Yuen Kay San Passing Footwork

[drop bear]

true, if you are selling it. Then 'trade secrets' particularly genuine ones could give you an upperhand, i can see that.

not all teachers are out to make money though and some couldnt give a rats *** what the market is like.

personally im of the opinion that, although of course teachers have a responsibilty to their students in that they shouldnt mislead them, the responsibility of the student has been a little downplayed in modern times. as a seeker of knowledge and skill isnt it just as much the students role to train hard, with dedication and loyalty and be (as cringily mystical as it sounds) 'worthy' of what they have been taught? the whole reason i learn from my teacher/teachers is i wana be a baddass like them. if i could be half as awesome ill take what i can get! instead of feeling some kind of entitlement that i and everyone deserve to know every detail about everything.

A really wise man once told me that if you really value what you have learned you wouldnt share it easily. not only cause you worked damn hard for it but the moral implications of not contributing to the wider communities library of knowledge are dwarfed by blindely giving away to anyone, of any character the knowledge to potentially misuse and cause harm in society?

Not with martial arts. Because the better the people are around you the better you get. And you do this by sharing your secret knowledge letting someone take that and improve it or defend it. Then they share it, you improve it and so on.

And the more you unpack your techniques and use them the better you get at them.

The secret squirrel nonsense is why some systems have struggled to compete over the last, especially 20 years. Which has produced youtube an a much more collaborative martial community.

I mean if you are still garbage in say 6 months. Take a serious look at the system you are using. If everyone else is garbage then jump ship. There are plenty of exceptional martial artists running around these days.

The idea of hanging around for some secret techniques is probably a lie these days.

Like this example in the OP. You could pay a legitimate amateur boxer or kickboxer. So a guy with some real legitimate skills a six pack and he would take you through how to make a pivot step work. Or even a Thai sweep if that was what that move was trying for.

I mean a semi successful amateur fighter is still working a 9 to 5 and could use the extra coin.

I was taught that sweep by Damien Brown on an $80 for a 3 day seminar.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=3796459370366494

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

the better the people are around you the better you get.

Agree with you 100% there. If your opponent knows how to escape a single leg, it will force you to train how to use single leg to set up something else.

Old Chinese saying said, "Teacher and students can grow at the same time."

 

[APL76]

true, if you are selling it. Then 'trade secrets' particularly genuine ones could give you an upperhand, i can see that.

not all teachers are out to make money though and some couldnt give a rats *** what the market is like.

personally im of the opinion that, although of course teachers have a responsibilty to their students in that they shouldnt mislead them, the responsibility of the student has been a little downplayed in modern times. as a seeker of knowledge and skill isnt it just as much the students role to train hard, with dedication and loyalty and be (as cringily mystical as it sounds) 'worthy' of what they have been taught? the whole reason i learn from my teacher/teachers is i wana be a baddass like them. if i could be half as awesome ill take what i can get! instead of feeling some kind of entitlement that i and everyone deserve to know every detail about everything.

A really wise man once told me that if you really value what you have learned you wouldnt share it easily. not only cause you worked damn hard for it but the moral implications of not contributing to the wider communities library of knowledge are dwarfed by blindely giving away to anyone, of any character the knowledge to potentially misuse and cause harm in society?

You go to MIT computer science department to learn how to be a software engineer. Your MIT professor teaches you how to write a computer program. The first program that you write, your computer says, "invalid programming syntax". Will you take your MIT computer science professor to be responsible for this?


What if a teacher taught his students the wrong information, his student tried to use it to save his wife from being killed. It didn't work. His wife was killed. Will that be the teacher's fault?


I have never heard anyone who does scientific research and has never published any paper. The moment that you publish your paper. Your knowledge is in the public domain.

Science is all about sharing. MA should be no different.

I think the scenarios you describe here are different to that kung fu depending on your attitude to the kung fu.

As a person who was until recently an academic I agree with you on all your points in that context. The saying goes you either publish or perish. Now, if you were relying on your kung fu to pay the bills then you might have a similar attitude to an academic. If you are in a position to be choose about who you teach, then why would you teach anyone who stumbles along?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If you are in a position to be choose about who you teach, then why would you teach anyone who stumbles along?

If you

- don't trust a person, you won't teach him.
- trust a person, when you teach that person, you have no secret to hide.

 

[APL76]

Just looking at some of the comments here I think there are probably two different approaches at play here.

It appears to me that some people are talking about a teacher holding back "secret techniques" from THEIR students or teaching THEIR students erroneous stuff, and people are saying that that is bad.

I'd agree. Obijuan's and my sifu often tells us that Sum Nung would tell him "there are no secret techniques in Wing Chun". Yet that's not really what we are talking about.

