Katana vs Ninja Sword? Whats the best combat sword?
- Thread starter kip42
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Im am starting to train in the Bujikan. I was wondering what the traditional swords were that I might train with. I know the Katana is known as one of the best designs out there but was wondering who if anyone in the Bujikan used a katana. I was under the impression that teh ninjato was the sword of the ninja. I am refering to the one carried most often in the past.
I would like to own a top quality sword that can actually be used to cut stuff like bamboo.
Bruno@MT
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The ninjato was invented by the movie industry. Historically, it didn't exist.
Anyone trying to pass of a ninjato as an authentic weapon should be avoided if you want to learn something authentic.
The whole concept is ridiculous if you think about it. Ninja were supposed to be able to blend in and not be recognized. Carrying around a weapon that would clearly identify you as one would be rather silly.
EDIT: I just noticed that you are one who posted this thread, and several people have already replied that the ninjato as such did not exist.
As for a top quality sword... unless you are rich, you simply can't afford it (and probably would have difficulty finding someone to sell you one even if you did). You can buy a decent sword for a reasonable price though.
Perhaps it's best to ask your instructor what to use or purchase that is suitable for the type of training you do in the class. He should have the proper experience and expertise in your line of training.
Tanaka
Purple Belt
Wasn't there some legit "ninjato" that Hatsumi san spoke about?
He spoke of a saw like sword(shikorogatana), a reverse mounted wakizashi(gyaku ni wakizashi), and a katana with short length blade and katana length handle/saya. Also perhaps some others as well?
Tanaka
Purple Belt
You have started to train in Bujinkan, and have not learned that Bujinkan uses many traditional japanese martial arts systems(not just ninjutsu)?
I would think the head of the school would of explained that on your first visit there. When I went to a Genbukan school the head of the school explained the system to me, and how things worked. I don't know about Bujinkan, but I know in our school you will only be using bokken. Did your teacher tell you that you will be cutting bamboo, or is this your own motive? Because I know many people in here probably won't approve of you cutting with a live katana while just starting out(beginner).
Tanaka, there are a couple of things that have to be borne in mind when dealing with anything to do with Japanese history and mythology.
The first one is that the Japanese are masters at re-writing things when they see fit to make the 'story' they need seem feasible.
The second is that they still have a high reverence for their 'elders'. As such that means that anything Hatsumi sensei says becomes true whether it is or not.
Ordinarily neither of these are a problem, unless you are writing a history book or are trying to find out whether the roots of Ninjutsu have any verifiable depth to them or not
.
Regardless, when it comes to the Ninja-to, to the best of my knowledge it was popularised by a French stage-director in Hollywood in the early C20th.
The first one is that the Japanese are masters at re-writing things when they see fit to make the 'story' they need seem feasible.
The second is that they still have a high reverence for their 'elders'. As such that means that anything Hatsumi sensei says becomes true whether it is or not.
Ordinarily neither of these are a problem, unless you are writing a history book or are trying to find out whether the roots of Ninjutsu have any verifiable depth to them or not
.Regardless, when it comes to the Ninja-to, to the best of my knowledge it was popularised by a French stage-director in Hollywood in the early C20th.
Tanaka
Purple Belt
Well I ask because I've seen very knowledgeable people on the topic support these swords as being ninjato. But the topic of Ninja is always cloudy.
It is indeed, aye :nods vigorously:.
My considered view is that the 'Ninja' are a fiction that became a 'reality' in modern times. The tales of their existence and exploits were tacitly encouraged in historical context because it was politically useful to have a 'class' that could do what samurai were not supposed to (but did when so ordered).
Ninja were Samurai and Samurai were Ninja - the two are one. The 'fancy dress' and 'extraordinary weapons' are given flesh in repeated stories until they become history - in fact most of the clothing and kit attributed to Ninja are straight out of Kabuki theatre.
The Ninja-To in particular was a story-telling prop to distinguish the good guys from the bad guys (in much the same way as one gun or two was used in Western (i.e. Cowboy) films for the same purpose).
Now I am not saying I am 'right' and all must agree with me (and I certainly do not carry the weight of Hatusmi) but that is the core conclusion my studies have drawn me to.
My considered view is that the 'Ninja' are a fiction that became a 'reality' in modern times. The tales of their existence and exploits were tacitly encouraged in historical context because it was politically useful to have a 'class' that could do what samurai were not supposed to (but did when so ordered).
Ninja were Samurai and Samurai were Ninja - the two are one. The 'fancy dress' and 'extraordinary weapons' are given flesh in repeated stories until they become history - in fact most of the clothing and kit attributed to Ninja are straight out of Kabuki theatre.
The Ninja-To in particular was a story-telling prop to distinguish the good guys from the bad guys (in much the same way as one gun or two was used in Western (i.e. Cowboy) films for the same purpose).
Now I am not saying I am 'right' and all must agree with me (and I certainly do not carry the weight of Hatusmi) but that is the core conclusion my studies have drawn me to.
