Weight Training and Chi-Sau

[geezer]

First, time being spent on things that take more time to develop. With weapons, you can become deadly very fast, specially with bladed ones.

It takes much more time to become skilled in empty hand control manipulations so that it is YOU who decided the level of control and damage inflicted while minimizing your risk of being harmed. The Ultimate Martial Goal.

Also, in Criminal Statistics, knife fights are on the nil part of the scale. Many times knives are pulled it is for defensive purposes. Knife attacks are surprise murder attempts for the most part, so knife on knife, specially 2 knives on one side, nil.

I recognize that in the UK it may be different, please advise.

As you said, in general, most BCD forms seem made up. I follow the ones that are consistent with those taught by Ip Chun.

Many people doing the movements show that they don't know about the mechanics of cutting someone up, and that the knives are not machetes.

Other times, the footwork used destroys stability and mobility, specially while moving back and moving the body before the blade or any kind of mechanism is put to action to prevent one from being stabbed, hit, etc.

I am considering integrating into the weapon forms mechanisms to make it a worthwhile form, yet it takes a while, and there is a possibility that it cannot be saved in present form.

With the 3 forms, I've had no trouble in emphasizing the correcting and optimizing mechanisms, since for some strange reason, seem to be there in a subtle fashion. Unfortunately, if you don't know them, as I didn't, you cannot get the maximum benefits. You get something, yet I've noticed my skills have improved vastly and my performance is so much better!

Yet no matter how good you are, you can ALWAYS grow and improve your performance!

Eternal Springtime, baby! That's some Wing Chun for ya!

Last month I found a very, VERY advanced training method in Bil Jee, that requires you to have trained YEARS before reaping the benefits. It has to do with shortening movements even more while keeping the structure and power. You would believe it only if I showed you!

If you're lucky enough to be taught and practicing a form that has all the benefits you want, I'm happy with that! In my opinion I wasn't.

There are movements that have good mechanics, yet you can practice them in empty hand form, against live humans to learn practical skills better.

There is more, but gotta go to give today's class!

Thanks for the posts! Good discussion!!

Juan Mercado-Robles
Mercado Martial Academy
Academia de Artes Marciales de Carolina

Eternal Springtime, baby!!

I agree with a lot of what you say. First of all always retain a critical eye. Never mindlessly practice things without thinking them through, "just because sifu said so". Instead we need to look beneath the surface and try to really understand what these movements are about.

Secondly, I agree that the knives by themself are not as relevant as they may have been centuries ago. Their value is partially tradition, and partially what they add to our empty-handed wing chun skills. I can not answer that question myself yet since I have not completed the knife training and applications as taught in my branch of the art. Of course anybody buy a book, DVD or go on youtube to learn somebody's version of the set!

As far as authenticity goes, I've discussed this with friends who are pretty deep into the art and have worked with masters here, in Europe and in Hong Kong. And, my old Chinese sifu did some research in Fatshan (Fo'shan)starting way back in the '80's when more of the old practioners were still alive. The general concensus is that Grandmaster Ip wasn't a great fan of the weapons either, and placed more emphasis on empty hands fighting. Accordingly, he didn't pass on the Bart Cham Dao sets to more than a few students. Most, possibly including some of his best students, didn't get all the sections. I'm told this group that didn't get the whole set may include the grandmasters own sons, Ip Chun and Ip Ching. I wouldn't be surprised. After all many say they were not their father's best students. But we all somehow think that such things should be inherited like aristocratic titles. Well if that were so, I'd be a micro-surgeon doing delicate work on the inner ear with a team of neurologists and otologists (like my father). Trust me, you don't want me doing surgery on you! My degrees are in anthropology and art!

