Website on Katanas

[pgsmith]

Perhaps because... as has been repeated to you ad nauseum, "cutting" is not an activity which needs "starter equipment"???

I'm just going to assume at this point that you are in fact trolling, and leave you to it.

The whole site has become much more enjoyable since I started making use of the ignore feature.

 

[Flying Crane]

The whole site has become much more enjoyable since I started making use of the ignore feature.

A-yup.

 

[drop bear]

Not really. That analogy assumes they cannot cut without the shinken their instructor recommends (not provides - a different thing). Sword arts are apparently pretty specific and detailed in their differences. I would assume a different shinken - even one that is of good quality - might be ill-suited to a particular style for some reasons. I'd liken it to firearm training. If the instructor is teaching how to effectively fire a lever-action rifle, and you have a bolt-action rifle, you're in the wrong class (or just brought the wrong tool). Again, since the tradition, itself, is part of the reason people train these styles, continuing that tradition seems an important factor.

If someone wanted to teach a generic Japanese swordsmanship class, just focused on drawing the blade and cutting things, that would be a different matter. They'd still need to make sure they were using a quality tool that won't fall apart and has a reasonably proper balance, etc., but they would have a wider range to choose from. Heck, they might even find some modernizations that would fit well with that idea, and might be interested in evolving both the weapon and the usage. I'm not sure why anyone would be much interested in that, though, since it wouldn't actually be more practical than the traditional styles, since none of us are allowed to carry those swords, anyway.

Correct. So I am viewing as a practical skill rather than a ritual one.

My confusion is that it is explained as a practial skill. In that sword safety, effective technique and the ability of the tool to do the job well.

Hence things like if you use the wrong axe you are fighting against yourself a bit.

Now. I have no issue with people demanding for themselves that these precise set of curcumstances be adheared to. In the same way If someone wants to box with a set of cleto's more power to them.

But the idea that this could not be done without this absolute exact set of curcumstances just does not seem very likley to me.

 

[drop bear]

[

What do you mean, there is no suitable equipment??

Well Brendan mentioned that a whole list of options has been shown so mabye I was wrong. But imagine this was any other activity. Say tennis. And I go to a tennis coach and ask "which raquet should I get?"

And generally you would get the advice that there are raquets you should not get, Raquets that are the ducks nuts and something about suitable in between,

This never seems to happen with swords. There is no pinned down sutable sword exept what you are told to get from your instructor.

So the answer for photon guys question is shut the hell up and get what you are told.

Which would not be considered suitable advice in any other curcumstance.

 

[drop bear]

There is no suitable equipment for what?

The OP has received extensive advice regarding equipment. I have provided links to two reputable suppliers.

Do you mean there is no suitable equipment for cutting? Well, there is - Hyoho posted a picture of some above. It just has almost nothing to do with swordsmanship - and therefore this thread.

You are correct - this is not a normal discussion. Most normal discussions are coherent and logical. It becomes difficult when the ability of some parties to comprehend the language seems to be limited.

So. so far you are the only person who has actually dropped a link on a sword.

Hyoho showed a photo of a parang.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

[


Well Brendan mentioned that a whole list of options has been shown so mabye I was wrong. But imagine this was any other activity. Say tennis. And I go to a tennis coach and ask "which raquet should I get?"

And generally you would get the advice that there are raquets you should not get, Raquets that are the ducks nuts and something about suitable in between,

This never seems to happen with swords. There is no pinned down sutable sword exept what you are told to get from your instructor.

So the answer for photon guys question is shut the hell up and get what you are told.

Which would not be considered suitable advice in any other curcumstance.

It is fairly picky, and I think that comes from two points. First, there is a lot of tradition (like if you were going to play tennis at a high skill level with wooden raquets. Those would be hard to find, and harder to find a good one (so you only have to buy once, and you're going to start with a fiberglass version to learn some basics). Second, a safety factor. Assume those wooden traquets - at least the poorly built ones - sometimes came apart on a hard smash, sending bits at your opponent, the referee, etc.

