WC footwork

[Kung Fu Wang]

Someone asked me the following questions the other day and I didn't have a good answer.

- What kind of WC footwork do you have?
- When do you start to train it?
- How do you train it?

What's your opinion on this?

 

[geezer]

Someone asked me the following questions the other day and I didn't have a good answer.

- What kind of WC footwork do you have?
- When do you start to train it?
- How do you train it?

What's your opinion on this?

- What kind of WC footwork do you have?

We favor narrow, upright stances with the feet roughly shoulder distance apart--whether oriented sideways as in YGKYM or in a front to back position. We also favor short, shuffling steps allowing for short, quick movement in any direction. And when one foot is in front and the other behind as in "advancing step" position, we (in our VT) place most of the weight on the rear leg, freeing up the front leg to kick and defend without taking time for a telegraphic weight-shift. However, we do sometimes employ other stances and steps, such as front weighted stances, and passing steps, when needed.

- When do you start to train it?

Stance and step training starts at the beginning of the first lesson and you continue to perfect it throughout your training. You continue to develop your footwork as you progress through the forms all the way through Siu Nim Tau, Chum Kiu, Biu Tze, Mook Yang Jong, Luk Dim Boon Kwun, and Bart Cham Dao, as well as in chi-sau and sparring. For most people that covers at least a decade of training in our program. It is taking me a lot longer because I'm a bit ...er...slow.

- How do you train it?

You practice doing the forms, in single and paired exercises and drills, in chi-sau, and in in sparring ....under the watchful guidance of your instructor, coach, or sifu.


What's your opinion on this?

In short, footwork is highly emphasized and rigorously trained in WC/WT/VT, as it is in most martial-arts and martial-sports I have encountered. And, IMO that's exactly as it should be.

 

[Eric_H]

Someone asked me the following questions the other day and I didn't have a good answer.

- What kind of WC footwork do you have?
- When do you start to train it?
- How do you train it?

What's your opinion on this?

HFY has a lot that I haven't found anywhere else yet. Our early footwork is Leung Yi Ma, Buhn Yuet Ma and Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma. Through different training modules we also explore Ping Ma Bo (Flat stance stepping), Jee Ng Ma Bo (Cross side stepping), and Chun Gee Bo (Thrusting forward stepping).

As we start to move towards chum kiu, we start to train the first few sections of the short bridge dummy, 5 foot staff and a footwork drill called Bai Jong Baat Bo Jin. Here there are more cross stance stepping, T Stances, Diu Ma (toe stance), Chun Saam Bo (Advancing footwork), Hao Saam Bo (backing up footwork), Yi Saam Bo (Side-matching footwork), Juk Saam Bo and Jun Saam Bo (both turning footworks one 90 degrees, one 180).

After that, I don't know. I know the later sections of our dummy/Biu Gee have some stuff not common to other WC lineages, but that's kind of a running theme at this point.

 

[Parky]

The Wing Chun I currently practice is very simple. Move your balanced Center wherever you want and let the feet follow. It's not about the feet, it's about the body and Wholeness. The only thing resembling footwork in the WC I practice is in the BJD. So I wouldn't call it footwork, I would call it WC body movement and we start that in Chum Kiu. The way you train it is to first have an understanding of how to make the body one Unit (Standing Post and SNT) and then to develop the simple understanding of how to move (from the Center). The legs and feet already know what to do.

Just two cents worth and a cent aint worth much these days.

 

[kakkattekoi]

i thought bart cham dao n forms have different footwork
please correct me if Im mistaken since im still.at biu tze.

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[wckf92]

i thought bart cham dao n forms have different footwork
please correct me if Im mistaken since im still.at biu tze.

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It does, but footwork is still footwork

 

[Parky]

i thought bart cham dao n forms have different footwork
please correct me if Im mistaken since im still.at biu tze.

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Not sure if this was directed at me, but assuming it was, what I should have said in my initial post is that the only place in my WC where I have what most people consider footwork is in the BJD form. The Stepping/Turning advancing and retreating footwork in BJD is closer to footwork, as the feet seem to initiate the movement, but there is still an emphasis on Wholeness. But elsewhere in my WC movement is only about body Unit, wholeness, and moving the Center first letting the feet follow. Again, that's just one flavor of WC. So, yes, BJD movement is different than CK movement. Cheers!

 

[Juany118]

TWC, has neutral stances and front stances of course. The footwork is linear, cutting angles especially. The steps are what I sometimes call "half steps". Unlike some other Lineages we work toward 50/50 weight distribution. Also we don't shuffle in the footwork we do a "full" step. The thought is when you hear a shuffle, that sound is a sign of friction, friction is wasted energy and slows you. I am not a physicist so I do not know if raising the foot a little bit more to avoid shuffling or shuffling is really more efficient though.

We start learning the footwork before CK, via various drills.

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[DanT]

Someone asked me the following questions the other day and I didn't have a good answer.

- What kind of WC footwork do you have?
- When do you start to train it?
- How do you train it?

What's your opinion on this?