Sum Nung himself never showed how to do his Wing Chun properly when he showed it in some public demonstration, of which he did a small number. The conditions that our Sifu learned wing chun from Sum Nung were quite strict and he was instructed to not only cut ties with the Yip Man side of wing chun (he was Yip Chun's student before he met Sum Nung) but he was also told not to go showing his wing chun to anyone and everyone who came along. Our Sifu isn't quite so strict with us, he's still strict, but not THAT strict, but, knowing the conditions he learned under, and having respect for him and Sum Nung, we hold similar attitudes; and indeed given how he taught me over the last couple of decades, I know If I just went filming our Guangzhou wing chun and putting it out there I probably wouldn't learn much of it.

My students however, I teach them 100% accurately to the best of my ability, just as my Sifu does with us. Nothing is presented in a skewed manner to "protect secrets". It's a matter of not spilling your guts to outsiders who you hardly know and don't know whether you can trust of not. Those on the inside as it were, no problem, outsiders however........that is where one gets careful about what you show.

Why is that??? Well someone resurrected an ancient thread here about William Cheung the other day, I suspect hundreds of years of unscrupulous people in kung fu has taught people to be a little reticent to give out the goods willy nilly.

 

[APL76]

If you

- don't trust a person, you won't teach him.
- trust a person, when you teach that person, you have no secret to hide.

Sure, and that's the point I seemed to be typing while you were typing that.

But say someone shows up and asks you to show them a few things. They seem like a nice guy, they are passionate about kung fu and social conventions and polite manners dictate that you can't just come across like an a@#hole and tell them to go away?

I suspect that's the position a lot of these old traditional kung fu guys are put in when well meaning people show up and ask them to show them a few things. I bet that's the position Kwok Wan Ping was put in in the original video on this thread.

And lets not forget this isn't confined to Wing Chun, nor is it a specifically Chinese thing. I have a friend who aside from doing wing chun also does Japanese martial arts and he has told me that you learn properly for a long time, but you are never given all pieces of the puzzle until quite a long way in.
I learned a very particular style of horsemanship that comes from California and by all accounts the old masters of that stuff wouldn't tell you a damned thing until they knew you were to be trusted. As Obi_Juan_Salami said, if you hold something precious you don't just dish it out to anyone who thinks they are entitled to it.

 

[paitingman]

Sure, and that's the point I seemed to be typing while you were typing that.

But say someone shows up and asks you to show them a few things. They seem like a nice guy, they are passionate about kung fu and social conventions and polite manners dictate that you can't just come across like an a@#hole and tell them to go away?

I suspect that's the position a lot of these old traditional kung fu guys are put in when well meaning people show up and ask them to show them a few things. I bet that's the position Kwok Wan Ping was put in in the original video on this thread.

And lets not forget this isn't confined to Wing Chun, nor is it a specifically Chinese thing. I have a friend who aside from doing wing chun also does Japanese martial arts and he has told me that you learn properly for a long time, but you are never given all pieces of the puzzle until quite a long way in.
I learned a very particular style of horsemanship that comes from California and by all accounts the old masters of that stuff wouldn't tell you a damned thing until they knew you were to be trusted. As Obi_Juan_Salami said, if you hold something precious you don't just dish it out to anyone who thinks they are entitled to it.

In the case of outsiders, I still don't see what's wrong with just showing them some basics or nothing at all.
If it's their prerogative who they share teachings with, then they could just not share anything.

The year is 1974, a tourist has just stepped off the dock in Atlanta and wants to know where the United States Capitol is.
The first man he approaches doesn't say a word and walks right by him.
The second man he approaches smiles warmly and says, "You're gonna want to get yourself a bus ticket to Buffalo, NY."

Which one of them was the real a$*hole?

 

[drop bear]

Sure, and that's the point I seemed to be typing while you were typing that.

But say someone shows up and asks you to show them a few things. They seem like a nice guy, they are passionate about kung fu and social conventions and polite manners dictate that you can't just come across like an a@#hole and tell them to go away?

I suspect that's the position a lot of these old traditional kung fu guys are put in when well meaning people show up and ask them to show them a few things. I bet that's the position Kwok Wan Ping was put in in the original video on this thread.

And lets not forget this isn't confined to Wing Chun, nor is it a specifically Chinese thing. I have a friend who aside from doing wing chun also does Japanese martial arts and he has told me that you learn properly for a long time, but you are never given all pieces of the puzzle until quite a long way in.
I learned a very particular style of horsemanship that comes from California and by all accounts the old masters of that stuff wouldn't tell you a damned thing until they knew you were to be trusted. As Obi_Juan_Salami said, if you hold something precious you don't just dish it out to anyone who thinks they are entitled to it.

