Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.
Note: This feature may not be available in some browsers.
The style of Iaido that I've recently started studying is Muso Shinden Ryu.Okay, cool. I'm assuming Seitei Iaido, yeah? And I'm familiar with the tools used, for the record...
Partly beacause the concentration in one facet is so deep they simply dont have time to do another. kendo bu have a more or less 365 day schedule of what training they do and events/competiton they should cover.I'm curious if you're aware of any organized group that isn't so faceted (I like that term), where they cover some of all of this, as I expect "some of all" would be a reasonably complete (but less in-depth) training in swordsmanship.
So he cut the mat in half wrong?
This is the basic idea you don't understand and never will about sword work. And martial arts in general. And why you will always be wrong when it comes to these discussions.
Than a person who regularly sword fights.
Someone who chops a mat in half? Would be a much more even competition.
The guy cutting mats in half is further along the path to swordsmanship than the guy still choosing his sword.
And yet he has half a mat. Against what is apparently impossible odds. Wrong tool wrong technique.
Right result.
There is no suitable equipment. You don't think that is kind of strange?
This is not a normal discussion.
Correct. So I am viewing as a practical skill rather than a ritual one.
My confusion is that it is explained as a practial skill. In that sword safety, effective technique and the ability of the tool to do the job well.
Hence things like if you use the wrong axe you are fighting against yourself a bit.
Now. I have no issue with people demanding for themselves that these precise set of curcumstances be adheared to. In the same way If someone wants to box with a set of cleto's more power to them.
But the idea that this could not be done without this absolute exact set of curcumstances just does not seem very likley to me.
Well Brendan mentioned that a whole list of options has been shown so mabye I was wrong.
But imagine this was any other activity. Say tennis. And I go to a tennis coach and ask "which raquet should I get?"
And generally you would get the advice that there are raquets you should not get, Raquets that are the ducks nuts and something about suitable in between,
This never seems to happen with swords. There is no pinned down sutable sword exept what you are told to get from your instructor.
So the answer for photon guys question is shut the hell up and get what you are told.
Which would not be considered suitable advice in any other curcumstance.
Yeah. But there would still be a viable option from the people who know what they are on about.
This seems more like the karate belt issue. Where you have to spot for a $300 belt for it to be valid.
It think it is more about elitism than function.
And that is fine. But why do these holdover traditions effect other systems?
I can't see a reason why if a system wants to venture out and design a cheaper iado they couldn't. But I am starting to believe they just would not be allowed to.
Which by the way they seemed to do with the kyokushin gear I mentioned.
Official Isami Kyokushin Belts Gis | ChokeSports.com
The style of Iaido that I've recently started studying is Muso Shinden Ryu.
That's a good way of expressing it. It can come across as making fun of them, but I don't think that was your intention. They are recreating something, not looking for the ultimate mat-cutting technique/weapon (nor even necessarily an effective one, since mat-cutting isn't the purpose for most of them).@drop bear you're either forgetting or haven't realized something in these sword art threads that can be summed up in one word/acronym: LARPing.
People are asking for advice on what comes down to what is the proper tool for their LARPing activity. If this was LARPing medieval dining and they were asking for a type of fork, your advice of "any pronged fork that holds the meat and gets it into your mouth is sufficient" wouldn't hold water and would get the purists all over your lack of understanding medieval ways.
You're discussing "real world" cause and effect, they're discussing LARP.
I'm not trying to be condescending at all to those invested in Japanese swordsmanship. But "the right way" to draw, carry, display, cut, etc. is a IMO a form of LARPing. There are certainly other ways which are demonstrably quite effective (the mat was in fact cut in half without anyone losing a limb, after all), but that doesn't mean it was done "the right way" according to specific Japanese swordsmanship or any other swordsmanship protocol/ traditions.
That was exactly my point.That's a good way of expressing it. It can come across as making fun of them, but I don't think that was your intention. They are recreating something, not looking for the ultimate mat-cutting technique/weapon (nor even necessarily an effective one, since mat-cutting isn't the purpose for most of them).
