West Denver - Lakewood

[geezer]

...the Sensei who teaches the general classes and is only at Blue-Green so far, is an incredibly intelligent guy and has an amazing knowledge of detail from his Academy classes that he attends every week...

I find this confusing. In most systems "blue-green" denotes an intermediate rank, yet you describe this person as "Sensei" or teacher, and not as a junior or assistant instructor? Could you clarify? In my experience, the head instructor at a school (or even a small club such as the one I run) is typically more seasoned both as a practitioner and as an instructor.

Regardless, I'm glad that you are enjoying your experiences at this school.

 

[Tames D]

The important thing is that it's a good fit for you and you're happy. However, it's always been a pet peeve of mine when a school that charges big bucks in tuition is using low ranking students as instructors.

 

[MamaBear2015]

I find this confusing. In most systems "blue-green" denotes an intermediate rank, yet you describe this person as "Sensei" or teacher, and not as a junior or assistant instructor? Could you clarify? In my experience, the head instructor at a school (or even a small club such as the one I run) is typically more seasoned both as a practitioner and as an instructor.

Regardless, I'm glad that you are enjoying your experiences at this school.

sen·sei
ˈsenˌsā,senˈsā/
noun
noun: sensei; plural noun: sensei

1. (in martial arts) a teacher.
   "Sensei Ritchie began work"

He may not be my teacher, given our rank differences, but he's a teacher at our school, and he's earned enormous respect from me, just from the details he knows so well, and the way he runs classes.

 

[MamaBear2015]

The important thing is that it's a good fit for you and you're happy. However, it's always been a pet peeve of mine when a school that charges big bucks in tuition...

Whatever a school charges, in a free market, meets an equilibrium of what students are willing to pay. It's voluntary and mutually consensual. I'm gladly paying it, and feel that the value for the money is just fine.

is using low ranking students as instructors.

I just explained in another post, how that works. They don't allow someone to teach unless they've been attending the academy, and then, only students below their rank.

The only thing that has frustrated me, is that I'd love to do a little teaching at my rank, but it's not allowed unless someone attends the academy, which is very exacting, and I understand that. They demand that it be taught nearly perfectly, so without that refinement, they won't let people teach.

This thread is interesting, because it addresses a lot of the perceptions that people outside the school apparently have, and the lenses that others see things through, but I've been inside this place for so long that I guess I'm seeing it with a clarity that people outside the school don't often have. It's the old "judging a book by its cover" analogy, I think.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

sen·sei
ˈsenˌsā,senˈsā/
noun
noun: sensei; plural noun: sensei

1. (in martial arts) a teacher.
   "Sensei Ritchie began work"

He may not be my teacher, given our rank differences, but he's a teacher at our school, and he's earned enormous respect from me, just from the details he knows so well, and the way he runs classes.

You still haven't clarified...is he the schools man instructor or one of the assistant instructors? Giving us the google definition of sensei doesn't tell us how you are using the word.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

just explained in another post, how that works. They don't allow someone to teach unless they've been attending the academy, and then, only students below their rank.

The only thing that has frustrated me, is that I'd love to do a little teaching at my rank, but it's not allowed unless someone attends the academy, which is very exacting, and I understand that. They demand that it be taught nearly perfectly, so without that refinement, they won't let people teach.

So practitioners of any rank can teach (students below their own rank), but only if they've attended the academy for instructors? What is covered in the academy? Does it just cover general pedagogy (how to teach) or does it cover specifics about what is taught at each level? Is it a one time thing to learn teaching methods or does the instructor have to go back for each belt level that he/she is qualified to teach?

Also, how advanced a rank is blue-green in your system? How long does it typically take to achieve?

Sorry for all the questions - I'm just nosy about how instruction is handled in different systems.

 

[MamaBear2015]

You still haven't clarified...is he the schools man instructor or one of the assistant instructors? Giving us the google definition of sensei doesn't tell us how you are using the word.

I actually did tell you. It's used in the objective definition sense, not the relativistic sense that other schools may see it as.

 

[geezer]

The important thing is that it's a good fit for you and you're happy. However, it's always been a pet peeve of mine when a school that charges big bucks in tuition is using low ranking students as instructors.

Actually, it's a pet peeve of mine that my students don't pay me the big bucks. Money is good!

Unfortunately, most of my students don't have much. Worse, I only teach adults, so they aren't cute enough for anybody to pay for them. And by chance, most are guys who have wives that keep an eye on their spending. So we're really cheap.

Now my son, by contrast goes to a commercial TKD school and my wife has no problem spending money on him. Fortunately the school owner is also a personal friend and gives me a good rate.

BTW Tames-- did you find out what the cost per month was at the "Z ultimate" place was? I didn't see anything about prices on their webpage.

On another topic, I did notice that they tend to use a mix of Chinese, Japanese and English terms. Not unusual for a Kenpo offshoot I guess. I wouldn't know, since I teach a Southern Chinese art using Cantonese terminology. Full instructor is sifu, and an senior student (who may be trained to be an assistant instructor) is si-hing.