Is this isolationism why some styles just are not as good?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

if you hold something precious you don't just dish it out to anyone who thinks they are entitled to it.

If there is an opportunity that there can be one more person who can pass your MA knowledge down to the next generation, why do you want to miss that chance?

What good can it be if someone brings all his MA secret to his grave? IMO, the task to preserve the MA is more important than anything else.

 

[BrendanF]

But say someone shows up and asks you to show them a few things. They seem like a nice guy, they are passionate about kung fu and social conventions and polite manners dictate that you can't just come across like an a@#hole and tell them to go away?

I suspect that's the position a lot of these old traditional kung fu guys are put in when well meaning people show up and ask them to show them a few things. I bet that's the position Kwok Wan Ping was put in in the original video on this thread.

That's quite an insulting characterisation to level at someone. Have you watched any of his (Monkey Steals Peach) videos? Do you know anything at all about him and what he does?

I do. And I can tell you that he has an extensive history in CMA, has spent years living in China, speaks mandarin.. and chooses to travel and produce documentaries on CMA. In every instance he arranges introductions and attempts to film and document the arts honestly.

If it was me I'd be pretty irritated by your accusation.

 

[Eric_H]

That's quite an insulting characterisation to level at someone. Have you watched any of his (Monkey Steals Peach) videos? Do you know anything at all about him and what he does?

I do. And I can tell you that he has an extensive history in CMA, has spent years living in China, speaks mandarin.. and chooses to travel and produce documentaries on CMA. In every instance he arranges introductions and attempts to film and document the arts honestly.

If it was me I'd be pretty irritated by your accusation.

Just because he, or anyone else, is nice and polite doesn't mean that any master will show him or anyone else their actual stuff. Particularly not on film. Not sure why that's triggering you to be butthurt on this guy's behalf.

 

[BrendanF]

Not sure why you'd need to describe me as 'triggered' or 'butthurt'. I don't really care at all. But I do know the guy who makes those videos, and the context they are filmed in. I maintain that your description is quite insulting.

You seem to be flitting between making two separate assertions - the post I quoted I read as saying that you feel these 'old traditional kung fu guys' are 'being put in a position' that amounts to being coerced to reveal valuable material against their will.

Now you seem to be claiming that your assertion is simply that 'being nice and polite doesn't mean any master will show anyone.. stuff.'

I'm not sure of the connection, and certainly don't disagree with the second statement. I disagree with your claim that Will put anyone in some sort of coerced position, and believe it's pretty insulting.

 

[obi_juan_salami]

That's quite an insulting characterisation to level at someone. Have you watched any of his (Monkey Steals Peach) videos? Do you know anything at all about him and what he does?

I do. And I can tell you that he has an extensive history in CMA, has spent years living in China, speaks mandarin.. and chooses to travel and produce documentaries on CMA. In every instance he arranges introductions and attempts to film and document the arts honestly.

If it was me I'd be pretty irritated by your accusation.

i didnt see anything insulting about APL76s post..
the oppsite really, he called him a passionate martial artists and a nice guy?

fact is even with all those things you know abkut him amd the work that he does do you really know his character? unless you know him personally id say no. it takes time to get to know another person and to build trust.

dont know about you buti wouldnt give a copy of my house key to someone who is just a nice guy based on my first impression but i dont know him? not tk mention if he documents and shares with the world his findings isnt it more reason not to show him? then your knowledge reqlly is going to MILLIONS of people you dont know..

 

[BrendanF]

Firstly my apologies to Eric for confusing him with APL76.

As I say, I'm certainly not insulted - I don't know Will personally. But I have spoken with him and believe I have some understanding of how he approaches producing his documentaries.

Again, in directly quoting APL76's post I pointed out how he is explicitly stating that he believes Will is coercing these people, virtually 'tricking' people into being filmed.

If you don't think that's insulting that's fine, we can agree to disagree - again I don't care in the least, I just wonder why one would assume such scheming or devious motives in someone you don't know.

 

[obi_juan_salami]

Firstly my apologies to Eric for confusing him with APL76.

As I say, I'm certainly not insulted - I don't know Will personally. But I have spoken with him and believe I have some understanding of how he approaches producing his documentaries.

Again, in directly quoting APL76's post I pointed out how he is explicitly stating that he believes Will is coercing these people, virtually 'tricking' people into being filmed.