Weeell, to conclude, it seems that most all of Grandmaster Yip's students have come up with something to sell as the Bart Cham Dao form. Some, no doubt managed to get ahold of something close to the Grandmaster's version, and others seem to have cobbled together stuff that doesn't look much at all like what most of us think of as Wing Chun. Maybe they stole short sword sets from other styles or just made stuff up altogether. The sad thing is none of those cagey old teachers will come clean about this. Too much ego, politics and money involved. Heck if you really want to learn weapons for actual use, I'd recommend some of the FMA out there. That stuff has been actually used to kill by the last generation of masters. But that doesn't really figure into why I study the martial arts.

 

[geezer]

Best weight training for wing chun is Kettlebells if you do them correctly. They will greatly improve your wing chun while building strength. if you don't do them correctly though they can mess you up.

Thanks. Others whose advice I trust have said the same thing.

If you are referring to Yip Man's knife form. The problem is more in how,who,when and what Yip taught than in forms being made up although that has happened as well...

Others got forms that had 8 or less sections depending upon when they were taught and how much they were paying...

Take all these variations and add in the desire of many to 'complete' the form and you get personal additions to the form. I won't say made up since Yip Man made up several versions of the form himself. He also made up the name Batt Chum Doa

I regret that I didn't see this entry when I was posting my previous comments. I was probably writing that about the time you posted this, Hunt. You speak as one who has delved into this quite a bit, trying to unravel the mystery. I've spoken with a few others who also have a lot of knowledge in this area, but the problem, like everything in WC is that it is all hearsay based on stories the various Yip Man disciples have shared. What you've stated may be largely true.... much of it makes good sense, but it's imposible to verify exactly who was taught what and when.

Regardless of what can be "objectively" substantiated, I suspect you have the big picture right. I'm told that research into other lineages in Fatshan suggests that the Bart Cham Dao form is quite old... perhaps older that some of the empty handed sets such as Biu Tze. And, when it's possible to make a comparison, it seems that the older versions of WC forms are longer and more complex. This simplifying trend is characteristic of WC, and Grandmaster Yip continued in this vein. The old book by Yip Chun and Leung Ting titled 116 Wooden Dummy Techniques suggests that this happened with the mook yang jong form as well, with Grandmaster Yip reducing it to 108 movements from perhaps as many as 140. I learned the 116 movements in the LT system, and I don't know how many movements Ip Chun teaches now.

In all the above cases, there is a tendency to presume that the older or "original" versions are somehow purer, more "authentic" and better. Maybe this is especially true in Chinese culture with its strong Confucian traditionalism. On the other hand, WC has always been a bit of a rebel art since it diverged from it's supposed shaolin roots, centuries ago. I would like to think that a true 'Chunner, no matter what lineage, would respect "what works" above all else. I suppose that means we should be more open to evolution in what we do. And maybe, to get back on-topic, that applies to using weights and other training methods too. --Peace.

 

[bully]

Thanks Hunt1 great post, really enjoyed reading the history. Whether its right or wrong I don't know.

What is your source??

 

[hunt1]

Thanks Geezer and Bully. Time is short so fast answers. Learned about Yip Chun and Yip Ching versions from them talking over dinner together. Learned about Moy Yat from Moy Yat talking about his learning from Yip Man. Learned about Yip Bo Ching and learned his 12 section form from one of the 5 friends/students he taught. WSL from WSL his brothers and students, TST from TST talking about his Time with Yip Man. Also stories from several others that learned wing chun in Hong Kong while Yip Man, Jiu Wan etc were still alive.

Geezer you are right its hard to know whats true. For stories I tend to go with same accounts from different people that never were refuted by those named. Also The more I delved into things the more it became apparent that Yip taught many privitaly if they were paying well and made no effort to inform anyone who he taught or what he taught them. Leung Ting is a good example of some one that had some private instruction yet the general group of Yips students did not know or recognize this.

