Western Boxing

[Rob_Broad]

Originally posted by KennethKu




"....You're delusional if you think they're even going to be there when your kick is launched. They also have good perception of range etc because they use it. They can move in and nullify your kick or remove themselves from it....."

and what makes you think the MArtists don't already know and proficient at this too? Even the color belts know about this basic stuff!! Like I said , we must be talking about different groups of MArtists.

A boxer is a lousy fighter but a good athlete. That is beyond debate. It is all too obvious. You have to be brain dead NOT to attack the groin, the knees . Any competent MArtist can kick the living day light out of most boxers. I don't even know why I have to explain this.

Okay wake up and check the sheets for a wet spot, I think you are having a wet dream. The reason a boxer is so good at fighting is they do train full force, they hit each hard all the time. Not like what most of us martial artists do, we have to pull our techniques or someone cold be seriuosly injured or worse. This constant pulling of techniques is habit forming.

A boxer may have less techniques than most martial artists but that allows them to truly master every punch in their arsenal. From reading your post I can see you haven't spent much time in the ring with a seasoned boxer, I suggest you try that for a while, and when the fog clears from the whuppin post your results.

 

[KennethKu]

If you check again, the wet spot is on you.

I can see how civilized the discussion at this thread is getting.

You are obviously incapable of making a distinction between rule based sport boxing, sport sparring and "everything goes" real fighting.

IF you really believe in your BS, I suggest you use your boxing style and go box with a Muah Thai boxer while letting the MT boxer uses his kicks and you stay with your fists only. You don't even have to worry about groin and knees in this situation. And let see how many seconds it takes before you kiss the floor.

I see no point in participating in your childish insult and will not respond further to people who has a problem engaging in an adult conversation.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

ok folks, both sides had a lot of good points before things started drifting into the more childish aspects of things... Can ya pick it up again, but without getting silly? Greatly appreciated. Thanks.

 

[Baoquan]

originally posted by KennethKu

IF you really believe in your BS, I suggest you use your boxing style and go box with a Muah Thai boxer while letting the MT boxer uses his kicks and you stay with your fists only. You don't even have to worry about groin and knees in this situation. And let see how many seconds it takes before you kiss the floor.

Dude, this has been done...as Gou said, boxers routinely took out thai boxers in fights under kick boxing rules.

Yes, boxing has weaknesses, but its very very good at what it does...and what it does is produce KO's. If you've never trained in a boxig gym, i suggest giving it a go, and sparing hard with some of the fighters there. If you have, and still have that opinion, you were in the wrong gym.



Cheers

Baoquan.

 

[Deathtrap101]

as much as i hate saying it, i gota agree with all these other guys that boxers are very sharp and effiecent at what they do. They pile there butter on smaller peice of bread while we tend to spread it a bit more over a larger aray of weapons, taking much longer to get the consistency of butter that boxers have .


I have spent some time boxing and well if i had to face off with one on the street im gonna make sure i put up a hell of a fight.

You wanna be able to effiecently fight boxers, take some time to learn how they fight and what they do, and think smart. Theres alot more too it than the old "one,two" They are conditioned and they can MOVE.

Boxers arnt invincible and niether are any other type of martial artists(not that im saying anyone said that). Its how i used to think when i first started martial arts.

 

[sweeper]

ok KennethKu, it realy sounds like you havn't trained in boxing much, I mean I hanv't trained in boxing but I have trained with alot of boxers (my jkd instructor used to box so we do alot of boxing in class including drills and such but it's not the same). Every boxing gym is diffrent, alot of boxers do train elboes, head buts, stomps, eye gauges (with the thumb) raking with laces, arm bars.. the stuff works in the ring and you have to be aware of it because other people train it to hurt you.. ever look at a boxing glove? ever wonder why the thumb is strapped to the fingers? people gauge with the thumb, that was designed to try to minimise it.. a jab that hits the eye with the thumb is plenty of force to detatch the retna, so boxers know how to avoid being hit in the eyes (hell of a boxer can slip a punch comming with a huge mitton on it why couldn't they slip a eye jab to the point of making it miss their target) In my opinion alot of boxers are better at dirty techs than some martial artists because most martial artists don't do stuff like headbut a heavy bag or try sneaking in a low shot to the groin. a good boxer should have no problem with low line kicks because this should be a consideration in their training (because it comes up in the boxing ring) and full contact rules for kickboxing show that aything above the waist isn't nessisaraly usefull 100% of the time. I'm not saying that any boxer would kill any martial artist, I just think you are under estimating their capability.

 

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by KennethKu
Like I said , we must be talking about different groups of MArtists.

Yeah, your imaginary world and the real one.

Originally posted by KennethKu
A boxer is a lousy fighter but a good athlete. That is beyond debate. It is all too obvious. You have to be brain dead NOT to attack the groin, the knees . Any competent MArtist can kick the living day light out of most boxers. I don't even know why I have to explain this.

Probably because you're wrong. Simply put. Boxers are made to fight. That is what they do. They practice it all the time. Kahraddy guys whiz around mostly in the air or play point tag.

