Weapon reliance - academic discussion

[pdg]

you post here says person A confronts person B....with a possible threat. but then you add on "like a mugging showing a weapon" well those two statements are incompatible. a mugging with a weapon IS a threat,

They're not incompatible, they can be stage one and stage two.

I have no data to support this, but I don't think many mugging type scenarios start with the assailant approaching from across the street displaying a weapon.

So, they approach under a pretext - does taking a defensive stance off the bat (before any actual threat has been identified) put you at a possible disadvantage? Like you've extended your arm, other arm is hovering near weapon - do those signals possibly contribute to escalation?

Mix it up a bit...

I'm lost, I approach someone to ask directions and they respond to my approach by sticking their arm toward my face and reaching behind their back - damn, that bloke looks like he's going to attack me for being lost, better defend myself


(Yeah, thread wander, I'm fine with that)

 

[hoshin1600]

I have no data to support this, but I don't think many mugging type scenarios start with the assailant approaching from across the street displaying a weapon.

your right most times they wouldnt do that, but many will stand there talking on a cell phone to blend in and when you walk by they will attack via an ambush. a very large portion of violent attacks happen as an ambush either with a distraction like standing talking on a cell phone or through a transitional space were they have concealment until the last second.
what you presented earlier is called an interview. the mugger asks for the time. this is not to get close to you it is to evaluate you as a target. did you look at your watch? how expensive is that watch? did your demeanor indicate you as an easy target?
BTW, i dont advocate

sticking their arm toward my face and reaching behind their back

 

[pdg]

your right most times they wouldnt do that, but many will stand there talking on a cell phone to blend in and when you walk by they will attack via an ambush. a very large portion of violent attacks happen as an ambush either with a distraction like standing talking on a cell phone or through a transitional space were they have concealment until the last second.
what you presented earlier is called an interview. the mugger asks for the time. this is not to get close to you it is to evaluate you as a target. did you look at your watch? how expensive is that watch? did your demeanor indicate you as an easy target?

I'll be fine then, I don't wear a watch


But that makes sense, the different approaches.

Using that sort of thing - the ambush.

Would carrying a defensive weapon (irrespective of level of training with said weapon) open you to different attacks while you're reaching for it?

That's somewhat negated if you're trained to use it as a last resort, following empty hand type stuff.

But for the (relatively) untrained (or those only trained with that weapon) is a possible successful empty hand defence that would allow "run away" stymied by taking an arm out if commission?

 

[drop bear]

See that's quite interesting, you actively avoided any possible weaponry, assumedly having confidence in the weapons biologically attached to your torso

Most fights don't warrant a weapon. Why create a fight that does?

That way if I loose. I just get bashed. Not killed.

 

[drop bear]

Aiming to leave the legal and social ramifications to the myriad other threads on those particular subjects...



Kind of like that, but not an open carry for work - more a civilian with a knife in a pocket, or a gun in a waistband or ankle, or either in a bag...

Quick draw from the hip, is that the 18/21/30 foot rule? What's the distance if it's under layers of clothing or otherwise not immediately in your hand?

I suppose I'm pondering whether having the psychology of holding detracts from empty hand defences.

As a civilian, what's the likelihood you'll know that a mugger (or similar) is what they are before they're right in your face?

You should be able to punch a guy in the head more quickly than you can draw a weapon.

 

[drop bear]

@pdg
what you are asking is a deeper level of analysis. but to really do this you need more context and it is the context that matters.
example.
is the sky blue?

1. yes the sky is blue
2. well not always sometimes it is gray or red or even pink.
3. the atmosphere is not really colored. space is black. light waves reflect off of the ocean and bounce back into the atmosphere and reflect to us as a perceived blue.

the question your asking is going to be based on the individual and what their day to day reality is. you would also have to begin to define between a bar fight (competitive dominance) VS pure malevolence where this person just wants to destroy you because you exist or violence as a means to attain your possessions and how much the individual values his stuff. it opens up a lot of contextual questions that need to be answered first.


simple answer , if you train properly you have trained to know when to use it and when to retain it and go with hand to hand or deescalation.

In which case you should be able to break down the circumstances where you would and wouldn't engage. And where you would and wouldn't go for a weapon.

 

[drop bear]

They're not incompatible, they can be stage one and stage two.

I have no data to support this, but I don't think many mugging type scenarios start with the assailant approaching from across the street displaying a weapon.

So, they approach under a pretext - does taking a defensive stance off the bat (before any actual threat has been identified) put you at a possible disadvantage? Like you've extended your arm, other arm is hovering near weapon - do those signals possibly contribute to escalation?

Mix it up a bit...

I'm lost, I approach someone to ask directions and they respond to my approach by sticking their arm toward my face and reaching behind their back - damn, that bloke looks like he's going to attack me for being lost, better defend myself


(Yeah, thread wander, I'm fine with that)

So you wouldn't just take a backwards step and deescalate?

