Western Boxing

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
Guys, if you feel the need to exchange insults, please take it to email or PM. If you can't prove your point without resorting to insults and namecalling, then perhaps your point can't be proven.
Thank you.

No worries dude. This guy is talking out of his @ss anyway. I concluded that in my last post and said I was through discussing anything with him because he's so delusional. Not only is he wrong, everyone but him knows it. His cheap shots are kinda funny though because he has no clue what kind of training I have. But I have better things to do than sort it out with some @ss clown like him. I'd beat him hands down with a hangover. I know it. He knows it, and everyone else here knows it. Heck, I'd probably shove his wallet in his @ss after I cleaned it out (I don't fight for free ya know) when I was done for sh*ts and giggles. Then he can run back to his little "Sensei" and have him pull it out so he can fork over some more money to find out why his TKD didn't save him.

End...of...story.

 

[sweeper]

Originally posted by GouRonin



That isn't what causes a knock out. The jaw hinge is hammered back to where it is hinged and that point is at the base of the skull. The concussive shockwave is the result that causes a KO.

Picture this. Put your elbow against your friend. Make a fist then hit the end of the fist. The energy travels to the person you have your elbow against.

true, but that mouth guard wouldn't stop that from happening, it would still be transfered (with the exception of that small amount that would be absorbed by the material of the guard) also, if that were to be all there was to it any shot to the head would have a simular effect because you would be transfering force to the skull wich displaces it wich causes your brain to rock and gives a minor concusion causing it to re-boot. The jw is a more effective target because it acts as a folcrum(sp), it forces your head to twist in such a way that your brain more easily rocks. and in that case a mouth guard won't do jack (excet keep your teath from going through your toung or from them chipping). But I was mostly responding to their animation.

kenethku, I assume you practice the martial arts you mention, I would point out that in jkd there is alot more than the lead shin kick because that lead shin kick doesn't always work, it won't always break the shin and it won't always hit. My point is just because you are good with kicks doesn't mean you arne't going to box. This is the same argument I see TKD exponants claiming on RMA, that no one will ever get past their kicks, the counter argument is always "why havn't there ever been any UFC champs that one strictly by kicks". in fact, I would point you in the direction of san shou and most NHB ring fights where direct kicks (like thrusts stomps and side kicks) are legaly targeted to the knees.. knees don't break very easily, it all depends on their physical orientation, if your leg is straight than yes it is easy to hyper extend the knee joint, but if it is bent it is much much stronger (remember that vid clip that was going around of that mauy thai fight where one guy broke his shin on the other guys knee?) and every boxer I have seen as well as every martial artist does bend their knees, also I don't think your comparison is fare. You are comparing an average boxer to very selective styles of martial art, giving examples of people who train very hard within these selective styles and than saying that others who do not match this training are not true martial artists, I don't think you are on the same page as most people, that is to say most people would consider amuch broader group to be martial artists wich would change the whole average boxer vs average martial artist thing. If you make the statement that not all people who take lessons in a martial art are martial artists, than it is only fare to assume not all people who go to a boxing gym are boxers, with that statement I can put all kinds of qualifiers on who is and who isn't a boxer and change the situation to favor the boxers, however that isn't truely a fare argument. Let me re fraise the question. "an average student of boxing could defeat an average student of an other martial art" (no this isn't nessisaraly my perosna position it is simply easyer to argue from) we can not deny someone as a boxer now because they do study it, just as a D grade student at a college s still a student so is a D grade boxer, the same applies to the martial artist, a D grade student of karate is still a student of karate. Now with this situation I would favor the boxer if the statement was only made to include the US and canada (I know much less about other nations martial artists) simply because In my opinion your average student of boxing is better trained for any fighting situation than your average student of martial art because now students include all those soccer moms and their kids and anyone else who steps through the door of any crackpots school, I think this is how most people view the statement, the qualifiers you put on the statement made it "an average boxer could defeat an average fighter from JKD who trains as hard as the given boxer" I would disagree with the previous claim also (I know you only use JKD as an example but for pratical purposes I think the statment illustrates my point). It's all a matter of perspective and wording..

