wado ryu kata

[Liam Digby]

Hello Casper,
Just so that we're not at cross purposes, you said:

"As far as I know the kihon kumite and ohyo kumite of Ohtsuka sensei are not related to the karate kata in origin."

I'm with you as regards Kihon Gumite, but when you talk of Ohyo Gumite are you thinking of the Ohyo Gumite found in the syllabus of Tatsuo Suzuki (No. 1 - 8) and constructed by master Suzuki based upon his time training under master Ohtsuka, or are you thinking of what are referred to as kumite gata (No. 1 -36)?

Also;
"I think these yakusoku kumites are very (mainland) japanese and the kata's are Okinawan in origin."

Yes, I believe you are right, but isn't it interesting to examine how Ohtsuka used the katas to match his own ideas, and the katas do match up to the Kumites. One of the Senseis I trained under showed me how the kata moves were applied and then developed, but not by using them exactly how they were in the kata, which he said was a convenience tool to make the kata flow. But instead the same moves were performed incorporating body shifting. Loads of possibilities came out of that.

You mentioned;
"In alot of the kihon kumites the first defensive (nagashi uke) move puts you in a position where you leave your (lower) body open to an attack."

Two points about that; firstly the opening move of Kihons is not meant to be defensive. The body shift enables you to take the option of putting your own counter measure in or just walking away unharmed. Whatever, you have the option. Also each time you contact with your opponent you have to think of it as an attack. A Japanese Sensei I trained with showed me that some of the Kihon moves had been sanitized and with only the smallest of adjustments they become very nasty, so much so that you couldn't practice them safely.

I had a look at that weblink but the Mpeg didn't want to cooperate. But the single still that I did get showed the sweeping hand from Pinan Yodan, and by the look of it you're from the Renmei side of the fence (Also your badge tells me the same).

More power to you.

 

[cas]

Hi Liam,

I’m not the guy on the mpeg. It’s just the only place I know on the web that has the kumite’s online as a video. Parts from the Duch-language book on kumite training by Hideo Muramatsu are online at wadoworld. http://www.wadoworld.com/technical/kumite/kumiteframes.html

If our school is affiliated it’s probably with the renmei but this isn’t something that’s very obvious. Perhaps the Dutch are funny at this. Most of the Dutch karatekas (from Wado, Shito, Goju, Shotokan and some other styles) get their dan-grades at national exams taken by the Dutch karate association (examination-style groups within the association make sure you aren’t only at a certain level at karate but also at more style specific skills). Students from our school go to seminars from both Takashima sensei and Suzuki sensei. There are also teachers in Holland that follow the teachings they had from Kono sensei.
With yakusoku kumites I meant all predescribed pair work as opposed to jiju kumite “free” pair work.
We practise Ohyo kumite 1-8.

I’m aware of (some of) the difference(s) between the training forms and the applications forms in these kumites. We get told: this is how the form is and this is a way to practice this form at full speed/ force.

Could you please explain what you mean by the move not being defensive? The way I see it the move is performed in the same manner (intention) as you would in an attack, but since this is a reaction to an attack the body shift is defensive.

Perhaps I wasn’t clear in my last post, what I meant was: the position (in say kihon kumite ipponme) leaves part of the body open to an attack, what follows is an attack to this part of the body. A similar thing happens in the first moves of pinan shodan and could happen as a follow up to the first moves in pinan yondan. What do you think?

I agree with you on what the most difficult parts of the system are. I’ve seen people using tai-sabaki in a forward movement as a reponse to an attack in a free practise situation. I’m happy if I saw the attack coming and didn’t get hit.

Casper

 

[Liam Digby]

Thank you for your reply Casper,

"Could you please explain what you mean by the move not being defensive? The way I see it the move is performed in the same manner (intention) as you would in an attack, but since this is a reaction to an attack the body shift is defensive."

"Perhaps I wasn’t clear in my last post, what I meant was: the position (in say kihon kumite ipponme) leaves part of the body open to an attack, what follows is an attack to this part of the body. A similar thing happens in the first moves of pinan shodan and could happen as a follow up to the first moves in pinan yondan. What do you think?"