Looking back at my own words, "recreate" may be another way to look at it. In the US, there are groups that re-enact parts of the Civil War. They wear uniforms that are reasonably accurate to the period and circumstances (to varying degrees, depending how dedicated they are to accuracy), and use weapons (firing blanks, obviously) of the period. There are certainly better rifles now, and if one just wants to make some gunpowder go "bang", there are other ways that are equally effective. But if they want to re-enact those battles, they will use the tactics of those troops, load their weapons like those troops, etc.
This is true, but you aren't seeing the whole picture. Cutting a mat "the right way" in a Japanese sword arts context does not mean cutting it according to protocol or traditions (although it being Japanese, those are always present). It means cutting a mat in such a way that you utilize the power of your center rather than your arms, and you remain in the proper balance and with the sword in the proper position to immediately follow up that cut with another, no matter what your opponent may do.There are certainly other ways which are demonstrably quite effective (the mat was in fact cut in half without anyone losing a limb, after all), but that doesn't mean it was done "the right way" according to specific Japanese swordsmanship or any other swordsmanship protocol/ traditions.
Nice description, thanks.This is true, but you aren't seeing the whole picture. Cutting a mat "the right way" in a Japanese sword arts context does not mean cutting it according to protocol or traditions (although it being Japanese, those are always present). It means cutting a mat in such a way that you utilize the power of your center rather than your arms, and you remain in the proper balance and with the sword in the proper position to immediately follow up that cut with another, no matter what your opponent may do.
This is why practice cutting (tameshigiri) is just another tool to try and teach proper swordsmanship. The Japanese sword arts are taught the same way they have been in the past, as if you will actually need your sword to survive. This means that if you use only your upper body and arms when cutting, you will tire quickly and leave an opening where your opponent can kill you. If you use too much power and over-reach when cutting, you will leave an opening where your opponent can kill you. If you put your body into the cut so you are off balance, you will leave an opening and your opponent will kill you. The objective of test cutting within the Japanese sword arts is not cutting the target, the objective is cutting the target correctly in order to stay alive. It's a lot more difficult to do, but it's hard to understand (and see) the difference if you aren't actually familiar with the sword arts.
It is a lot more than LARPing or reenactment in that proper technique, and understanding why there is a proper technique, is more important than being historically correct. Anybody with an interest can do some research and invest in period clothing and do quite well in a LARP or reenactment group. It takes considerably more effort to learn a traditional martial art.
I don't think anyone was trying to imply it was as easy as LARPing or re-enacting, just that there are considerations besides simply cutting a mat, and some of those considerations go to focusing on the traditional sword used by the ryuha (surely there are other swords that would perform as well for either cutting or overall swordwork, but it wouldn't be that system). And that there's a focus on something other than cutting the mat (as you point out in your post).This is true, but you aren't seeing the whole picture. Cutting a mat "the right way" in a Japanese sword arts context does not mean cutting it according to protocol or traditions (although it being Japanese, those are always present). It means cutting a mat in such a way that you utilize the power of your center rather than your arms, and you remain in the proper balance and with the sword in the proper position to immediately follow up that cut with another, no matter what your opponent may do.
This is why practice cutting (tameshigiri) is just another tool to try and teach proper swordsmanship. The Japanese sword arts are taught the same way they have been in the past, as if you will actually need your sword to survive. This means that if you use only your upper body and arms when cutting, you will tire quickly and leave an opening where your opponent can kill you. If you use too much power and over-reach when cutting, you will leave an opening where your opponent can kill you. If you put your body into the cut so you are off balance, you will leave an opening and your opponent will kill you. The objective of test cutting within the Japanese sword arts is not cutting the target, the objective is cutting the target correctly in order to stay alive. It's a lot more difficult to do, but it's hard to understand (and see) the difference if you aren't actually familiar with the sword arts.
It is a lot more than LARPing or reenactment in that proper technique, and understanding why there is a proper technique, is more important than being historically correct. Anybody with an interest can do some research and invest in period clothing and do quite well in a LARP or reenactment group. It takes considerably more effort to learn a traditional martial art.
Just trying to clarify for those unfamiliar with it. Thought about it, and went to see if I could find some video to make it more clear.I don't think anyone was trying to imply it was as easy as LARPing or re-enacting, just that there are considerations besides simply cutting a mat, and some of those considerations go to focusing on the traditional sword used by the ryuha (surely there are other swords that would perform as well for either cutting or overall swordwork, but it wouldn't be that system). And that there's a focus on something other than cutting the mat (as you point out in your post).
