Yuen Kay San Passing Footwork

[BrendanF]

I think you are mixing me and Eric_H up.

Yes, I did note and apologise for that mistake. See post #34, perhaps you missed it.

The main point I am making can be summed up by a question: Is that guy Kwok Wan Ping’s disciple? If the answer is no, he is not, then why would Kwok Wan Ping be willing to give him everything about any of the Sup Yi Sik, which is what it appears to me he is showing the guy? If Kwok Wan Ping hasn’t known the guy for a fair while, how would he know that that guy can be trusted?

It has nothing to do with that guy, or Kwok Wan Ping in particular, it’s just a statement about not showing stuff in detail to people you don’t really know. That simple.

I understand what you're saying. I guess I view the videos differently; I don't see any magical secrets being shown, and I don't really understand why anyone would have a problem with Mr Kwok demonstrating whatever he sees fit in a doco. And beyond that - how do you know how long they've known each other?

Now, in relation to other stuff you are reading into my post. Absolutely nowhere did I suggest that that guy was coercing Kwok Wan Ping into anything. Absolutely nowhere did I insinuate that he was tricking anyone into being filmed, and absolutely nowhere did I assert that the guy had scheming of devious motives.

If I said any of that stuff in anything I wrote, quote them back to me. I suspect you won’t be able to.

I did - several times. Here goes again though.

But say someone shows up and asks you to show them a few things. They seem like a nice guy, they are passionate about kung fu and social conventions and polite manners dictate that you can't just come across like an a@#hole and tell them to go away?

I suspect that's the position a lot of these old traditional kung fu guys are put in when well meaning people show up and ask them to show them a few things. I bet that's the position Kwok Wan Ping was put in in the original video on this thread.

You bet Mr Kwok was put in a position in which he feels that polite manners dictate he can't just come across like an a@#hole and tell him to go away?

And you don't think that statement implies coercion? Ok.

As obi_juan_salami kindly stated, all I’m saying is that when someone comes and wants to talk with you about kung fu, you don’t know the guy so don’t know to what degree he can be trusted, but he seems OK so you are happy to share a bit of your material with him. But still, you don’t spill you guts about everything. It’s not a reflection on that guy filming stuff, it’s an acknowledgement that the relationship is not established to a degree that warrants trust.


Now, if you want to be irritated and offended by that, and further, read a heap of stuff into my post that’s not there. Be my guest.

I have no real issue with you having your own views on keeping your secret stuff. I have no real issue with you forming strange assumptions about documentary film makers and other kung fu teachers demonstrating stuff on film; you are of course welcome to them, they are worth as much as any. I studied YM WCK for a number of years, but quit over a decade ago - as I said earlier I didn't see anyone 'spilling their guts about everything' but you may see it differently.

I'm not offended - I believe I mentioned that. I do however know the guy, and think your characterisation is offensive. As I said before if I was the film maker I probably would be offended.

 

[Argus]

I don't see what is wrong with either case, I suppose.

On the one hand, I come from the open source world, where everyone builds on and contributes to everyone else's code base, and things are shared freely. I like that culture, and I like the martial artists who take that approach.

But at the same time, I understand why some teachers would be quite selective of what they show to who. And I don't think it's bad to be careful about what you put out there to the general public.

Let's imagine this scenario:
You don't just want to put everything out there for the whole world to see, but you're okay with sharing a glimpse of your art. If someone sees that and wants to learn earnestly, and gains your trust, why not? In that case, you wouldn't mislead anyone, but you would perhaps hide some things or make them less obvious. We don't just go sharing our most private/personal thoughts completely unfiltered on Social Media, do we? When we share anything with the general public, we share only what we are comfortable with. That changes from person to person. Why should it be any different for teachers?

Again, I personally like teachers who are really up front and open, but I don't think that being more reserved makes one dishonest.

There's also the matter of understanding. Basically, the understanding and interpretation of pretty much anything gets watered down, butchered, misinterpreted, and misrepresented the moment it reaches the public sphere. I think there's a lot to be said for keeping certain things among a tight circle of people who can understand and appreciate it, and also preserve that thing as it is supposed to be.