If you don't think that's insulting that's fine, we can agree to disagree - again I don't care in the least, I just wonder why one would assume such scheming or devious motives in someone you don't know.

perhaps that may have been misinterpreted. i dont think he meant that will had ill intentions or motives or that he was tricking kwok. i took it more as pointing out an awkward social situation. the guy is polite and clearly has a genuine interest, is respectful and wants to learn. so kwok gives him a taste rather than revealing the essence.

if someone respectful, nice and eager asked you but at the same time you dont know them personally, you just meet them somewhere in the middle. give them a taste without giving them everything. if they are keen they will come back for more lessons. seems fair to me.

i think if you gave them nothing and just said "NO ITS MY SECRET" it just makes for an awkward interaction, you make no friends, have no potential students and just look bad.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

On the other hand, it's a step,

It can be explained this way.

- Both you and your opponent have right legs forward.
- Your right leg is on the right side (your right) of your opponent's right leg.
- You don't want to enter through your opponent's front door for some reason. You move your front leg in a small curve to be outside of his front leg. This may involve a shin bite.
- You then enter through his side door.

 

[BrendanF]

perhaps that may have been misinterpreted.

It could well be. However I don't think it is - I think APL76 provided an inaccurate description based on a flawed premise.

APL76 bases his entire position on the claim that Will showed up and "asked to be shown a few things."

This is not what happened - as I said, he organises introductions and discusses thoroughly before filming.

Again - he is a documentary maker. That's all.

If one wanted to discuss TMA teachers withholding 'secrets' or demonstrating incorrect material in front of a camera is one thing. That is a trait that has been thoroughly documented.

"social conventions and polite manners dictate that you can't just come across like an a@#hole and tell them to go away?" ... "I suspect that's the position a lot of these old traditional kung fu guys are put in when well meaning people show up and ask them to show them a few things. I bet that's the position Kwok Wan Ping was put in"

If you don't think that's insulting, again we can agree to disagree, that's fine.

I fail to see how someone couldn't simply say 'no, I don't film my art' - without coming across like an *******? It has happened many times in the past. Again I say that it is describing someone 'asking to be shown a few things' 'putting someone in a position' ... being coerced. The reality is Will doesn't train Wing Chun, didn't ask to be shown anything, and didn't put anyone in any position - other than able to promote their art through his documentaries.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

That punch, assuming that guy is doing what I was taught is simply meant to be a straight punch just with an inverted horizontal fist. Its not uncommon in a few varieties of wing chun as far as I have seen.

I have never seen any straight punch that punch this way.

 

[APL76]

Not sure why you'd need to describe me as 'triggered' or 'butthurt'. I don't really care at all. But I do know the guy who makes those videos, and the context they are filmed in. I maintain that your description is quite insulting.

You seem to be flitting between making two separate assertions - the post I quoted I read as saying that you feel these 'old traditional kung fu guys' are 'being put in a position' that amounts to being coerced to reveal valuable material against their will.

Now you seem to be claiming that your assertion is simply that 'being nice and polite doesn't mean any master will show anyone.. stuff.'

I'm not sure of the connection, and certainly don't disagree with the second statement. I disagree with your claim that Will put anyone in some sort of coerced position, and believe it's pretty insulting.

I think you are mixing me and Eric_H up. That aside, to begin with, I really don’t care one way or another about whoever the guy is, his motives or anything else about the guy. I’m sure he is a lovely guy, and passionate about kung fu. Indeed, I think I said something to that effect.

The main point I am making can be summed up by a question: Is that guy Kwok Wan Ping’s disciple? If the answer is no, he is not, then why would Kwok Wan Ping be willing to give him everything about any of the Sup Yi Sik, which is what it appears to me he is showing the guy? If Kwok Wan Ping hasn’t known the guy for a fair while, how would he know that that guy can be trusted?

It has nothing to do with that guy, or Kwok Wan Ping in particular, it’s just a statement about not showing stuff in detail to people you don’t really know. That simple.


Now, in relation to other stuff you are reading into my post. Absolutely nowhere did I suggest that that guy was coercing Kwok Wan Ping into anything. Absolutely nowhere did I insinuate that he was tricking anyone into being filmed, and absolutely nowhere did I assert that the guy had scheming of devious motives.

If I said any of that stuff in anything I wrote, quote them back to me. I suspect you won’t be able to.


As obi_juan_salami kindly stated, all I’m saying is that when someone comes and wants to talk with you about kung fu, you don’t know the guy so don’t know to what degree he can be trusted, but he seems OK so you are happy to share a bit of your material with him. But still, you don’t spill you guts about everything. It’s not a reflection on that guy filming stuff, it’s an acknowledgement that the relationship is not established to a degree that warrants trust.


Now, if you want to be irritated and offended by that, and further, read a heap of stuff into my post that’s not there. Be my guest.

 

[APL76]

I have never seen any straight punch that punch this way.

Well, without wanting to irritate or offend anyone (seems I have a knack for it) lets just say that the way it is being done there is not really representative of what I would consider correct.