First week students generally only learn the stance, after which they learn the turning stance. Once the turning stance is near perfect (usually takes 10-20 classes), they learn shuffle stepping forwards and backwards. Once the shuffling forwards and backwards and switching from left lead to right lead is near perfect, they learn heun bo (circle stepping). Also once they get their walking backwards and forwards down they start sparring (where they can practice their footwork freely and move however they want.) At the end of the day your footwork in combat has to be agile and may involve stuff we dont do regularly in class (jumping out of the way or doing a somersault or jumping over a fence or something like that) For that reason peoples footwork apart from the basics (forward backward side side) should be agile, and they should have strong legs to move them however they need to.

 

[anerlich]

The thought is when you hear a shuffle, that sound is a sign of friction, friction is wasted energy and slows you.

A car needs a brake as well as an accelerator. Sometimes you want to be able to slow down.

The TWC forms I practice include some dragging footwork. Though usually, like boxing the balls of the feet are accelerators, the heels brakes.

 

[Juany118]

A car needs a brake as well as an accelerator. Sometimes you want to be able to slow down.

The TWC forms I practice include some dragging footwork. Though usually, like boxing the balls of the feet are accelerators, the heels brakes.

Oh, you are correct. I am talking a straight up shuffle that I still do on occasion (bad habits die hard). I have a nasty habit of dragging my trailing foot period if I am doing just a quick t-step and the like. So it's like I am half stepping half shuffling at the same time, working against each other, rather than doing one or the other as needed. Doesn't that make more sense?

 

[JowGaWolf]

I am not a physicist so I do not know if raising the foot a little bit more to avoid shuffling or shuffling is really more efficient though.

I don't do wing chun but I know about shuffling. Choy Ga utilizes a bunch of shuffling. The shuffling allows a person to advance and retreat unnoticed. It keeps the person in close without spooking your opponent. If you advance too close into your opponent then he will flee and run to create the distance. By taking short shuffles you can advance without spooking your prey. This is something you can actually. As far as efficiency, the efficiency isn't so much for movement as it is to deliver body weight behind each strike. With a shuffle, I can use a 1-2-3 jab combo and throw my weight into each one of those jabs. However, if I step forward, then my step may be too deep, too short, or I may be knocked off balance.

For the lack of a better description, I explain it to the adult students it's like having a child in the backseat of a car then slamming on the breaks and watching the child smash into the wind shield. For the kids I have them relax their arms and shuffle forward. If the arms are truly relaxed then they will swing forward. The same can be done with a glass of water that is almost full.

It's also more stable as it is a root, release, root type movement. The sound that you hear from shuffling is the root moving across the floor.

 

[Juany118]

I don't do wing chun but I know about shuffling. Choy Ga utilizes a bunch of shuffling. The shuffling allows a person to advance and retreat unnoticed. It keeps the person in close without spooking your opponent. If you advance too close into your opponent then he will flee and run to create the distance. By taking short shuffles you can advance without spooking your prey. This is something you can actually. As far as efficiency, the efficiency isn't so much for movement as it is to deliver body weight behind each strike. With a shuffle, I can use a 1-2-3 jab combo and throw my weight into each one of those jabs. However, if I step forward, then my step may be too deep, too short, or I may be knocked off balance.

For the lack of a better description, I explain it to the adult students it's like having a child in the backseat of a car then slamming on the breaks and watching the child smash into the wind shield. For the kids I have them relax their arms and shuffle forward. If the arms are truly relaxed then they will swing forward. The same can be done with a glass of water that is almost full.

It's also more stable as it is a root, release, root type movement. The sound that you hear from shuffling is the root moving across the floor.

I think one of the differences might be the attitude of the two teachers I have combined with the WC concepts. I describe the idea using a line from Henry V... "once more into the breach, once more." If you are on the offensive and, as you say, your prey flees, I can take their center and thus their balance. Additionally the difference between my punch and yours, I think is summed up by "deliver the body weight behind each strike."

I do not study your art so correct me if I wrong but, from the videos I have seen with the sparring and it appears you use body mechanics to, for lack of a better term, is so that you can "throw" your weight behind the punch. The purpose on the WC side, again for lack of a better term, is to "keep" my weight behind the punch. That dictates, on my side, a rather relentless march, if I am striking. We also tend to use "half steps", once engaged which maybe makes a difference as well. When I first started my biggest issue was stepping too much in a single step.

The two videos here "No Outside Game," or Another Thread About Hybrid Arts kinda some up how the punch works. Extend that into a dynamic encounter. Now my style also puts a preference on stepping on a angle if needed, to maintain a flanking position if your striking doesn't maintain it, but to make the striking work you must advance with power, from the ground up. Now this is an oversimplification of course but maybe it kinda explains why I said what I did about my footwork? As @anerlich said, and I still have the occasional issue pulling off if I am honest, stepping is the accelerator, shuffling the brake.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I do not study your art so correct me if I wrong but, from the videos I have seen with the sparring and it appears you use body mechanics to, for lack of a better term, is so that you can "throw" your weight behind the punch.