I do not speak Japanese, but based on watching anime with my kids, In a Japanese or Okinawan art, I would guess that a senior student/assistant instructor would be more typically referred to as sempai? The term Sensei, at least as I've heard it used, usually refers to a full teacher, at least a black belt, or often a second degree black belt and above. But I'm sure that varies a lot, and I don't really know. ...Where's Chris Parker when you need him?

 

[MamaBear2015]

So practitioners of any rank can teach (students below their own rank), but only if they've attended the academy for instructors?

I think it's only if they continue attending the academy. It's an ongoing thing and actually helps them advance faster too, because they're getting an extra couple of hours a week of training in the material AND how to teach, including an amazing amount of detail that the way higher ranks impart to them in the academy. I'm saying that this teacher, who is lower ranked than me, is teaching me an amazing number of things and details, about forms and techniques that we both have from HIS current rank, that I never knew before! He therefore qualifies as awesome, in my thinking.

What is covered in the academy? Does it just cover general pedagogy (how to teach) or does it cover specifics about what is taught at each level?

Yes, all the above, and how to run a school - the business end too!

Is it a one time thing to learn teaching methods or does the instructor have to go back for each belt level that he/she is qualified to teach?

It's ongoing, for as long as that instructor is teaching and attending the academy. There's a lot about it that I don't know, only being a student, but this is what I've been hearing over the years.

Also, how advanced a rank is blue-green in your system? How long does it typically take to achieve?

I don't even remember how long. I started in 1998 and was there until 2003, during which time I reached 2nd Brown. I came back in October 2014 and had to start relearning everything, which I've been doing, and enjoying it. I used to think that I forgot it all, after leaving, but it was in there somewhere, in my brain. It's taking about half the time to relearn and get up to speed on.

Sorry for all the questions - I'm just nosy about how instruction is handled in different systems.

No problem. Understand. I appreciate this forum, because you're asking rational and intelligent questions and in the past I've seen too many places like this, where people would just flame other schools and styles. And I don't do that with other schools and styles either. Notice that when I said that I tried other schools, they didn't measure up to this one, to me. But I haven't tried all schools - just several within so many miles of me, AND it also depends on what someone wants from a school. This school just happens to have everything I'd personally want and need from a school, and I'd recommend it to anyone.

 

[geezer]

I appreciate this forum, because you're asking rational and intelligent questions and in the past I've seen too many places like this, where people would just flame other schools and styles.
....This school just happens to have everything I'd personally want and need from a school, and I'd recommend it to anyone.

Sounds like you are lucky to have found a place you love. And as far as "flaming" schools, that's against our rules on this forum. People have different needs and different tastes. All are welcome.

 

[geezer]

....I started in 1998 and was there until 2003, during which time I reached 2nd Brown. I came back in October 2014 and had to start relearning everything, which I've been doing, and enjoying it. I used to think that I forgot it all, after leaving, but it was in there somewhere, in my brain. It's taking about half the time to relearn and get up to speed on.

I also had a long lay-off from training. I trained my core art of Wing Chun from '79 through about '92 or so, and then left the martial arts for a long period. I started again in the fall of 2007. That's an absence of roughly 15 years. At first, it seemed like starting over from scratch. And being in my 50s at that time, I was not nearly as physically capable as before.

On the other hand, in these last 8+ years I have developed a much deeper understanding of my chosen art. So while not as physically capable as before, I feel that I have advanced both technically and conceptually. And I hope to continue to grow in my art for many years to come, and maybe someday even get promoted to the next rank!

 

[Tames D]

BTW Tames-- did you find out what the cost per month was at the "Z ultimate" place was? I didn't see anything about prices on their webpage.

Your students are lucky to have you. Sounds like they are getting quality instruction at a good price,
I didn't see tuition costs for Z Ultimate either. Curious myself.
The reason I brought up the USSD/Z Ultimate connection was because they seemed very similar and the USSD school in my neighborhood became Z Ultimate. A few years ago when my kids were 8 and 10 years old I put them in a Kenpo school taught by a 5th degree black (he's now 8th) for $50 each per month.
But before I did that, I checked out the USSD school. The head instructor was an 18 year old black belt. They wanted $175 each per month (keep in mind this was 9 years ago). My kids would have been learning from the Jr instructors (green belts) who didn't look more than 14 years old.
After leaving, I got text messages everyday pressuring me to sign the kids up. I repeatedly answered the texts with " thank you but I'm not interested". This went on until I finally went back to the school (without my kids this time) and made it clear in no uncertain terms that I don't want to hear from them again.

 

[WaterGal]

I actually did tell you. It's used in the objective definition sense, not the relativistic sense that other schools may see it as.

That doesn't actually answer the question. Is this intermediate-level color belt your school's head instructor, or is he an assistant instructor who teaches some beginner classes under the supervision of a more high-ranking/qualified person?