 

[drop bear]

It is fairly picky, and I think that comes from two points. First, there is a lot of tradition (like if you were going to play tennis at a high skill level with wooden raquets. Those would be hard to find, and harder to find a good one (so you only have to buy once, and you're going to start with a fiberglass version to learn some basics). Second, a safety factor. Assume those wooden traquets - at least the poorly built ones - sometimes came apart on a hard smash, sending bits at your opponent, the referee, etc.

Yeah. But there would still be a viable option from the people who know what they are on about.

This seems more like the karate belt issue. Where you have to spot for a $300 belt for it to be valid.

It think it is more about elitism than function.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yeah. But there would still be a viable option from the people who know what they are on about.

This seems more like the karate belt issue. Where you have to spot for a $300 belt for it to be valid.

It think it is more about elitism than function.

I agree it doesn't seem entirely about functionality, but neither is training in swordsmanship. There are holdover traditions and attitudes that some folks enjoy having as part of their training.

 

[drop bear]

I agree it doesn't seem entirely about functionality, but neither is training in swordsmanship. There are holdover traditions and attitudes that some folks enjoy having as part of their training.

And that is fine. But why do these holdover traditions effect other systems?

I can't see a reason why if a system wants to venture out and design a cheaper iado they couldn't. But I am starting to believe they just would not be allowed to.

Which by the way they seemed to do with the kyokushin gear I mentioned.

Official Isami Kyokushin Belts Gis | ChokeSports.com

 

[BrendanF]

I can't see a reason why if a system wants to venture out and design a cheaper iado they couldn't. But I am starting to believe they just would not be allowed to.

Uh - they can. Earlier in this thread there was mention of a $50 or $60 "1045 carbon steel" iaito.

However - given that the OP (presumably) plans on spending years training, drawing and cutting with this sword thousands upon thousands of times.. buying a cheap, poorly constructed iaito for fifty bucks is never going to provide the fit, finish and balance that a purpose-built, expertly made iaito will... and he will regret the purchase.

While iaito can become expensive (my first was around 2K IIRC) - they can also be had relatively cheap. The last iaito I got was more like 600-700. One made to the same standards (ie the same production line), without leather ito, extra width or length, can be had for 200-300.

While you may not understand - if you had spent thousands upon thousands of hours drawing, cutting and re-sheathing Japanese style swords you would be able to tell the difference between the two at a glance.

 

[drop bear]

Uh - they can. Earlier in this thread there was mention of a $50 or $60 "1045 carbon steel" iaito.

However - given that the OP (presumably) plans on spending years training, drawing and cutting with this sword thousands upon thousands of times.. buying a cheap, poorly constructed iaito for fifty bucks is never going to provide the fit, finish and balance that a purpose-built, expertly made iaito will... and he will regret the purchase.

While iaito can become expensive (my first was around 2K IIRC) - they can also be had relatively cheap. The last iaito I got was more like 600-700. One made to the same standards (ie the same production line), without leather ito, extra width or length, can be had for 200-300.

While you may not understand - if you had spent thousands upon thousands of hours drawing, cutting and re-sheathing Japanese style swords you would be able to tell the difference between the two at a glance.

Depends what he is training with now.

 

[BrendanF]

Yep - totally depends...

Oh wait, no, no it doesn't. Dear lord, almost got sucked into the wormhole of craziness your posts seem to emerge from.

He has stated what he is training with now... you know, back on the first page of the thread - the one you didn't read?

Ignored - thanks for the tip, Paul!

 

[drop bear]

Yep - totally depends...

Oh wait, no, no it doesn't. Dear lord, almost got sucked into the wormhole of craziness your posts seem to emerge from.

He has stated what he is training with now... you know, back on the first page of the thread - the one you didn't read?

Ignored - thanks for the tip, Paul!

Have fun with your echo chamber.

 

[Hyoho]

double post

 

[Hyoho]

There is no suitable equipment for what?

The OP has received extensive advice regarding equipment. I have provided links to two reputable suppliers.

Do you mean there is no suitable equipment for cutting? Well, there is - Hyoho posted a picture of some above. It just has almost nothing to do with swordsmanship - and therefore this thread.

You are correct - this is not a normal discussion. Most normal discussions are coherent and logical. It becomes difficult when the ability of some parties to comprehend the language seems to be limited.

What I did neglect to say is that I have also used Japanese blades to do heavy duty cutting to make comparisons. Sadly I have to say that it was complete waste of time.

