Weapons

[aarong]

I was just wondering how many of you train with weapons in TSD?

My club was originally a member of the UK Tang Soo Do Federation headed by KJN Kang Uk Lee. We broke away from him in around 2000.

As a club we have never trained with weapons.

Since we became members of the EMTF headed by KJN P Salm I've noticed that a large percentage of clubs train with weapons.

As i said before i was wondering how many of you trained with weapons?

Also if anyone knows when people in TSD started training with weapons?

Who first started it?

and if any one knows why?

any info would be great

Aaron

 

[Lynne]

We train with the staff (Bo) beginning at Il Gup; A Bo form is required material for our Cho Dan test.

After Bo, we learn Sai, then Sword.

I know that a few (very few) people in my dojang are skilled in two different types of nunchukas.

I can't answer your other questions though. It would be interesting to know the history.

 

[MBuzzy]

The "parent" organization, or at least GM Hwang Kee's version of it, is a weapon-less or empty handed style. The US Soo Bahk Do and for that matter, the World Moo Duk Kwan is completely weaponless. Therefore, we practice no offensive weapons whatsoever, but we do practice weapons defense.

 

[Jimi]

I would like to know what are the two different kinds of NUNCHUKA (NUNCHAKU)? My first instructor was Sensei Randy Wozin (Now deceased) who held Black Belts in both Okinawan (Karate/Kobudo) as well as Korean (Tang Soo Do/Moo Duk Kwan) arts & who won the East Coast Regional Weapons Grand Championship in 1975 at the Capital Center near DC demonstrating a double Nunchaku Kata. I have issue with people training in empty hand arts who pick up a movie weapon flashy techniques without true training in the base art, then such NUMCHUCK skills are now thrown around in Korean MA studios. I do not see the Sai, Nunchaku, Tonfa or Kama as a Korean weapon. Those in Korean arts ( I hold a 3rd Dan in TKD myself) that train such weapons have picked it up from some associate in the MA community, so such Ninja Turtle Weapons are now more common in Korean Arts Studios. I do see, acknowledge & respect the Korean Art (KUMDO) as a Swordsmanship art as well as the use of Bo Staff. That I have no Issue with. Not attacking you Lynne, but this strikes a nerve with me. Weapon skills are great when trained in the art of origin, when someone certified only in TKD professes to instruct Kobudo weapons, I see a problem. If your Instructor holds rank in another system as well which has the weapons lineage, that's ok. I was just floored by the statement, two different kinda of NUNCHAKAS. Okinawan Nunchaku, Filipino Toyok or different chain/cord lengths? Please advise. I hope you understand that I am very sensitive to the Okinawan Weapons being trained with-in a TKD,TSD,MDK curriculum.

 

[MBuzzy]

I most certainly agree that TSD/SBD was originally intended to be an Empty Handed style and therefore any weapons that are practiced have been brought in from outside sources.

But.....There are many Korean weapons. There are even some okinawan weapons that were traditionally used in Korea. The majority of the text of the Muydobo Tongji is based on traditional weapons. Granted, most of those are either sword or some sort of staff or flail weapon, which you don't see much of in today's martial arts. But weapons such as Sai, Nunchaku, and tonfa were used in Korea, even if it was because of a heavy Okinawan/Japanese influence during the occupation. Many of those weapons were simply farming implements used to fight with. A Kama is the perfect example...it is a farming sickle. The tonfa was the handle of a millstone, nunchaku are flails used for threshing rice and soy. The Staff, a walking stick. Very popular in some KMAs such as Hapkido, the cane....which is quite obvious what it is. My point is that these things being used as weapons is not a big stretch for ANY country. Although the Kobudo has the market cornered on weapons martial arts and training Granted, because of their popularity and exposure in movies, we still use the Japanese names.