 

[J-kid]

Boxing is a great striking art with the hands, Yet vs a grappler they are takin out, The averge grapple would destroy a boxer since boxers get close. the Judo/Jijutsu guys would move right in for the take down, This is one reason in ufc fights no boxer is the champ. Its mostly because when boxers get close , Grapplers get to close and do a take down taking the boxers ablity away, All depends on the fighters them selfs. This is one of those of those what ifs. All depends on the person the training, Your friend JUDO-KID

 

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by sweeper
true, but that mouth guard wouldn't stop that from happening, it would still be transfered (with the exception of that small amount that would be absorbed by the material of the guard) also, if that were to be all there was to it any shot to the head would have a simular effect because you would be transfering force to the skull wich displaces it wich causes your brain to rock and gives a minor concusion causing it to re-boot. The jw is a more effective target because it acts as a folcrum(sp), it forces your head to twist in such a way that your brain more easily rocks. and in that case a mouth guard won't do jack (excet keep your teath from going through your toung or from them chipping).

No mouth guard will stop that totally but the wipss one will more than any since it is a top and bottom one that locks the jaw. The single mouthpiece is really a piece of crap and only protects the teeth. It still allows for jaw movement. For more info go to www.wipss.com

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by Judo-kid

Boxing is a great striking art with the hands, Yet vs a grappler they are takin out, The averge grapple would destroy a boxer since boxers get close. the Judo/Jijutsu guys would move right in for the take down, This is one reason in ufc fights no boxer is the champ. Its mostly because when boxers get close , Grapplers get to close and do a take down taking the boxers ablity away, All depends on the fighters them selfs. This is one of those of those what ifs. All depends on the person the training, Your friend JUDO-KID

And why is that? B/c boxers leave their lower body wide open!

 

[KennethKu]

.

 

[tmanifold]

Originally posted by MartialArtist


Judging from where you're from, I doubt you have seen any art other than boxing or wrestling in its true form, because you are probably used to McDojo practitioners or people who think they're all at it.

If it was true, how did Cheung beat a prized boxer?

What is wrong with Canada? We have some top level martial artist up here.

Mike Macdonald K-1 USA winner, Vancouver BC
Stan peterec 2 time world Kickboxing champion victoria BC
Tony blauer
Vlad Vasilev
Just to name a few off the top of my head

We have so many japanese and Chinese immigrants in Canada that I doubt we could get away with NOT seeing arts in true form. Hell, My Judo club has an eighth Dan from the Kodokan, you don't see those every day.

Don't mistake Canada for a backward hickville. We have every bit as diverse as the US but maybe with half the volume.

Tony

 

[KennethKu]

Really?

We thought you canucks live in igloo and drive dog sledge to work

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by sweeper

kenethku, I assume you practice the martial arts you mention, I would point out that in jkd there is alot more than the lead shin kick because that lead shin kick doesn't always work, it won't always break the shin and it won't always hit. My point is just because you are good with kicks doesn't mean you arne't going to box. ...............

..... knees don't break very easily, it all depends on their physical orientation, if your leg is straight than yes it is easy to hyper extend the knee joint, but if it is bent it is much much stronger
...... .

.... You are comparing an average boxer to very selective styles of martial art, giving examples of people who train very hard within these selective styles and than saying that others who do not match this training are not true martial artists, I don't think you are on the same page as most people, that is to say most people would consider amuch broader group to be martial artists wich would change the whole average boxer vs average martial artist thing. ....

......If you make the statement that not all people who take lessons in a martial art are martial artists, than it is only fare to assume not all people who go to a boxing gym are boxers, with that statement I can put all kinds of qualifiers on who is and who isn't a boxer and change the situation to favor the boxers, however that isn't truely a fare argument.

...... simply because In my opinion your average student of boxing is better trained for any fighting situation than your average student of martial art because now students include all those soccer moms and their kids and anyone else who steps through the door of any crackpots school, I think this is how most people view the statement, the qualifiers you put on the statement made it "an average boxer could defeat an average fighter from JKD who trains as hard as the given boxer" I would disagree with the previous claim also (I know you only use JKD as an example but for pratical purposes I think the statment illustrates my point). It's all a matter of perspective and wording..

1. Low lead side kick to the shin or knee is used like a jab in JKD. But It is delivered wth explosive blast. Since you are in JKD. You know this.

I only use the side kick to shin/knee as an example. There are many more variations , but the principle is the same.

You are in JKD. I fail to see how you don't get rotten spoiled when coming up to a boxer. It is like a dream match , fixed by Don King in advance. (Think about it, lead side kick propelled by forward blast as the boxer moves in. Oh add a feint, pretend to box the boxer by assuming your south paw on guard stance. Bruce Lee would be proud of you LOL. )

Ok, the only thing I can think of is, if you are trying to box a boxer with the WinChun part of JKD. Then you are violating the rules of JKD. "Be water, my friend" lol

2. There are more than one way to attack the knee and shin bone. Plus, JKD footwork will draw you to attack for the side plane too. Even if it does not break, he would be limping along.