 

[Hyoho]

I am sure I posted before but Sword work has become so detailed is has become faceted.

Fencing skills - Kendo

Skills with mostly wooden weapons of classical arts (kobujutsu) wearing little of no protection - Kenjutsu.

Classical waza or more modern made up kata useing an unsharpened blades. Experienced practitioners upgrade to live blades - Iaido/Iaijutsu.

The practice of Kobujutsu using live blades only. This can include tameshigiri or test cutting of targets to test the skill of both practitoner and blade - Battojutsu.

This of course means that if you have nanadan (7th Dan) in one art you cannnot be good at the others. You have to practice more than one or all to do that.

I did not include backyard slashers. Any numpty can pick up a sharp blade and hack away with just an hours practice. This NOT M.A. and has no place on this forum. M.A. means "Martial ART"

 

[Hyoho]

There seems to be a lack of awareness that a blade made for iado and blades made for cutting are different. An iai shinken is a fairly light weapon. One forged for cutting has what is called niku (meaty). It also has a half polish so it bites in as one cuts

The one in the pic is a 3.8 with half polish.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I am sure I posted before but Sword work has become so detailed is has become faceted.

Fencing skills - Kendo

Skills with mostly wooden weapons of classical arts (kobujutsu) wearing little of no protection - Kenjutsu.

Classical waza or more modern made up kata useing an unsharpened blades. Experienced practitioners upgrade to live blades - Iaido/Iaijutsu.

The practice of Kobujutsu using live blades only. This can include tameshigiri or test cutting of targets to test the skill of both practitoner and blade - Battojutsu.

This of course means that if you have nanadan (7th Dan) in one art you cannnot be good at the others. You have to practice more than one or all to do that.

I did not include backyard slashers. Any numpty can pick up a sharp blade and hack away with just an hours practice. This NOT M.A. and has no place on this forum. M.A. means "Martial ART"

I'm curious if you're aware of any organized group that isn't so faceted (I like that term), where they cover some of all of this, as I expect "some of all" would be a reasonably complete (but less in-depth) training in swordsmanship.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

And that is fine. But why do these holdover traditions effect other systems?

I can't see a reason why if a system wants to venture out and design a cheaper iado they couldn't. But I am starting to believe they just would not be allowed to.

Which by the way they seemed to do with the kyokushin gear I mentioned.

Official Isami Kyokushin Belts Gis | ChokeSports.com

I don't think there would be anything to stop a person or organization from doing that. I think the issue is that there's not much practical use for a sword these days, so only those training in traditional fighting are much interested in good swords, and they prefer the traditional approach. If someone with sufficient skill wanted to evolve the design and production of swords, they could surely do so (nothing is ever perfect) - I'm just not sure where they'd find enough interest to produce it in quantity for what it would likely still cost. Those who want good-looking costume swords, or something that can cut but doesn't fit tradition, have cheap options already.

 

[Karasu]

I'm curious if you're aware of any organized group that isn't so faceted (I like that term), where they cover some of all of this, as I expect "some of all" would be a reasonably complete (but less in-depth) training in swordsmanship.

The Hokushin Ittō-Ryū Hyōhō for example.
Wikipedia link

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The Hokushin Ittō-Ryū Hyōhō for example.
Wikipedia link

Thanks!

 

[pgsmith]

I'm curious if you're aware of any organized group that isn't so faceted (I like that term), where they cover some of all of this, as I expect "some of all" would be a reasonably complete (but less in-depth) training in swordsmanship.

There are still quite a number of koryu schools in existence. Most of these, at one time, had very complete curriculums (sogo bujutsu) because a great many of them were originally taught to regional fiefs and clans as the methodology that their retainers would use to fight. However, as the need for professional warriors waned, the need to do other things for a living intruded. If you are forced to spend the majority of your time working a job rather than practicing your training, then it cuts down drastically on the amount you can master and pass on to the next generation. Most of the old koryu have lost a lot of their techniques and knowledge, or have died out completely. This is the reason that most schools today focus on one or two particular facets of the arts.

The one in the pic is a 3.8 with half polish.

I've always wondered how you transported those monsters when you travel for seminars and such. It's not like they'll fit in any ready-made case like a more normal sized sword.