This is correct for some of the punches but not for all. We have both circular and linear punches. With the circular punches it's going to be impossible to "keep" the weight behind the punch. So in that light you are correct

But our linear strikes are almost the same concept. With linear strikes we still throw our weight into our punch but the only way to do this is to make sure that the weight is BEHIND the punch. Here's the videos that you referenced. The punch at 0:48 would be considered a shuffle in Jow Ga. We say the same thing, use our feet to get to our target. However, stepping for Jow Ga is like walking, where the rear foot goes to the front in order to advance. Stepping in Jow Ga can also mean that the front leg pulls the body forward.

With shuffle steps, one leg always stays in front while the rear leg pushes forward to move the body forward. The only thing required is to move forward is to lift the front foot up and to push with the rear. The biggest difference that I see that after the front foot lands, he slides the rear foot up a little closer. It's like a hidden advance or a reloading of a push. This is common with fighters who have the weight on their back legs.

Fighters who fight 50/50 (which is really difficult) are ready to push forward or backwards without shifting weight to one leg or the other. In the video he mentions that the rear foot "catches up." In Jow Ga this is common with the circular punches, with the linear punches it just depends on the technique that will follow the punch.
This is a video I took of me last Sunday. My legs almost stay the same distance apart but I'm able to move with no problem. In the video, I'm going slow and only focusing on technique so I can see where I need to fine tune and correct parts of my form. If I go at the speed I'm supposed to practice in then the camera would blur and I wouldn't be able to tell where I'm screwing up.

Over all I think we are talking about the same thing. I just think we had 2 different perceptions of what a "step" is and that was throwing us off.

 

[Juany118]

This is correct for some of the punches but not for all. We have both circular and linear punches. With the circular punches it's going to be impossible to "keep" the weight behind the punch. So in that light you are correct

But our linear strikes are almost the same concept. With linear strikes we still throw our weight into our punch but the only way to do this is to make sure that the weight is BEHIND the punch. Here's the videos that you referenced. The punch at 0:48 would be considered a shuffle in Jow Ga. We say the same thing, use our feet to get to our target. However, stepping for Jow Ga is like walking, where the rear foot goes to the front in order to advance. Stepping in Jow Ga can also mean that the front leg pulls the body forward.

With shuffle steps, one leg always stays in front while the rear leg pushes forward to move the body forward. The only thing required is to move forward is to lift the front foot up and to push with the rear. The biggest difference that I see that after the front foot lands, he slides the rear foot up a little closer. It's like a hidden advance or a reloading of a push. This is common with fighters who have the weight on their back legs.

Fighters who fight 50/50 (which is really difficult) are ready to push forward or backwards without shifting weight to one leg or the other. In the video he mentions that the rear foot "catches up." In Jow Ga this is common with the circular punches, with the linear punches it just depends on the technique that will follow the punch.
This is a video I took of me last Sunday. My legs almost stay the same distance apart but I'm able to move with no problem. In the video, I'm going slow and only focusing on technique so I can see where I need to fine tune and correct parts of my form. If I go at the speed I'm supposed to practice in then the camera would blur and I wouldn't be able to tell where I'm screwing up.

Over all I think we are talking about the same thing. I just think we had 2 different perceptions of what a "step" is and that was throwing us off.

I think so. To me "shuffling" is when I can hear, or feel, the contact the foot has with the surface as I move. Even if it is half steps, quarter steps or one inch step, if the distance between point A and B of the step has no friction with the ground...It isn't a shuffle.

In my mind the shuffle exists when you can hear the squeak of rubber against the floor as you move. When I hear that squeak at the wrong time I say "damn" inside, unless the squeak is a consequence of me "applying the brakes" for some reason.

Not sure if that makes sense but it is the simplest way I can express it.

 

[Cephalopod]

For the lack of a better description, I explain it to the adult students it's like having a child in the backseat of a car then slamming on the breaks and watching the child smash into the wind shield. For the kids I have them relax their arms and shuffle forward. If the arms are truly relaxed then they will swing forward. The same can be done with a glass of water that is almost full.

Man, that analogy is just rancid.
Do you mean to say that as you shuffle step forward, the body comes to a full stop and the momentum of the arms carry them forward to strike the target?
It seems that if I wanted to smash through a brick wall, I would ram the whole car into it rather than slam on the brakes and strike it with a dead baby flying through the windshield...

Just...eww...

 

[JowGaWolf]

Man, that analogy is just rancid.
Do you mean to say that as you shuffle step forward, the body comes to a full stop and the momentum of the arms carry them forward to strike the target?
It seems that if I wanted to smash through a brick wall, I would ram the whole car into it rather than slam on the brakes and strike it with a dead baby flying through the windshield...

Just...eww...

yeah it's pretty rancid, but it makes clear of what types force that we are dealing with and the dangers of it. The same way that force can kill a child or even an adult, can also bust your hand up if your fist hits the skull and not the facial bones. So don't go around thinking that you can small your hand into someone's skull like smashing a car through a brick wall because the car can't feel.

You can blame the80's driver's ed videos and seat belt commercials for my mentality lol.

Wait or was it this one