, never as mere fabrication constructed by a machine FOR WORSHIP!

 

[sgtmac_46]

Am I the only who finds this a little nutty? Yeah, he says 'Patriotism'....but this is about Obama worship. http://video.msn.com/?mkt=en-us&vid=98d1744c-be9d-4db3-b26a-ca8f421cb600&playlist=videoByTag:tag:most%20watched%20celebrity:ns:MSNVideo_Top_Cat:mk:us:sf:ActiveStartDate:sd:-1:vs:0&from=MSNvideo&tab=m1217265217856&gt1=42003


Because, yeah......we NEED Obama to make us do these things.....


What's the KEY this is about Obama.....uhm,.....HOW ABOUT THE FACT THAT IT STARTED WITH THAT GIGANTIC ICONIC OBAMA PROFILE PORTRAIT AND SOME INSCRIPTION ABOUT BEING PRESIDENT BEING A LONELY JOB! And a 'PLEDGE TO OBAMA'!

'I pledge to be a servant to our President.....' No joke, that's what these morons said! 'I pledge to be a servant to our President....'

This inane! Our new President is a jack ***......i'll say that while i'm still free to.....I might not be much longer.

I PLEDGE TO OPPOSE OBAMA'S SOCIALIST POLICIES AND MEGALOMANIAC SELF-VISION WITH THE ENTIRETY OF MY BEING AS EVERY RATIONAL AMERICAN SHOULD! THAT IS MY PLEDGE!

He shall no more be referred to simply as Obama by me.....he is now Papa Doc Barrack after his ideological forebearer, Papa Doc Duvalier, the DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED, POPULIST PRESIDENT OF HAITI!!!!

ALL HAIL THE SUPREME LEADER!

 

[Sukerkin]

Okay, I know that I'm English and therefore find aspects of the 'public' behaviours of celebrity American's somewhat cringe-making but that was just ... unsettling? Is that the word I mean? It'll do for now.

There was nothing wrong with the sentiments expressed, a persons feelings and beliefs are their own after all. Indeed, many of the statements were postive and uplifting but so many stitched togther for over four minutes with continuous interjections of "I pledge ..." was disturbing.

The person who decided on that ending to the footage was perhaps sending a message of their own too. I can't be the only person who was hearing a subtext of:

"We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to serve us".

 

[sgtmac_46]

Okay, I know that I'm English and therefore find aspects of the 'public' behaviours of celebrity American's somewhat cringe-making but that was just ... unsettling? Is that the word I mean? It'll do for now.

There was nothing wrong with the sentiments expressed, a persons feelings and beliefs are their own after all. Indeed, many of the statements were postive and uplifting but so many stitched togther for over four minutes with continuous interjections of "I pledge ..." was disturbing.

The person who decided on that ending to the footage was perhaps sending a message of their own too. I can't be the only person who was hearing a subtext of:

"We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to serve us".

'YOU WILL BE ASSIMILATED!'

NOPE, you were not the only one thinking that!

But, then, aren't the Borg really just an intentional or unintentional allegory for communism?


On that pan back, I was ACTUALLY thinking it was going to pan back toward everyone coming together in to a HUGE view of America (that would make sense, right?)......but then it came back toward a HUGE VIEW OF OBAMA!!!!!

THAT WAS TRULY FRIGHTENING!