And as for the weapons coming in from Okinawa....most of these weapons are thought to have come from China anyway - the Okinawans just perfected them. So while I have no problem with weapons training (especially since I'm also a Haidong Gumdo practitioner), I do feel that if it is going to be done within TSD or SBD, it should be kept separate to a point and it should be passed along that weapons ARE NOT traditional TSD. Of course, more and more schools have them, so they may be becoming a tradition. At what point do the founder's intentions pass from intentions to forgotten?

 

[LarryR]

I'm not much on the history of weapons in TSD, however we do practice several. First the staff, short stick, the cane, the knife, the nunchucks, then lastly the sword.

We practice defenses MT hands against most of the above weapons. At the intermediate levels we practice weapons defense against weapons, ( staff vs staff for ex. ), and at the advanced levels weapon vs weapon (stick vs staff and knife vs stick & staff ).

I know that the Japanes and Chinese have a great influnece in the weapons we train today. Depending on who you are trained by will determine which cultural influence is the greatest. Back in the 90s I had the opportunity to train in Kong Jung Mu Sul (Royal Court Martial Arts). You definetly see the chinese influence in the forms.

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

We practice bong hyung, as well as defense against knife, sword, and gun, but that's the extent of our weapons training.

 

[Jimi]

I understand that weapons similar to Okinawan weapons may exist in Korean Arts & their history as well as other arts, but to use Nunchaku as a weapons name surely confusses the untrained. Saying that Nunchaku can still be a Korean weapon removes Korean Culture by calling it by an Okinawan Term. No doubt Korean Arts have weapons skills (Just not the ones known by Korean history & language as a hand/foot art), but when called by another arts language, this does not give it validity as the Korean Art of the NUNCHAKU. For years I have seen Korean instructors by nationality sternly scold people for calling Tae Kwon Do (Or TSD, MDK) Korean Karate, then to see people claiming a Korean empty hand system as their base of rank training with Kama, Sai, Tonfa, NUNCHAKU, is not quite right in my book. Its like saying that the Korean Art of serving Sushi is of Korean Origin because they have learned to serve it well while occupied by the Japanese. Its still barrowing. If an art has the heritage to such a long standing Korean history & terminology (Pre Korean War Era) with an art calling such a weapon (SAI what have you) by its true Korean heritage name & its Mother Art, then I have no issue with it. Its the I train in TSD etc (Insert korean emty hand art) so that validifies my Kama (Or other weapons) skills, that gets me. I just dont feel that instructor rank in an empty hand art qualifies someone to teach weapons because the flashy NUNCHAKU skills are so common in MAs nowwa days, yet people who teach these tournament weapons forms do not understand proper blocking, counter striking etc...(Trained Okinawan Weapons VS. a Shinai til my knuckles were purple) to me this is not right. When Korean History shows us a Korean Art with a long standing system of these (Okinawan) weapons using Korean language & history, then I have no problem. I would even hail the long lost art of the Korean Flail (NUNCHAKU) skills. Til then someone in a Korean empty hand art training with Okinawan Weapons using Okinawan Terminlogy is not doing these weapons skills justice.
Japanese Swordsmanship = Kendo, Kenjutsu, Iaido- Fine
Korean Swordsmanship= Kumdo-Fine
Japanese Grappling=Judo, Jujutsu-Fine
Korean Grappling=Yudo-Fine
Korean Emptyhand Weapons= Nunchaku, Sai, Tonfa, Kama- I can't agree

 

[Yossarian]

I can tell you the weapon history for my club and a few others in the EMTF. Im from a WTSDA lineage and GM Shin introduced bong, knife and sword forms. It was either himself or some of his students that created them, the sword forms look like they are influenced by those found in Kuk Sool Won. There are other weapon forms used by various EMTF clubs that were created by senior ranks eg Nunchaku. These forms were created for competition and as far as I know combat aplications are rarely taught. They are mainly for fun and to give students an extra catagory to enter at comps.

Were you at the EMTF British champs at St Ives this year?