 

[Buka]

It probably still happens, but the whole "a guy walks up to you asking for the time" thing for mugging someone seems as likely to me as a guy asking you if you want to buy the Brooklyn bridge. [and, yes, I still have that damn deed]

I think the only people approached that way for mugging are likely to get approached/mugged in any and all ways. And although not really applicable in this thread, but as brief humorous relief - a buddy of mine was approached with "can you tell me the time?"....the the guy quietly pulled a knife and demanded his money. However, my buddy at that time was working a street sting in the city at Christmas time. In two seconds two other cops had guns drawn on the perp and two others took him down face first on the Christmas pavement. My buddy knelt down and said "It's 7:32".

 

[drop bear]

I'll be fine then, I don't wear a watch


But that makes sense, the different approaches.

Using that sort of thing - the ambush.

Would carrying a defensive weapon (irrespective of level of training with said weapon) open you to different attacks while you're reaching for it?

That's somewhat negated if you're trained to use it as a last resort, following empty hand type stuff.

But for the (relatively) untrained (or those only trained with that weapon) is a possible successful empty hand defence that would allow "run away" stymied by taking an arm out if commission?

There is no reason you couldn't draw a weapon that reduces unarmed attacks. You would just throw some boxing head movement in there.

Hell. Plastic gun and some boxing gloves. And you could drill it.

 

[pdg]

So you wouldn't just take a backwards step and deescalate?

Don't be silly, everyone knows that in that scenario you're supposed to grab his wrist, break it, then use his own fingers to poke his eyes, combination throat punch and groin kick him to the floor before finally (and most importantly) restomping the groin...

Don't you know nuffink?

 

[Tez3]

(I got attacked with a muffler once)

You got attacked by a scarf!!?

 

[drop bear]

You got attacked by a scarf!!?

No a car part.

Speak ,Stralyan.

 

[pdg]

You got attacked by a scarf!!?

Could be worse, like that time I got attacked with a muff


(why is there no peeking out from behind a sofa smiley???)

 

[Anarax]

Extending your arm could look overly defensive, or worse aggressive - plus you've just given them a handy lever...

Just to clarify a few things, I do it in a defensive/passive way, it's not a hard nor aggressive move, though it could be done it that manner. I don't keep my arm extended, it's more so a gesture to convey "that's far enough". I retract my arm before they get within striking distance of my arm. It's also a visual cue to any witnesses or CCTV that I gestured in a defensive manner, meaning I gave ample notice I didn't want any trouble. If it does turn into a self-defense situation and there's an altercation, it helps to identify me as the defender/victim.

you've taken one arm partially out of commission.

Personally, I don't see it as out of commission. It's in a position in case I need to respond to a weapon attack or other worst case scenarios.

Would you also position yourself (slightly or more) with your weapon side (and I presume your dominant hand/arm) turned away?

Yes exactly, I do this to put myself in a more reactionary position in case of an altercation, I do it subtlety though.

 

[Anarax]

You got attacked by a scarf!!?

Scarf or Sarong chokes are the worst I've experienced

 

[pdg]

In seriousness...

So you wouldn't just take a backwards step and deescalate?

I'd more likely just leave, if that was still possible. Because:

Yes exactly, I do this to put myself in a more reactionary position in case of an altercation, I do it subtlety though.

This combined with an extended arm (even fleetingly) would suggest to me you're getting set up for an altercation.

I'd read that body language as you probably being on edge, which would make me start toward wariness of continuing to approach.


Maybe this can be attributed to our different perceptions of environment? I'm a bit country, I'm more comfortable in a dimly lit almost deserted street than a crowded well lit shopping centre.

Maybe that's a factor in why I've not had problems in places that people have commented on afterwards as being "a bit dodgy"...

 

[Anarax]

This combined with an extended arm (even fleetingly) would suggest to me you're getting set up for an altercation.

IMO, body language is a lot like verbal communication, tone and inflection can change the meaning entirely. The manner I raise my arm and the overall vibe I project is much more telling than the motion itself. From my experience, someone raising their arm in a "stop" type of gesture is usually indicative of not wanting a confrontation nor altercation. Our experience just probably differ.

I'd read that body language as you probably being on edge, which would make me start toward wariness of continuing to approach.

If I were to swing my tensed arm up in a quick and pancaked manner, then I would agree with you. Which goes back to the manner and vibe in which you move rather than the actual motion. I do it in a calm yet firm manner.

Maybe this can be attributed to our different perceptions of environment? I'm a bit country, I'm more comfortable in a dimly lit almost deserted street than a crowded well lit shopping centre.

I don't know exactly what you mean by country, but I agree our backgrounds will change our perception. For example, I was in armed security for a few years, so I might me more cautious with people than your average person. That doesn't mean that I reach for my weapon anytime someone says "good day". It means I pick up on certain cues and hope for the best, but prepare for the worst.

 

[Tez3]

No a car part.

Speak ,Stralyan.

Watching the Commonwealth Games, certainly wish I could be there looks gorgeous.

Could be worse, like that time I got attacked with a muff

Tricky things muffs. 'oooo matron!'