It's kind of like the works of pretty much any famous thinker ever. Take any famous philosopher, and read their original work, as opposed to what others write about them, and you'll quickly realize that the majority of ink spilled about them is written by people with only a superficial knowledge of the subject, or some particular agenda, and this feeds on itself with every reinterpretation built upon reinterpretations.

Some things just require a greater level of commitment to truly understand, and sharing those things in an indiscriminate and public way can backfire, if what you are concerned about is the continued integrity of the thing itself.

It depends largely on the nature of the thing, and the purpose of the teacher.

 

[Argus]

I have never seen any straight punch that punch this way.

This is very common in Wing Chun, and I've seen it in other arts as well. It's a cutting punch. The elbow remains low and bent because of the range, and because it protects you. You can deflect a low punch and hit at the same time by taking the low line, almost like a jum sao on the way in. It's not so great against extended high punches of course, because the lines and distances are all wrong, but in that case it can still occupy center and set you up for an arm bar.

 

[geezer]

....if you hold something precious you don't just dish it out to anyone who thinks they are entitled to it.

I think we mis-understood each other earlier. I actually agree with your position as quoted above. I don't expect anybody to just give away their best stuff to a casual student. You teach them ...or you don't. Or more likely, you show them something, but not everything, should be honest about it.

But you don't lie and deliberately teach them incorrect or misleading material while happily taking their money, unless maybe they are such a total jerk that they have it coming. And I think we can agree on that!

 

[geezer]

I have never seen any straight punch that punch this way.

The main difference between this and the more typical way you might see this lap-da or jut-da delivered is the forearm and hand position. Normally in my lineage the fist would be vertical, especially at this level and in this application. The ulnar side of the forearm is down so it can cut across the top of your opponent's arm allowing your arm to wedge in and over your opponent.

 

[drop bear]

Some things just require a greater level of commitment to truly understand, and sharing those things in an indiscriminate and public way can backfire, if what you are concerned about is the continued integrity of the thing itself.

But you can either learn that sweep or that pivot pretty easily off guys who are better at it. And who will teach it to you because showing someone a step or a sweep isn't as big a deal to them.

 

[APL76]

"guys who are better at it".

Don't underestimate Kwok Wan Ping. Before he met Sum Nung he was already a very experienced martial artist and some sort of wrestling champion in China and more than willing to fight on the spot. Indeed, the way he met Sum Nung was, according to what I heard anyway, he walked up as though he wanted to meet Sum Nung then out of nowhere went for a takedown. Sum Nung floored him so Kwok jumped up and said something to the effect of "wow, you are really good, will you be my sifu". Apparently Sum Nung wasn't too impressed so told hi to go away. It took Kwok a while to convince Sum Nung to teach him. He was a bad a@#. Hell, when he escaped China he did it by SWIMMING to Hong Kong. He is pretty old now though.

 

[APL76]

Yes, I did note and apologise for that mistake. See post #34, perhaps you missed it.



I understand what you're saying. I guess I view the videos differently; I don't see any magical secrets being shown, and I don't really understand why anyone would have a problem with Mr Kwok demonstrating whatever he sees fit in a doco. And beyond that - how do you know how long they've known each other?



I did - several times. Here goes again though.



You bet Mr Kwok was put in a position in which he feels that polite manners dictate he can't just come across like an a@#hole and tell him to go away?

And you don't think that statement implies coercion? Ok.



I have no real issue with you having your own views on keeping your secret stuff. I have no real issue with you forming strange assumptions about documentary film makers and other kung fu teachers demonstrating stuff on film; you are of course welcome to them, they are worth as much as any. I studied YM WCK for a number of years, but quit over a decade ago - as I said earlier I didn't see anyone 'spilling their guts about everything' but you may see it differently.

I'm not offended - I believe I mentioned that. I do however know the guy, and think your characterisation is offensive. As I said before if I was the film maker I probably would be offended.

I don't know what you think you are reading in that thing you quoted from me earlier but that isn't about coercion and there is not a word about anyone tricking anyone of being sneaky and having ulterior motives.

It's a comment on the social situation in which politeness dictates a particular course of action, after all, unless one is of diminished intellectual capabilities it should easily be understood that Kwok was as much a party to the meeting as the other dude. It does, as the saying goes, take two to tango. There's not a word about coercion there, or the other nonsense you attributed to me.