Yes you are right the move is performed in the same manner (intention) as you would in attack. You are responding to an attack and as priority you have to move the threatened area off line while making space for your self to operate and not losing any significant distance. But that front hand can attack the attacker's arm as in kumite gata and one of the Tanto dori opening moves I can think of. The front hand that is normally used for wedging can be easily addapted to strike while still maintaining the integrity of the first evasion.

As for part of the body being exposed to attack; well the attacker has to change either his line or his distance if he is to execute a successful follow up technique, in short, his options are limited. It could also be said that his attack area is limited and he is being set up.

Pinan Shodan, well. As far as I have come across nobody has tried to apply a Wado application for the opening move done exactly and literally as it is done in the kata. The applications for the first move always involve Irimi and making the angle narrow while sliding into the gap supplied, to close in with the opponent. Also,as you probably know in the applications the blocks generally only occur while the arm is in its way to do something else. in the case of Pinan Shodan, I would compare the link between the first and second move as similar to the application to the move prior to the knee strike in Pinan Yodan, but with the addition of the dropping elbow from the right arm (notice I say elbow not fist!).

The first move of Pinan Yodan is best explained by Kumite Gata Ipponme.

Cheers

 

[Deathtrap101]

Ok, unless this has changed recently, these are the official Renshikan Grading Requirements up to first Kyu. Forgive any spelling errors.

Yellow-
Kihon Kata Ichi
Zenshin Kotei
Heian Nidan

study content: Te waza(also known under another name that is fleeting to me now. It's the 27 basic hand movements.) Kihon Dosa 1-4.

Orange-
Kihon ata Ni,
Shi Ho Hai
Heian Shodan

SC: Ten Shin Happo
Empi-no-kata
Shime-no-kata
Kihon Keri 1&2

Green-
Shi Ho Wari
Seisan
Heian sandan

SC: Tenshin
Rohai Sho (Chito)
Kihon Keri 3
Tai Sabaki

Blue-
Kihon Kata San
Nisei shi
Heian Yodan&Godan

SC:Kihon Bo 1-14
Kihon Bo Kata 1

Brown-
Bassai Dai(JKF)
Rohai(Chito)
Ju Go No Waza
Jion(Shito)

SC: Kihon Bo Kata 2
Kumi Bo
Rinten-Hanten


Now this is stuff i have on a paper, i left some of the stuff out that weren't kata's(kumite and bunkai stuff)(unless i mistakenly did because i didnt know it was something els)

I know the sequences for about 20 differant kata's listed and not listed on here. But i only "Know" a few of them(dont quizz me on them).

I am a certificated fourth kyu.

 

[wadokai_indo]

In my Dojo, we mostly follow JKF-Wadokai syllabus, but we kind of keeping an open mind regarding the syllabus, so the Kata list are like this:

Canonical Kata:

Pinan Shodan, Nidan, Sandan, Yondan, Godan
Kushanku
Naihanchi
Seishan
Chinto

Deutero-Canonica:

Bassai
Rouhai
Wanshu
Niseishi
Jitte
Jion
Suparimpei

Pseudepigrapha/Apocryphal: (are supposed to have come from Otsuka sensei, but disputed. It is more like someone took these Kata from other style and change the movements to fit into Wado-style).

Unsu
Matsumura Rohai
Gojushiho

Paired Kata's created by Otsuka sensei himself:

Kumitegata 1-10 (some versions says 1-36)
Yakusoku Kihon Kumite 1-10

Paired Kata's derived from Shindo Yoshin-ryu Jujutsu:

Idori 1-5 (in other version 1-10)
Tantodori 1-7 (in other version 1-10)
Shinken Shirahadori 1-5

Lastly, these are supposed to be the Jujutsu techniques that WAS part of official Wado-ryu syllabus (when it was still known as Wado-ryu Jujutsu Kenpo):

Keisatsu Gijutsu (arresting techniques) 1-14
Fujin Goshinjutsu (women self-defense) 1-5
Tachiaigata (throwing Kata) 1-14

There is also Raitaidori (choking techniques?), Sakkatsu Jizaigata (saving and killing techniques) and other things listed in the official syllabus, but to this day we never learned it.

I think my website contains some videoclips of Otsuka sensei demonstrating Jujutsu, and also pictures of some Japanese shihans doing their thing. the text is mostly in Indonesian, unfortunately. But just have a go and click anywhere you like

The URL is here www.geocities.com/wadokai_indonesia

Have fun trying!


Ben Haryo