 

[MBuzzy]

I understand that weapons similar to Okinawan weapons may exist in Korean Arts & their history as well as other arts, but to use Nunchaku as a weapons name surely confusses the untrained. Saying that Nunchaku can still be a Korean weapon removes Korean Culture by calling it by an Okinawan Term. No doubt Korean Arts have weapons skills (Just not the ones known by Korean history & language as a hand/foot art), but when called by another arts language, this does not give it validity as the Korean Art of the NUNCHAKU. For years I have seen Korean instructors by nationality sternly scold people for calling Tae Kwon Do (Or TSD, MDK) Korean Karate, then to see people claiming a Korean empty hand system as their base of rank training with Kama, Sai, Tonfa, NUNCHAKU, is not quite right in my book. Its like saying that the Korean Art of serving Sushi is of Korean Origin because they have learned to serve it well while occupied by the Japanese. Its still barrowing. If an art has the heritage to such a long standing Korean history & terminology (Pre Korean War Era) with an art calling such a weapon (SAI what have you) by its true Korean heritage name & its Mother Art, then I have no issue with it. Its the I train in TSD etc (Insert korean emty hand art) so that validifies my Kama (Or other weapons) skills, that gets me. I just dont feel that instructor rank in an empty hand art qualifies someone to teach weapons because the flashy NUNCHAKU skills are so common in MAs nowwa days, yet people who teach these tournament weapons forms do not understand proper blocking, counter striking etc...(Trained Okinawan Weapons VS. a Shinai til my knuckles were purple) to me this is not right. When Korean History shows us a Korean Art with a long standing system of these (Okinawan) weapons using Korean language & history, then I have no problem. I would even hail the long lost art of the Korean Flail (NUNCHAKU) skills. Til then someone in a Korean empty hand art training with Okinawan Weapons using Okinawan Terminlogy is not doing these weapons skills justice.
Japanese Swordsmanship = Kendo, Kenjutsu, Iaido- Fine
Korean Swordsmanship= Kumdo-Fine
Japanese Grappling=Judo, Jujutsu-Fine
Korean Grappling=Yudo-Fine
Korean Emptyhand Weapons= Nunchaku, Sai, Tonfa, Kama- I can't agree

This is an EXCELLENT point!! And I agree 100%. I feel that we have been sucked into commercialism. If we start offering Gum or Bong classes, no one would know what they was....but if you say Katana and Bo, then Ninja Turtle fans come running!

While I feel that TSD specifically should not have weapons included in a traditional study, if they do want to offer weapons, that is fine...but it should be with the understanding that those weapons are not indigenous to the style. On top of that, if you are going to use them, EITHER use English (which is fine) or the proper Korean.

English - Japanese - Korean
Sword - Katana - Gum
Staff - Bo - Bong
Nunchucks - Nunchaku - Ssang chul bong or Ee chul bong
Knife - Tanto - Dando
Long dagger - Sai - Jang dando
Sickle - Kama - Nat
Handle - Tonfa - Charu

While I doubt that anyone will start using the proper names in the near future, they are out there....but it is quite obvious that any Korean Martial Arts School that teaches a weapons and calls it by its Okinawan name, is OBVIOUSLY not teaching a Korean weapon style. You can import the weapon and the usage, but at least "Koreanize" it. I would have no problem with using the English names either.

 

[CDKJudoka]

They teach 3 main weapons at our dojang, Dan Bong, Jang Bong, and Haidong Gum Do. There are other weapons taught, but more on a seminar basis, and those are Kama, Sai, Nunchaku, and Chinese Fans, for our Master's Club. Yeah, it's a little McDojangish, but I learned some good forms from the people teaching, and they aren't TKD stylists.

 

[MBuzzy]

They teach 3 main weapons at our dojang, Dan Bong, Jang Bong, and Haidong Gum Do. There are other weapons taught, but more on a seminar basis, and those are Kama, Sai, Nunchaku, and Chinese Fans, for our Master's Club. Yeah, it's a little McDojangish, but I learned some good forms from the people teaching, and they aren't TKD stylists.