Another example happened in New York in early 70's. Moy Yat made statement that he was only true Yip Man student teaching in new York and anyone else that claimed to be a Yip student was lying. He had a hot confrontation with Duncan Leung due to this statement because Duncan had been a private student of Yips and Moy Yat never had any knowledge of him while in Hong Kong

 

[seasoned]

My 2 cents. Train don't strain. Weights added to your current training regiment will only enhance your abilities. Don't train separate, but include them into your workouts. Training what will diminish with age is a smart move, speed, flexibility, and strength. There are always different trains of thought which helps to foster good communication between arts. I believe that some arts need more sensitivity while others need some added power. Speed plus mass = power. We are touching on an age old philosophy that has been commented on many times. Balance is the key.

 

[zepedawingchun]

Another example happened in New York in early 70's. Moy Yat made statement that he was only true Yip Man student teaching in new York and anyone else that claimed to be a Yip student was lying. He had a hot confrontation with Duncan Leung due to this statement because Duncan had been a private student of Yips and Moy Yat never had any knowledge of him while in Hong Kong

My first WC sifu was a student of Moy Yat Sigung, a disciple by the name of Bill Wong. Many of them (disciples) left him due problems and several went to Duncan Leung Sigung to complete their WC training. I had heard Leung Sigung was a private student of Moy Yat Sigung and heard he was very skilled. Of course, many people later on learned of Duncan Leung Sigung and his skills.

 

[zepedawingchun]

Also stories from several others that learned wing chun in Hong Kong while Yip Man, Jiu Wan etc were still alive.

As many know here on MT, I'm a student of Sifu Francis Fong. Few know of his lineage, but he studied with Sigung Jiu Wan for 7 years. He doesn't talk much about it, or Sigung Jiu Wan. Sifu tries to keep out of the WC politics and squabbles that are in the WC families.

I'd like to know a little bit about Sigung Jiu Wan, if you would. Anything you can tell me about Sigung Jiu Wan, how skilled, his reputation, what kind of repect he received, anything, would be appreciated. Many claim him under the flag of Yip Man Sigung, having trained under him. My knowledge is he was nephew to Yip Man Sigung, having trained with Chan Yu Mim (and Jiu Tong, an uncle) in Fat Shan. It is stated by many that Yip Man Sigung attested to Sigung Jiu Wan having the original Wing Chun as it was taught to Yip Man Sigung (I don't really care about that, what's original and what's not. To me it's not important, because I'm sure my Sifu's WC is different than what Sigung Jiu Wan taught).

If you don't want to talk about it openly, you can PM me. Just curious about Sigung Jiu Wan, since he is not talked about very much in WC circles.

 

[hunt1]

Sure I know Francis, I went to school at Emory and my first teacher was Richard Chen he is Jason's older brother and started with Jui Wan before them. Francis used to stop by and he and Richard would talk about Wing chun in Hong Kong.

Jui Wan and Yip Man were close Yip Man would often hang out with jui wan and his students. Really of all the Jui Wan Yip stories i heard Jui Wan's son gives the best account. According to him Jui Wan knew Yip in Fatshan and they trained together a bit along with many others. When he got to HK jui Won hooked up with Yip Man again. He found that Yip's wing chun was different and yip's skill was much higher than it had been in Fatshan. He asked yip what had happened and what was he doing with his wing chun. Yip told him about what he learned from Leung Bik. Jui Wan then asked if Yip would teach him and Yip agreed. However their relationship was always more of older younger brother than teacher student.

Jui Wan is the only person Yip ever gave a written endorsement to open a school and teach. Hearsay is the Jui Wans school was considered neutral territory by certain groups as he was a popular teacher among certain groups. When Yip died there were several of yips students that looked to Jui Wan to be the next head although just as many thought WSL should be the next head but neither were interested in being the leader of Yip Mans wing chun family.

Hope this helps.

 

[profesormental]

Same thing I heard. Part of my lineage is Jiu Wan-Jason Lau-My Teacher.

Adding resistance to movements in an intelligent manner is always a good idea in my book. Explosiveness that comes from proper alignment makes it more powerful still.

 

[Nabakatsu]

Profesormental, you said: Adding resistance to movements in an intelligent manner is always a good idea in my book. Explosiveness that comes from proper alignment makes it more powerful still.
I don't suppose you would be willing to explain a method you have used to obtain this affect? always curious to hear about such things.