This is true, but you aren't seeing the whole picture. Cutting a mat "the right way" in a Japanese sword arts context does not mean cutting it according to protocol or traditions (although it being Japanese, those are always present). It means cutting a mat in such a way that you utilize the power of your center rather than your arms, and you remain in the proper balance and with the sword in the proper position to immediately follow up that cut with another, no matter what your opponent may do.
This is why practice cutting (tameshigiri) is just another tool to try and teach proper swordsmanship. The Japanese sword arts are taught the same way they have been in the past, as if you will actually need your sword to survive. This means that if you use only your upper body and arms when cutting, you will tire quickly and leave an opening where your opponent can kill you. If you use too much power and over-reach when cutting, you will leave an opening where your opponent can kill you. If you put your body into the cut so you are off balance, you will leave an opening and your opponent will kill you. The objective of test cutting within the Japanese sword arts is not cutting the target, the objective is cutting the target correctly in order to stay alive. It's a lot more difficult to do, but it's hard to understand (and see) the difference if you aren't actually familiar with the sword arts.
It is a lot more than LARPing or reenactment in that proper technique, and understanding why there is a proper technique, is more important than being historically correct. Anybody with an interest can do some research and invest in period clothing and do quite well in a LARP or reenactment group. It takes considerably more effort to learn a traditional martial art.
@drop bear you're either forgetting or haven't realized something in these sword art threads that can be summed up in one word/acronym: LARPing.
People are asking for advice on what comes down to what is the proper tool for their LARPing activity. If this was LARPing medieval dining and they were asking for a type of fork, your advice of "any pronged fork that holds the meat and gets it into your mouth is sufficient" wouldn't hold water and would get the purists all over your lack of understanding medieval ways. Substitute medieval fork for Japanese sword, and I think you can understand my analogy.
You're discussing "real world" cause and effect, they're discussing LARP.
I'm not trying to be condescending at all to those invested in Japanese swordsmanship. But "the right way" to draw, carry, display, cut, etc. is a IMO a form of LARPing. There are certainly other ways which are demonstrably quite effective (the mat was in fact cut in half without anyone losing a limb, after all), but that doesn't mean it was done "the right way" according to specific Japanese swordsmanship or any other swordsmanship protocol/ traditions.
A $50 sword is not as durable as a $15 machete. The blade is longer and thinner, so even if it were made of the same material, it would be more fragile. Add to that the fact that a $60 sword will still have more expense in the grip, more decoration, and a more expensive scabbard than the machete. Then add in the fact that the machete is actually manufactured for cutting stuff. Most cheap swords are manufactured with the intent that they be put on display, so the steel in them can be absolute crap.There are two arguments that get used that just don't apply. The sword will break. You will stab yourself.
This is not really the case considering mat cutting can be done with a machete by a guy in his back yard.
Now I just find it hard to believe that there is so much reliance on the type of sword rather than development of the skill of the user.
Essentially the argument for correct cutting techniques and thousand dollar swords to me boils down to that is how you want to do it.
And that is fine. But let's not try to make it more than it is. Because then the arguments just become weird and culty.
You're arguing that a sword that's "good enough" doesn't need to be as good as they're claiming it needs to be.Yeah. Look I get that. And have no issue with it. But to learn a skill takes participation. Not a cooler than heck sword or fork.
To participate in a ritual probably needs the right gear. But the argument that I don't like is that the skill set won't be developed with the sightly wrong tool.
That is just elitism.
You're arguing that a sword that's "good enough" doesn't need to be as good as they're claiming it needs to be.
They're arguing "how do you know what 'good enough' is when you haven't actually done it."
There's 3 sides to every story: yours, mine, and the truth.
A $50 sword is not as durable as a $15 machete. The blade is longer and thinner, so even if it were made of the same material, it would be more fragile. Add to that the fact that a $60 sword will still have more expense in the grip, more decoration, and a more expensive scabbard than the machete. Then add in the fact that the machete is actually manufactured for cutting stuff. Most cheap swords are manufactured with the intent that they be put on display, so the steel in them can be absolute crap.