3. The debate was not started on average vs average. They switched the focus after they realized their previous statement has no legs to stand on ( and then went on personal attack)

They claimed that most boxers will kill most MArtists. That is a reflection of 1 ignorance, 2 self defficiency, especially if you got carried away in some art that mesmerizes "natural body movement" (dancing comes to mind lol) to the neglect of conditioning. Then you pee your pants when you see a boxer who conditions himself daily.

4. There is no point in arguing about what kind of boxer vs soccer moms. Why bother? We all know the answer.

5. I didn't put the qualifier there. The qualifier is inherently there in the begining when they made those statements "most boxers will kill most MArtists". I was just making the obvious correction that "MOST MArtists" are not just your soccer moms and teen BB. There are a whole group of true MArtists who would have a field day going up against your trained boxers.

If you are a competent MArtists and you don't know how to defeat a boxer, then back to school (new school) and the heavy bag! lol

Look, if you insist on calling soccermoms your MArtists and then claim that the boxers can beat soccermom the MArtist, then you are just saying something we already know all along.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by KennethKu

Well, you need to define "used correctly". B/c "in theory" and "ideally", "used correctly" everything works. That may be little more than philosophical value. That is NOT TAKING into consideration of real practical use.

Ok, now what is the first line of attack in JKD? Low side kick to the shin or the knee. Every time the boxer attacks, he makes his lower body within range of a kick before he is in range to throw a punch. (Proper side kick involves you leaning away from the target, rendering your upper body out of the opponent's range. ) That is a built in disadvantage for the boxer.

Footwork alone is not enough to compensate that as the competent MA has his/her own footwork to counter and manage the strike range too.

Bruce Lee knew groundfighting and locks, but he never had to depend on those skills because he was a great striker.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Baoquan



Ok...Ex-World Champion boxer Lester Ellis retired from boxing, then four years later tried his hand at kickboxing...but was the kind of fighter that threw his requisite number of kicks and then did mostly handwork.

He fought 3 times, knocking the first two out, then fighting current World Champ Steve Douett (giving up 14 years to him!!), losing to a split points decision, that many in the crowd deserved to go to Ellis (i was not one of them....i think Douett deserved the win).

Steve Douett is a prized thai style MT fighter, who couldn't lay any real power on Ellis for the entire fight...

So...is a world champion considered a good enough opponent for a trad boxer to tackle??

This is AGAIN, not to say western boxing is superior to MT, but that a competent western boxer can compete with and defeat
competant MT fighters.

Cheers

Baoquan.

That is right, boxers can defeat Eastern style martial artists, and Eastern martial artists can defeat boxers.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by GouRonin



That isn't what causes a knock out. The jaw hinge is hammered back to where it is hinged and that point is at the base of the skull. The concussive shockwave is the result that causes a KO.

Picture this. Put your elbow against your friend. Make a fist then hit the end of the fist. The energy travels to the person you have your elbow against.

In boxing, the chin or the jaw is one of the best places to hit for a KO. In JKD, there are numerous diagrams of Bruce Lee hitting people's jaws as in reality, jaws are fragile and if you break it, they really wouldn't continue the fight.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by GouRonin



No worries dude. This guy is talking out of his @ss anyway. I concluded that in my last post and said I was through discussing anything with him because he's so delusional. Not only is he wrong, everyone but him knows it. His cheap shots are kinda funny though because he has no clue what kind of training I have. But I have better things to do than sort it out with some @ss clown like him. I'd beat him hands down with a hangover. I know it. He knows it, and everyone else here knows it. Heck, I'd probably shove his wallet in his @ss after I cleaned it out (I don't fight for free ya know) when I was done for sh*ts and giggles. Then he can run back to his little "Sensei" and have him pull it out so he can fork over some more money to find out why his TKD didn't save him.

End...of...story.

Ah, McDojo's. But never underestimate an art if all you have seen is the McDojo styles because where you're from, you don't have a lot of military versions of anything.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Judo-kid

Boxing is a great striking art with the hands, Yet vs a grappler they are takin out, The averge grapple would destroy a boxer since boxers get close. the Judo/Jijutsu guys would move right in for the take down, This is one reason in ufc fights no boxer is the champ. Its mostly because when boxers get close , Grapplers get to close and do a take down taking the boxers ablity away, All depends on the fighters them selfs. This is one of those of those what ifs. All depends on the person the training, Your friend JUDO-KID

Are you judging fighting and how real fighting works by watching the UFC? UFC has rules, the ring is relatively soft, there are ropes. Strikers are limited, they wear gloves, etc. Real fighting is not the UFC. The greatest UFC fighters are not the greatest fighters. The UFC fighters are great street fighters, but they would use very different tactics, as the opponent(s) can use anything they want, and aren't limited to where they can hit and what techniques they can use.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by KennethKu



And why is that? B/c boxers leave their lower body wide open!