I'm curious if they ever teach those weapons under the "guise" of being Korean? Or if they are straightforward that they are Chinese, Okinawan or Japanese?

 

[Jimi]

MBuzzy, Very well said. I love your inclusion of the Korean Weapons Korean terms. That I Love! I have no doubt that Korean arts have a fail weapons skills, also even weapons cousin to Sai, Tonfa, Kama etc... The line where this distinct divide has blurred has bothered me. This clear understanding of what is Korean by name & history & what is Okinawan by name & history helps a great deal. I do not wish to be seen as a Korean arts basher, (Started in the Okinawa/Korean Karate Association) so people thought of TKD,TSD & MDK etc were Korean Karate, I wish people to see it more clearly. Just tired of meeting people saying I don't have a Black Belt in Karate,TKD etc, but my Brother is a Black Belt in NUMCHUKS. That kind of mis-information & the people who have not truely trained in these weapons but can twirl them like a MAJORETTE and jump spin kick then back flip for a WEAPONS GRANDCHAMPIONSHIP that adds to the confusion. A true Korean Weapons Art is something to behold no doubt. But others who borrow NUNCHAKU flippies, KAMA twirls and skills not in there art etc... Do there Korean base art no justice. I for one would like to see more light shed on the subject of Korean Weapons Arts that do not just say the occupation by the Japanese gave us this in our curriculum. Many Korean Systems had been working on Re-Identifying their Arts as Korean not a reflection of Japanese arts. MBuzzy, You have made my day, cause I usually get someone agrueing that their NUNCHAKU skills were taught by Korean Granmaster (Insert GM) so and so in Korea, that makes it a Korean Weapon. PEACE JIMI

 

[CDKJudoka]

I'm curious if they ever teach those weapons under the "guise" of being Korean? Or if they are straightforward that they are Chinese, Okinawan or Japanese?

They are very straight forward as to the origin of the weapons. They even make note that our style is derived from Shotokan.

 

[miguksaram]

Therefore, we practice no offensive weapons whatsoever, but we do practice weapons defense.

Sir,

I am wondering what you mean by weapon defense? What weapons do you defend against? Also, if you don't practice weapons how do you practice practical defense against them? Please don't be offended by this question as it is not meant to be a jab I am just curious to the philosophy of your school on this subject.

 

[hkfuie]

Jimi,

I train in TKD and some people I know still call it Korean Karate. I am not sure I understand your post where you refer to this. Are you saying you have an issue with people referring to TKD, TSD & MDK as Korean Karate? Why?

Just curious.

My school has no weapons and while I understand your feelings on the matter, do you think you can stop people from thinking those flashy aluminum weapons they twirl is martial arts as we think of it? No matter how many times you educate, there will be millions more who crow over their kid's wonderful wind whistling flowers and all the aerial karate they did at the last tournament.

My point is not to be contrary or negate at all what you are saying. I think I understand where you are coming from and agree. Please tell me more about the Korean Karate issue.

 

[MBuzzy]

Sir,

I am wondering what you mean by weapon defense? What weapons do you defend against? Also, if you don't practice weapons how do you practice practical defense against them? Please don't be offended by this question as it is not meant to be a jab I am just curious to the philosophy of your school on this subject.

No offense taken whatsoever. The standard Soo Bahk Do curriculum includes dando defense at Cho Dan (testing for Ee Dan) and Bong defense at Ee Dan (testing for Sam Dan). I basically mean standardized sets of ho sin sul against those weapons types. I believe that there may be more sets at Sa Dan and above, but I'm not sure. I have heard of other organizations that have sets of gum and chong defense. But we don't do either of those at least below Sa Dan level and not standardized. I have, of course attended seminars and been to classes that have covered sword and gun defense (although I have to say that anyone trying to defend against those weapons empty handed deserves what they get ).

As for practicing practical defense against them....I honestly believe that is a bigger discussion and probably worthy of a new thread!