On average, if you go to any martial arts school and any boxing gym you'll see that a boxer will take out the karateka. While you're flipping at the knees etc he's punching your lights out. Boxers train in a concentrated constant realistic manner for what they intend to achieve. Karate guys tend to have these wild feats of endurance they practice for only on testing day.

Sweeper put it best when he explained that there is more to boxing that obviously you understand. Deathtrap also put it nicely when he said while most martial artists are trying to evolve this large pool of techniques and material the boxer is like a guy sharpening a knife. He only has 8-10 tools he uses on a regular basis and use them he does. While you're collecting bags of plastic knives he's sharpening his one or two swords.

There are martial artists out there who train hard and realistically and are genuine tough people who put their knowledge of the art to use and can make it work. But when you look at all the soccer moms and their kids and the corner strip mall dojo and then compare that to a local boxing gym, well, kick at the legs and groin all you want. It ain't doing squat.

 

[arnisador]

It's not going to be nearly that easy to catch a boxer with a kick to the groin--and a groin kick isn't necessarily a fight-ender when you've got a moving opponent who may not catch it full-on dead-center.

Boxers train longer and harder than most martial artists. It shows. They're not invincible, but actually hitting people helps make you a better fighter. I'd rather wrestle a boxer than kick one frankly.

 

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by arnisador
It's not going to be nearly that easy to catch a boxer with a kick to the groin--and a groin kick isn't necessarily a fight-ender when you've got a moving opponent who may not catch it full-on dead-center.
Boxers train longer and harder than most martial artists. It shows. They're not invincible, but actually hitting people helps make you a better fighter. I'd rather wrestle a boxer than kick one frankly.

Which was why I started Judo/BJJ originally. Boxers have a lot of nasty tricks that help deal with in close fighting, almost stand up grappling. But You take them out of their element for a good portion of what they want to do when they hit the ground. Why? because they don't train there. Don't kid yourself into thinking they can't do anything down there but the grappling is the way to go.

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by GouRonin

.........There are martial artists out there who train hard and realistically and are genuine tough people who put their knowledge of the art to use and can make it work. But when you look at all the soccer moms and their kids and the corner strip mall dojo and then compare that to a local boxing gym, well, kick at the legs and groin all you want. It ain't doing squat.......

LIKE I SAID, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT DIFFERENT GROUPS OF MARTIAL ART PRACTITIONERS.

You are guys are talking about Soccer moms/ hobbyists amateurs and teen blackbelts. Most of the MArtists I know of, are NOT products of your typical McDojo.

Of course, when you are talking about the hobbyists MA folks, they are NOT real martial artists. That is all too obvious that they are not trained to fight. I don't even understand why you people still want to hang on to such painfully obvious fact. Don't you all already know this??

From all your comments, one has no choice but to conclude that there are wide spread lack of understanding of the realistic striking power of serious TKD, KT and JKD experts. It is very sad that people look at McDojo, soccer moms and teen blackbelts, and they think that is the real TKD, KT or JKD. I would think that you guys ought to know better.

An art that limit itself to the use of hands only, is inherently at a disadvantage to one that uses all human weapons available. And then to twist the argument into one that distorts the type of participants to give obvious one sides advantage to the boxers, brings to a totally waste of time conver.

If you insist on comparing trained boxers vs soccer moms, then this whole discussion is indeed a true waste of time.

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by Baoquan

Dude, this has been done...as Gou said, boxers routinely took out thai boxers in fights under kick boxing rules. ....

Really? Routinely???

Yeah. When they "routinely" go over to Thailand and win the prized MT fights, then that will shed some credibility to such claim.

 

[Baoquan]

Just discussing that which i have witnesssed.

I'm in Australia, which is quite close to Thailand, and we have a lot of thai trained kickboxers and yes, even REAL thai fighters competing in the Australian kickboxing scene. This is the forum in which trad boxers compete with thai fighters.

And yes, routinely, the boxers win. Not always, but often, especially under modified thai rules.

You will also note that a lot of the guys in this discussion are not "soccer moms", nor are they hobbyists, and they are of the opinion that boxers are excellent, capable martial artists.

If you insist on comparing trained boxers vs soccer moms, then this whole discussion is indeed a true waste of time.

this is also true if one refuses to even consider an interlocutors opinion....

Cheers

Baoquan.

 

[MartialArtist]

Most of you are delusional.

Boxing is a great art if you train in it properly. Same with any martial art.

I have trained in boxing. It's as good as any art. Trained properly, it may be all you need. Label it incomplete, but if you are fairly good at it and are quick, you won't need to know how to kick properly. That is in theory though.

It is true in the sport sense, boxing isn't the best, just like any martial art trained as a sport. Reason is you become reckless and leave openings like the groin and such open.

Boxers routinely take out muay thai fighters? Depends on skill, experience, and the physical state of the given state. But I have seen numerous muay thai boxers take out boxers, one of them being ranked #3 in some organization. Not the best organization but one that is well-respected.