Sport style, yes. Not true on all-out versions.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by tmanifold



What is wrong with Canada? We have some top level martial artist up here.

Mike Macdonald K-1 USA winner, Vancouver BC
Stan peterec 2 time world Kickboxing champion victoria BC
Tony blauer
Vlad Vasilev
Just to name a few off the top of my head

We have so many japanese and Chinese immigrants in Canada that I doubt we could get away with NOT seeing arts in true form. Hell, My Judo club has an eighth Dan from the Kodokan, you don't see those every day.

Don't mistake Canada for a backward hickville. We have every bit as diverse as the US but maybe with half the volume.

Tony

Canada is as good as the US if not better.

However, even if you see how they train here, go to where the art originated from and you will see how much harder they train.

 

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by MartialArtist
In boxing, the chin or the jaw is one of the best places to hit for a KO. In JKD, there are numerous diagrams of Bruce Lee hitting people's jaws as in reality, jaws are fragile and if you break it, they really wouldn't continue the fight.

Tell me about it. I'm recovering from a dislocated jaw at the moment. Funny thing is I didn't know it had happened until I took my mouthpiece out. I easily finished the round.

 

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by MartialArtist
Ah, McDojo's. But never underestimate an art if all you have seen is the McDojo styles because where you're from, you don't have a lot of military versions of anything.

I'm not sure if you mean me. I'm training under Vlad Vasiliev. I see plenty of military stuff through him.

But I understand what you mean about McDojo's.

 

[tmanifold]

This thread has been full of misconceptions from the begining. As an example the thought that Canada doesn't have many military style martial arts. This is patently untrue. Systema, Defendo, and Combat Sambo are just some of the styles represented in Canada of a military bent.

Also most boxers are tougher than most martail artist, because of the training and most of the reasons mentioned above. This has nothing to do with technique or even skill. This has to do with being hit very hard on a regular basis. Most boxer fight, most martial artist don't unless you count the game of tag called point sparring. Yes a martial artist does have techniques available to him that would wreck havoc on a boxer if he was able to use them. However, since most martial artist don't train full contact , most are not used to being punched. This leads to disarray once they are hit.

Now, let me clarify things, as well as a former boxer, kickboxer and shootfighter, I am a martial artist. I have study at least two styles of karate, as well as judo, aikido and various other self defence oriented styles of combat. I agree with KennethKu on his strategy and believe some one who has trained full contact would be able to take advantage of a boxers obvious technical gaps. This post is remenicent of the old black belt articles, Muay thai vs. Aikido. They were useless articles and this is a useless debate. Except in this, learning the diffences allows you to shore up the weak spots in your training. No more no less.

Tony

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by tmanifold

This thread has been full of misconceptions from the begining. As an example the thought that Canada doesn't have many military style martial arts. This is patently untrue. Systema, Defendo, and Combat Sambo are just some of the styles represented in Canada of a military bent.

Also most boxers are tougher than most martail artist, because of the training and most of the reasons mentioned above. This has nothing to do with technique or even skill. This has to do with being hit very hard on a regular basis. Most boxer fight, most martial artist don't unless you count the game of tag called point sparring. Yes a martial artist does have techniques available to him that would wreck havoc on a boxer if he was able to use them. However, since most martial artist don't train full contact , most are not used to being punched. This leads to disarray once they are hit.

Now, let me clarify things, as well as a former boxer, kickboxer and shootfighter, I am a martial artist. I have study at least two styles of karate, as well as judo, aikido and various other self defence oriented styles of combat. I agree with KennethKu on his strategy and believe some one who has trained full contact would be able to take advantage of a boxers obvious technical gaps. This post is remenicent of the old black belt articles, Muay thai vs. Aikido. They were useless articles and this is a useless debate. Except in this, learning the diffences allows you to shore up the weak spots in your training. No more no less.

Tony

I partly agree. But have you seen how martial artists in Asia train? Not for tournament sparring, not for world competition sparring, but full-contact, no holds barred, no decision, winner is the one who KO's the other guy or the guy submits. They train just as hard as the best boxers if not harder.