Tanaka
Purple Belt
I agree with some of what you say. But I think it's established Ninja did exist. Figuring out what was fact and not fact is the issue. And unless you're watching a Western Ninja movie, their clothes were just that of typical clothing back then. I'm not sure what fancy clothing you're referring too.
But yes Ninja were samurai.
The thing is Ninja weren't as big a deal as they are made to be in modern times. They were families from a region of Japan.
But yes Ninja were samurai.
The thing is Ninja weren't as big a deal as they are made to be in modern times. They were families from a region of Japan.
Bruno@MT
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Ninja are documented to have existed. There are a couple of surviving books that go in to some depth about them. Shoninki is one of them. However, what did not exist was the ninja as portrayed by the movie industry, stalking around in a black mask with a straight sword, killing hundreds without raising a sweat.
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Kip, I'm going to strongly suggest you re-read my post here (post number 5) as it answers everything you are continuing to ask.
I left a MA school because I was getting the "I have pouch full of throwing stars on me at all times and carry a sword cane when I dont have my katana with me." vibe. I think some of the "kids" in that class were running around thier neighborhoods at night wearing black pajamas.... es muay estrano, no?
Hello Kip,
The discussion of historicity of ninjato, uses of the katana, and various swordsmiths has been covered in depth so I will simply say, 'what they said', though frankly, you are putting the proverbial cart before the horse.
I am not sure at what point kenjutsu is introduced in the Bujinkan system, so it may be quite a while before you get around to sword work at all.
Regardless, when you start out in learning the use of a sword in Japanese martial arts, you start training with either a bokuto (wooden sword) or a shinai (bamboo sword) and likely will do so for quite some time. Some schools will hand you a shinai of the appropriate length for you to use until you have demostrated enough control to allow the use of a bokuto. Bokuto are made in the shape of a katana usually, though straight bladed bokuto are also made, complete with the square tsuba.
Whatever type of sword is used in Bujinkan's curriculum, you are guaranteed to be kept away from a steel weapon for some time. You will train in kumitachi (partnered kata) and do drills and exercises.... again and again.... and again.
If the student gets to a point where the instructor feels that use of a steel blade is warranted, you will not move to a cutting blade, but to a sword (whatever type they use) that has no edge. From here, you will be able to practice the drawing and sheathing of the sword as well as its use while it is out of the sheath.
Your instructor will tell you what sword to buy. Listen to him or her on this matter, as if you show up with one that they do not approve of, you may be told to leave it home and to continue to use the bokuto. If you are planning to buy a sword, ask your instructor first.
Not all sword arts ever get to the point of actual cutting of mats or bamboo. If Bujinkan curriculum does have provisions for this, again, ask your instructor before you go and buy a blade.
Best wishes to you in your training!
Daniel
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Hey Daniel,
Nice post. A few clarifications, if you don't mind.
The Bujinkan and the way it is taught is really up to the individual instructor in question, so it could be the first night, or not for a fair bit longer. Most typically, though, sword (as with most weaponry in the Bujinkan) is taught as an integrated aspect of the overall art of Budo Taijutsu... in other words, it is fairly rare for any Bujinkan school to actually teach "Kenjutsu" at all, at least what would be recognised as Kenjutsu from practitioners of Koryu systems. Instead, it is unarmed combat incorporating the use of weaponry such as sword. Here's a few examples to demonstrate:
[yt]mXOVVn6prrI[/yt] Bujinkan Kenjutsu by Moiche Kastiel, 13th Dan Shihan from Germany.
[yt]Ct_peXVKmsM[/yt] Even labelled here as "Taijutsu", although it exclusively deals with sword here.
[yt]3ifjbeqokKU[/yt] One more here.
Now, to give a contrast, here are a few Koryu clips of Kenjutsu.
[yt]zn-p19C8MAQ[/yt] Yagyu Shinkage Ryu, one of the two official schools of the Tokugawa Shoguns.
[yt]Z7LDXpAohjQ[/yt] Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu, founded by Musashi Miyamoto.
[yt]jScJxtLdIBU[/yt] Ono-ha Itto Ryu, one of the primary sources for modern Kendo.
I do want to point out here, though, that this is not a comment on skill of different people, just on the emphasis and teaching practices of different organisations. But, essentially, for Kenjutsu, the Bujinkan isn't the best idea, Kenjutsu is. But the Bujinkan can give you some training with swords integrated into the entire art that you will study.
For Bujinkan schools, many these days seem to be using fukuro shinai (leather covered shinai), others stick to bokken. It should be noted, though, that it wouldn't be a good idea to just give someone a shinai to begin with, and then switch them to bokken down the track, unless the entire group is being swiched to bokken. The main reason is simply that the bokken will destroy the shinai if much contact is present in the training.
Er, yeah.... people who turn up with such items are gently suggested to not bring such items in again, for fear of being laughed at for many hours at a time.....