 

[MBuzzy]

Jimi,

I train in TKD and some people I know still call it Korean Karate. I am not sure I understand your post where you refer to this. Are you saying you have an issue with people referring to TKD, TSD & MDK as Korean Karate? Why?

Just curious.

My school has no weapons and while I understand your feelings on the matter, do you think you can stop people from thinking those flashy aluminum weapons they twirl is martial arts as we think of it? No matter how many times you educate, there will be millions more who crow over their kid's wonderful wind whistling flowers and all the aerial karate they did at the last tournament.

My point is not to be contrary or negate at all what you are saying. I think I understand where you are coming from and agree. Please tell me more about the Korean Karate issue.

Not to butt in, but I can add that IN KOREA, many Koreans still refer to TKD, TSD, HPD, etc as "Korean Karate." It is used as a general term there, much like it is used here. While I don't philosophically agree with calling it "Karate" since that is a Japanese term (especially with the hatred and resentment that many older Koreans still feel toward the Japanese), I admit that I do still do it every once in a while when talking to someone who doesn't know what TSD is. It is an easy way to get your meaning across and nothing more.

But then....there are plenty of books out there titled simply "Korean Karate" (Henry Cho's for example). Doesn't make it technically or philosophically correct....it is just done that way for a lot of people.

There was also a thread here recently that discussed this a bit. There is a historical basis in calling it Korean Karate in America. There has always been a "standard term" for martial arts in the US. For years, it was Judo, for many more years, it was Karate, Tae Kwon Do is growing in popularity. Those terms that the general public uses, regardless of style, to describe martial arts in General. When many of the TSD, TKD, HPD, HRD, etc schools originally opened, "Karate" was the popular term at the time....hence, Korean Karate. It is what people knew and it is a great marketing term. The average joe off the street couldn't care less what style it is....they just want some kind of Martial Arts. For many people, it will be years into their training before they TRULY have an appreciation for the differences between styles.

 

[Jimi]

It is my personal experience hkfuie, that many Koreans I have trained with (Some in other arts such a JF/JKD Silat, Kali etc...) & their Korean families dislike calling Korean Arts KOREAN KARATE. I have had other Korean Instructors Scold me for refering to a Tae Kwon Do School as Korean Karate even when the Schools' name is "Kim's Karate". The School name was also known as Master Jae Kim's Tae Kwon Do Institute, but for business advertizing reasons, Jae Kim himself called it "Karate" for the Martial Arts recognition because people didn't know what TKD was. I myself have no real issue with it, although I have been in between Koreans complaining of each others Dan level, Forms & the name of the arts taught in their school. If you have been corrected by an empassioned Korean Instructor not to use the term KOREAN KARATE, you tend to hold to that correction. In your TKD, do you call your instructor "Sensei" or "Sa Bum Nim" or "Sa Sang Nim"? This was serious issue with some Koreans agrueing against each others businesses, & one thing I have learned is to stay out from between bickering businessmen. I was simply pointing out that there is Japanese culture crossover in some Korean Arts training that mostly Koreans have issue with. I have just seen the stern attitude against the term. Also , No I do not think I can stop people from thinking those flashy aluminum weapons they twirl is martial arts as we think of it, although I do think those who know better should speak up, even though more convaluted info will keep most from seeing the truth. If my post sounded as if I have issue with people using the term KOREAN KARATE, Please re-read, I never mentioned where I have issue with it, just where its' issue for some Koreans. Does this shed any light on my intended comment hkfuie? I hope so. JIMI

 

[DMcHenry]

Prior to the name TaeKwonDo being decided on, the common terms in use were KongSooDo & TangSooDo, both Korean pronunciations for Karate-Do.

My first TKD school had "Korean Karate" very prominently displayed in huge letters above it. It was pretty standard at the time. And I agree what was said above, "Karate" has become a pretty generic term for kick/punch martial arts. I see TangSooDo & TaeKwonDo dojangs display KARATE outside. Only once you go up to see what it is do you find out it's not a Japanese dojo.