 

[profesormental]

For example, a weight vest while doing footwork drills is a good idea.

Chain punching or blocking for technique and form with either wrist weights (explode only in proper moments) or resistance tubes/bands. This is very good for getting stamina on the shoulders. Be careful not to strain with poor technique or strengthening upwards instead of the direction of the offensive/defensive movements.

Pretty standard things. Some Hung gar practitioners do it with some Iron rings.

Other lifts as mentioned include olympic lifts, as they help you get strength to manhandle people if they get too close for comfort... then you can get them to a comfortable range and take care of business as usual.

Doing the basics (i.e. SLT movements) with a wrist weight obligates you to use correct biomechanics to move, or you will move sloppy. If it includes turning, you better get good control, or you'll knock yourself out of base.

Pretty standard stuff. I like weight training for the tendon strength I can acquire by doing certain routines. Adding some plyometrics for the legs for explosiveness in a controlled manner as to keep the knees healthy, that is a lot of auxiliary training.

Yet training hard against a resisting partner is always the best, and auxiliary training like weights shouldn't take time away from that.

It is important to prioritize time for what you can and want accomplish.

Those are the ones we've done on regular basis. Hope that helps.

Juan Mercado Robles

 

[geezer]

Just curious about Sigung Jiu Wan, since he is not talked about very much in WC circles.

Hey Z, thanks for asking Hunt about this. I think we were all curious. Also, couldn't help but notice the way you use the term "sigung" as a sort of generic honorific for all the senior WC masters or "grandmasters". I've seen the term sifu used sort of like that. I've been told that depending on context and how the characters are written it can either mean your personal sifu, ie "teacher-father", or it can mean any teacher. On the other hand, I've only heard "si-gung" used specifically to refer to your "teacher-grandfather" or "sifu's sifu", and not as a generic term for "grandmaster", etc. I have heard variously "chung-si" and "dai-sifu" used that way. Anyway I don't speak Cantonese, ...just wondered about it.

 

[zepedawingchun]

Sure I know Francis, I went to school at Emory and my first teacher was Richard Chen he is Jason's older brother and started with Jui Wan before them. Francis used to stop by and he and Richard would talk about Wing chun in Hong Kong.

Thanks for the stuff on Sigung Jiu Wan. Some of that I had heard and some of it was new to me. As I stated, Sifu doesn't talk much about training in HK, you probably know why. That's cool that you trained with Sibak Richard Chen. I met him once in. . . . 1987 I believe. I have a Sidai that spent New Years Eve 1985 (or was it '86) at a party with Sifu, Sibak Richard, and a few other WC people. Sidai sat by Sibak half the night and talked about Moy Yat (as you know, Sibak Richard went under Moy Yat Sigung's flag when he came to the U.S.), and Wing Chun in NY. Sibak Richard gave Sidai a business card that night which we used a year or so later to expose a fraud who was claiming to study under Sibak Richard Chen. It's a funny story . . .

In Spring of 1986, there was someone local who started a WC class at one of the YMCA centers. Two of my younger gung fu brothers and I heard about this guy and decided we'd go visit, see what he had and where he came from.

It was a Saturday afternoon when we found his class. He had 4 student's, all kids under the age of 12, teaching them. . . . . something. Didn't look like any WC I'd ever seen. When we walked in, he was doing something like a fook sao, but using it like a downward block against a karate punch. It was more like hacking at the punch than anything else. Anyway, after a while, he came over to us and introduced himself. He said class would be over in a few minutes and then he'd talk with us. So we just watched.

By this time, I had already been training Biu Jee form (under my first sifu) and knew whatever he was doing was not in any of the empty hand or dummy forms. When his class was over, this guy came back and we asked him where he trained Wing Chun. He said New York, as in New York City. We were a little surprised, so we asked him if he trained with Moy Yat. He didn't know who Moy yat was, never heard of him, and asked who he was. We were stunned, anyone who knows anything about WC knows or knew who Moy Yat was at that time. So then we asked him who his sifu was. And he said Richard Chen. At that time, my sidai who had met Sibak Richard a year of so earlier, looked puzzled and asked Richard Chen? Sidai said Richard Chen . . . that name's familiar, Richard Chen? Sidai then walked off while me and my other Sidai continued to talk to this guy.