All of you, especially Baoquan, are misled. Probably a boxer against any McDojo practitioner, regardless of the system.

Boxers in the West do train longer and most of the times, harder. But only the dedicated train like people in the East do. Professionals do train hard, but I don't think they're ready for how they train like they do in Asia. Totally different schemes. I don't think the instructor hits you with a stick if you do something wrong, like if you can't do pushups until he says you're done, on the knuckles, on concrete, and over a river so if you fall, you will probably get wet. And in 40-50 degree weather without anything but pants. Now, 9000 push-ups aren't beneficial physical wise, but it's more of a mental thing, and they have a lot of that.

What determines how hard you train is up to you, it can't be determined by style or whatnot. It is up to YOU how much effort and dedication you put. But trust me, the results are worth it.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Baoquan

Just discussing that which i have witnesssed.

I'm in Australia, which is quite close to Thailand, and we have a lot of thai trained kickboxers and yes, even REAL thai fighters competing in the Australian kickboxing scene. This is the forum in which trad boxers compete with thai fighters.

And yes, routinely, the boxers win. Not always, but often, especially under modified thai rules.

You will also note that a lot of the guys in this discussion are not "soccer moms", nor are they hobbyists, and they are of the opinion that boxers are excellent, capable martial artists.



this is also true if one refuses to even consider an interlocutors opinion....

Cheers

Baoquan.

Boxers = Capable Martial Artists = Yes
Boxers > Muay Thai = No
Boxers < Muay Thai = No

This is very liberal, but just see it. Baoquan, if you're making a point that boxers are great martial artists, you are right. If you insist that boxing is better than muay thai, you are wrong.

 

[Baoquan]

. Baoquan, if you're making a point that boxers are great martial artists, you are right. If you insist that boxing is better than muay thai, you are wrong.

not in the slightest...i have a very high regard for MT...just making a point that in professional competiton, boxers do well against MT fighters....

All of you, especially Baoquan, are misled.

please, educate me.

Baoquan.

 

[KennethKu]

Any competent MArtists would know Never to box a boxer and never to wrestle a wrestler.

So all these BS about "yeah go into the ring and box a boxer and find out how good a boxer is", is just what it is , BS. Firm grasp for the obvious.

To defeat a boxer, you obviously NOT going to box him! DUH!!!

So the obvious choice is to KICK him. And if you can't kick , then face your limitation and go train your kicks. If your kick has no power then work the bag. There is no magic there.

Again, this is obvious and plainfully so. Most MArtists already know this. I can't believe I have to repeat it here.

 

[tmanifold]

This is getting pointless,

to sum up,
side 1
Boxers don't fight with kicks or groin shots, etc so they would lose to any Martial artists( oh by the way, an average martial artist is not a hardcore JKD expert)
Side 2
Boxers train full contact against resisting opponents so they would beat your average martial artist,

Close enough,

Now, if a Martial artist trained like a boxer, with full contact fights etc. Then he would have the advantage in a real fight. And if a Boxer refused to fight outside the rules he would be at a disadvantage.

Here is a better comparison: an average boxer (not a pro just someone who boxes) and an average martial artist(not an expert just some one does martial arts) and set them against the same street tough. How would do better? I would argue the boxers for all the reasons that have been put forward. Does this mean everyone should quit their chosen art and start to box? NO!!! Just in corporate some of the training methods that make boxers so good into your training.

Tony

 

[Baoquan]

{appluads}

 

[J-kid]

Well i do UFC fights with my friends and we really go at it , some of my friends take TKD some do boxing some do kung fu, ETC

 

[J-kid]

But i do Judo jijutsu and wrestling and other styles of grappling mixed in with some kicks i pratice and boxing , First off you wanna play your game , when i am UFC fighting my friends i dont Just punch the boxer , I dont just kick with The tdk friend, I do grappling because it would not be smart to play there game with them, Doing Judo/Jijutsu Other forms of Wrestling works well on , You gotta use what you pratice , and i think full contact sparring is a good way to train every month i would say i do a full contact sparring with friends work on new moves test each other, It really gives you the feel of the fight . If the commen MAist did this they would be alot more stronger, Rules i use if you are thinking of doing this here they are,
No poking eyes
Half power to hits to the head
full power to body
no kicks to the balls area inless wearing cups
no head butts
no pulling hair
Ref will break fights up , If it looks to be a TKO
Or if they are holding each other on ground Ref will stand fighters up, rounds last like this first round 8 mins second round 5 and thrid round 5 , At the end if nither fighter has been KO or TKO or Submitted , Then the people watching the fight will deside the winner after fights we work on counters , diffrent skills , Trade moves , and work on team fighting, We also put gloves on and box from time to time , with boxing rules. we also race and do other things , These events are fun, and test your ablity/inproves it. hope you find this intresting and please be careful we Dont try to hurt each other , Because we are friends, Also please wear Gloves /cup /mouth guard, HAVE FUN your friend Judo-kid