 

[geezer]

The reason I brought up the USSD/Z Ultimate connection was because they seemed very similar and the USSD school in my neighborhood became Z Ultimate. A few years ago when my kids were 8 and 10 years old I put them in a Kenpo school taught by a 5th degree black (he's now 8th) for $50 each per month.

That is a very low price for a commercial school when you consider rent and operating expenses, insurance, etc., and a decent, livable wage for the instructor. All in all, I'd say you got a great deal.

A friend of mine who operates a couple of schools in another state confided in me that he found it easier to attract students when he raised his rates. He said that most people in his area tend to assume that the cheapest schools must be of lower quality, while the most expensive are probably overpriced. He has done well by pricing himself somewhere in the upper-middle bracket.

 

[WaterGal]

Actually, it's a pet peeve of mine that my students don't pay me the big bucks. Money is good!

Unfortunately, most of my students don't have much. Worse, I only teach adults, so they aren't cute enough for anybody to pay for them. And by chance, most are guys who have wives that keep an eye on their spending. So we're really cheap.

Now my son, by contrast goes to a commercial TKD school and my wife has no problem spending money on him. Fortunately the school owner is also a personal friend and gives me a good rate.

Hah, yeah, people are usually much more willing to spend money on activities for their kids than for themselves. Most of our adult students are the parents/relatives of a kid that takes classes with us, training at discounted family rate.

I do not speak Japanese, but based on watching anime with my kids, In a Japanese or Okinawan art, I would guess that a senior student/assistant instructor would be more typically referred to as sempai? The term Sensei, at least as I've heard it used, usually refers to a full teacher, at least a black belt, or often a second degree black belt and above. But I'm sure that varies a lot, and I don't really know. ...Where's Chris Parker when you need him?

"Teacher" is the common translation for sensei, and that's how it's used in a martial arts context. But technically speaking, it's basically a polite way to address to a learned professional, whether that's a teacher, doctor, priest, lawyer, etc. I guess basically anybody that's in a position of teaching you or giving you advice.

(Edit: I guess that maybe misses the point of your comment a bit, hahaha.)

 

[WaterGal]

A friend of mine who operates a couple of schools in another state confided in me that he found it easier to attract students when he raised his rates. He said that most people in his area tend to assume that the cheapest schools must be of lower quality, while the most expensive are probably overpriced. He has done well by pricing himself somewhere in the upper-middle bracket.

We've found something similar, though I wasn't sure how much of it was about the actual dollar figure, and how much of it was a shift in our attitude towards charging people money. When my fiance and I got started, we both felt bad about charging even market-rate tuition, because we knew how much of a burden that can be for lower-income families and didn't want to turn people away from the benefits that martial arts can provide. To be painfully honest and blunt, we almost went into both business and personal bankruptcy because of that attitude.

Now, we charge a little more, and I'm done feeling bad about that, and the school is doing a lot better. It costs this, and if you can't pay it, that's too bad. That's what we need to charge in order to have a very nice and convenient facility employing two full-time qualified professionals and a couple part-timers. I think that change in attitude makes us seem confident in our program, that yes, it's worth paying over $100/month for.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

.

 

[MamaBear2015]

Sounds like you are lucky to have found a place you love. And as far as "flaming" schools, that's against our rules on this forum. People have different needs and different tastes. All are welcome.

 

[MamaBear2015]

I also had a long lay-off from training. I trained my core art of Wing Chun from '79 through about '92 or so, and then left the martial arts for a long period. I started again in the fall of 2007. That's an absence of roughly 15 years. At first, it seemed like starting over from scratch. And being in my 50s at that time, I was not nearly as physically capable as before.

On the other hand, in these last 8+ years I have developed a much deeper understanding of my chosen art. So while not as physically capable as before, I feel that I have advanced both technically and conceptually. And I hope to continue to grow in my art for many years to come, and maybe someday even get promoted to the next rank!

Cool. I started at this school in 1998 at the age of 50.

As far as the other comments about fees; One of the schools I tried in the years between this one, charged $50 a month. They were in an old run down building and kept pushing me to test when *I* didn't think I was ready. They had a LOT of black belts - probably because of that, and the black belts didn't seem to remember their most basic material. They are now out of business. So in the Denver area, at least, I'd equate $50 a month with either a back yard school, or being out of business.

As far as what our school charges, I'd rather not get into it, because it's not like buying a new TV or car, where you can just shop for the lowest price and get the same thing either way. They're charging as much as I gladly pay, because I think I'm getting good value for the money.

I happen to be a capitalist, not an altruist, so if they're making my life better, I want to do the same for them. If I had tens of millions, I'd likely build an amazing branch of this school and spend a fortune, because of those factors. They literally have saved my life, and my cardiologist will attest to it, and when a guy attacked me, in the line of my work, he went to the ER and I didn't have a scratch or bruise on me.

 

[Tames D]

That is a very low price for a commercial school when you consider rent and operating expenses, insurance, etc., and a decent, livable wage for the instructor. All in all, I'd say you got a great deal.

Yes, probably too low. The school folded a couple years later. I've been training my kids since.