About a minute later, Sidai walked up, pulled out his wallet, and from it displayed a business card and said to the guy 'you studied with THAT Richard Chen, from NY?' The guy lloked at the card and immediately started back peddling, studdering, saying 'well . . I . . I . . .mean, I didn't study with Richard Chen. My uncle did and I studied with my uncle for a while, so I call Richard Chen my sifu'.

It was the funniest thing to see this guy, who knew had been caught in a lie, trying to cover his story and convince us he was a legitimate WC instructor. He probably hadn't studied longer than a year or so, if that. His Siu Nim Tao was terrible, choppy and no structure or position what-so-ever. We left laughing, wondering how anyone could have the nerve to try and teach ******** like that. That was my first exposure to the many frauds in WC that I have met.

I could tell you some stories of the many. . . . jerks I've met teaching, claiming to have WC or gung fu training in general. It makes me sick.

Since you knew Sifu Francis in the 1980's, did you know his students Lun Syn (spelling?) and Morgan Morris? I had heard Sihing Morgan Morris was now some sort of professor at Emory. I wondered if that was true and if you knew anything about him. Sihing Morgan was funny as could be, always a smile on his face.

Since you mentioned Jason Lau (and profesormental too), I have met Sibak Jason Lau on several occasions. He's a staunch defender of the Jiu Wan line, and proud to tell you that he is. The last time I saw him, I spent 2 hours at his restaurant with SiHing Eddie Camden back in the middle 1990's, talking WC and training. Sibak Jason was hilarious, always telling a joke, keeping you laughing. But when he gets serious, get out of his way. I've never seen his WC but heard from others that his is very different than Sifu Francis. Softer.

Thanks hunt1.

 

[hunt1]

Happy to say I dont the person you are talking about but no doubt I would know his uncle if his uncle did train with Richard that long ago.

While I met and did some chi sau with several of Francis students I really don't remember them by name. Francis had a very good size school by the early 80s. I graduated from Emory in 1984. I never met Morgan Morris so i can't say if he is a professor there or not.

Jason and Francis had a more similar interpretation of wing chun back then. In my exp over time we each follow our own understanding of wing chun.

 

[MattB]

Weight training is good you i think. It can help you work on buliding up muscular endurance, useing lighter weights @ higher reps. This is what you need for wing chun anyway right?
I do agree that you can put on too much bulk that can hinder your wing chun skills some what over all weight training is good just look at any boxer for example.

 

[chisauking]

Ho, ho, ho one of the most asked questions within wing chun is this one and 'what is chisau'?

The answer is very easy, and the person that's most qualified to answer this is......oneself! After all, who knows one's body better than oneself? One can feel the effects of weight training for themselves, so they should know whether it helps or not.

No matter how one approaches wing chun training, it's incontrovertible that wing chun practitioner needs to be flexible in order to flow & change from one shape \ position to the next. Being stiff & bulky prevents one from the full range of motion to acheive this aim. On the other hand, it can't be denied that having extra strength can improve one's ability to perform more effectively.

So, we should try to increase our 'real world' strength without 'bulky' ourselves up and losing our flexibility. The best way to acheive this is already in the system: SLT, Dragon pole, BJD, but few get to the stage of the pole & dho.

The best solution if you can't wait to get to the pole & bjd to increase your strength would be to use weight training -- but in specific manners that focus on developing strength, and not size. In my experience, weight training & using weights to develop strength are two different things. Also, using weights effects people in different ways.

At the end of the day, if weight training helps and it doesn't slow you down -- or you can compensate for the negative effects of weight training -- then do it. If not, then don't do it. It's as simple as that.