The majority of the formal sword techniques in the Bujinkan is taken from the Kukishinden Ryu, and in that the emphasis is on Tachi/Katana. So a regular bokken is perfect. But again, as Kenjutsu is far from the Bujinkan's emphasis, such Koryu forms of training in sword are not the norm. I'm sure there are some Bujinkan members who do, but then there are many who don't. And there are those who "seek out" more formal sword training, but, uh, still don't quite get it, really. Here's an example: http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=89138
Other X-Kans, on the other hand, tend to focus on sword a fair bit more. The main reason is simply the heads of each of the schools, Manaka Sensei has developed his own system based around sword, two sword, and Jutte, known as Jinen Ryu, and Tanemura Sensei's early training included Ono-ha Itto Ryu. In fact, in the Genbukan, you rank seperately in Biken as apart from the unarmed skills.
That will depend on why they are moving to a metal blade, really. If they are moving to it to train tameshigiri, it's going to be a sharp blade. Within the systems, there are some concepts linking Iai to the Shinden Fudo Ryu, although Hatsumi Sensei has stated that there are no techniques for it, and Togakure Ryu has some Iai in it's syllabus, although that is a rather specialised area, and rather different from most other Iai I have come across.
Absolutely!
The Bujinkan doesn't have cutting as part of it's teachings, but then again, it doesn't not have cutting as part of it's teachings... it's down to the instructor as to whether or not they teach it. And as many of the early big names have each stated that they learnt very little sword in Japan (including Steve Hayes and my instructor, by the way), the question will remain who did they learn sword from.... and how well did they learn it?
Nice post. A few clarifications, if you don't mind.
The Bujinkan and the way it is taught is really up to the individual instructor in question, so it could be the first night, or not for a fair bit longer. Most typically, though, sword (as with most weaponry in the Bujinkan) is taught as an integrated aspect of the overall art of Budo Taijutsu... in other words, it is fairly rare for any Bujinkan school to actually teach "Kenjutsu" at all, at least what would be recognised as Kenjutsu from practitioners of Koryu systems. Instead, it is unarmed combat incorporating the use of weaponry such as sword. Here's a few examples to demonstrate:
[yt]mXOVVn6prrI[/yt] Bujinkan Kenjutsu by Moiche Kastiel, 13th Dan Shihan from Germany.
[yt]Ct_peXVKmsM[/yt] Even labelled here as "Taijutsu", although it exclusively deals with sword here.
[yt]3ifjbeqokKU[/yt] One more here.
Now, to give a contrast, here are a few Koryu clips of Kenjutsu.
[yt]zn-p19C8MAQ[/yt] Yagyu Shinkage Ryu, one of the two official schools of the Tokugawa Shoguns.
[yt]Z7LDXpAohjQ[/yt] Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu, founded by Musashi Miyamoto.
[yt]jScJxtLdIBU[/yt] Ono-ha Itto Ryu, one of the primary sources for modern Kendo.
I do want to point out here, though, that this is not a comment on skill of different people, just on the emphasis and teaching practices of different organisations. But, essentially, for Kenjutsu, the Bujinkan isn't the best idea, Kenjutsu is. But the Bujinkan can give you some training with swords integrated into the entire art that you will study.
For Bujinkan schools, many these days seem to be using fukuro shinai (leather covered shinai), others stick to bokken. It should be noted, though, that it wouldn't be a good idea to just give someone a shinai to begin with, and then switch them to bokken down the track, unless the entire group is being swiched to bokken. The main reason is simply that the bokken will destroy the shinai if much contact is present in the training.
Er, yeah.... people who turn up with such items are gently suggested to not bring such items in again, for fear of being laughed at for many hours at a time.....
The majority of the formal sword techniques in the Bujinkan is taken from the Kukishinden Ryu, and in that the emphasis is on Tachi/Katana. So a regular bokken is perfect. But again, as Kenjutsu is far from the Bujinkan's emphasis, such Koryu forms of training in sword are not the norm. I'm sure there are some Bujinkan members who do, but then there are many who don't. And there are those who "seek out" more formal sword training, but, uh, still don't quite get it, really. Here's an example: http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=89138
Other X-Kans, on the other hand, tend to focus on sword a fair bit more. The main reason is simply the heads of each of the schools, Manaka Sensei has developed his own system based around sword, two sword, and Jutte, known as Jinen Ryu, and Tanemura Sensei's early training included Ono-ha Itto Ryu. In fact, in the Genbukan, you rank seperately in Biken as apart from the unarmed skills.
That will depend on why they are moving to a metal blade, really. If they are moving to it to train tameshigiri, it's going to be a sharp blade. Within the systems, there are some concepts linking Iai to the Shinden Fudo Ryu, although Hatsumi Sensei has stated that there are no techniques for it, and Togakure Ryu has some Iai in it's syllabus, although that is a rather specialised area, and rather different from most other Iai I have come across.
Absolutely!
The Bujinkan doesn't have cutting as part of it's teachings, but then again, it doesn't not have cutting as part of it's teachings... it's down to the instructor as to whether or not they teach it. And as many of the early big names have each stated that they learnt very little sword in Japan (including Steve Hayes and my instructor, by the way), the question will remain who did they learn sword from.... and how well did they learn it?
Much appreciated!
Daniel
Daniel
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