 

[APL76]

I think we mis-understood each other earlier. I actually agree with your position as quoted above. I don't expect anybody to just give away their best stuff to a casual student. You teach them ...or you don't. Or more likely, you show them something, but not everything, should be honest about it.

But you don't lie and deliberately teach them incorrect or misleading material while happily taking their money, unless maybe they are such a total jerk that they have it coming. And I think we can agree on that!

I think that's it. When one takes a student they also take the responsibility to teach them properly. Anyone who is an outsider however, they get what they are given. If they become an "insider" as it were, then they will be taught properly.

But there are also other considerations re teaching and getting to know someone. during the "getting to know you stage" one might be taught stuff but it wouldn't be to the same depth or level of detail. Which, given the progression of learning, providing that level of detail would be a waste of time anyway in many cases. Most of it would go over a student's head. It would be more just keep pushing them in the right direction but still not laying it all out in one go.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

A: Dear master! Can you teach me how to do technique X?
B: You should do technique X as ... .
A: Can you spar with me so you can use technique X on me?
B: ...

When you give your student the wrong information, how can you hide your secret if your student challenges you?

 

[obi_juan_salami]

A: Dear master! Can you teach me how to do technique X?
B: You should do technique X as ... .
A: Can you spar with me so you can use technique X on me?
B: ...

When you give your student the wrong information, how can you hide your secret if your student challenges you?

if you are challenging your teacher to fights id say you have bigger problems than just learning technique x. such as 'growing up'

also after you little fight technique x might be the last thing you ever learn from the guy.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

if you are challenging your teacher to fights id say you have bigger problems than just learning technique x. such as 'growing up'

If a teacher spars with his students all the time, it's very difficult for that teacher to hide his secret from his students.

 

[Argus]

A: Dear master! Can you teach me how to do technique X?
B: You should do technique X as ... .
A: Can you spar with me so you can use technique X on me?
B: ...

When you give your student the wrong information, how can you hide your secret if your student challenges you?

I agree, BUT... I think you're making assumptions. All we know is what he shared publicly in the video. He could have very well told the guy afterwards a lot more that we don't see.

 

[obi_juan_salami]

If a teacher spars with his students all the time, it's very difficult for that teacher to hide his secret.

Okay well you said challenge so i assumed a fight.

some teachers would rather lose to you than give you what you want. its called martial virtue. you cant make someone teach you.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I agree, BUT... I think you're making assumptions. All we know is what he shared publicly in the video. He could have very well told the guy afterwards a lot more that we don't see.

I'm not talking about that video. I'm just saying that a teacher's secret is not that easy to hide if that teacher spars with his students.

 

[Argus]

I'm not talking about that video. I'm just saying that a teacher's secret is not that easy to hide if that teacher spars with his students.

But those are his students, whom he should already trust. Why would he hide things from them?
I agree that, generally, hiding things from students is not nice. Trust is a two way street, and anyone who's overly secretive towards their own students may not actually have the skill that they claim to have. Who would they even train with to keep their skills sharp?

My point is that we were talking about the video, and it's obviously meant for the public.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

some teachers would rather lose to you than give you what you want. its called martial virtue. you cant make someone teach you.

When someone gets into a fight, his body will react exactly the way as he is trained.

 

[APL76]

I'm not talking about that video. I'm just saying that a teacher's secret is not that easy to hide if that teacher spars with his students.

Why are you assuming that a teacher withholds "secrets" from students?

When I teach my students I withhold a lot from them, but none of it is a secret. I withhold stuff that they are not ready for. Its not withholding secrets, its teaching at a level appropriate to the student's needs. My sifu does it with me, I do it with my students; I'd say any teacher worth their salt does it in whatever field they teach in, not just martial arts.

What do you expect? A new student walks in, never done martial arts before and so you show them all the forms and associated techniques and drills and then do some full contact sparring all in the first 2 hour lesson? If we don't do that we are withholding secrets?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

hiding things from students is not nice.

That's my main point. Thanks for saying that for me.

 

[obi_juan_salami]

When someone gets into a fight, his body will react exactly the way as he is trained.

so by your logic training gives you no control at all over how your body reacts? you sir are a funny man.