Vigilantism in OH, is this acceptable?
- Thread starter OULobo
- Start date
Just to help you play devil's advocate a little, you're right. These are startling statistics and the major symptom of disease internationally. Visual programming is a powerful and frightening thing which seeds alternative behavior - that's what advertising is all about.hardheadjarhead said:
Your powerful statement above speaks to many issues, one of which is the major stigma and lack of personal and psychological counselling and therapy. Even with the advent of the awareness of physchological, psychiatric and developmental issues, this continues to carry extreme dogmatic effects and the lack of affordable services and insurance's willingness to pay for such doesn't assist the regular Joe or Jane with a bit of a peeping fetish.
Further, it is ironic that the mother to this 5-year-old is an exotic dancer - a *ahem* "career" solely based on voyeurism and reward for exploitation. I'm reasonably sure that, given more than one person in this vigilante mob was involved in this line of work, resentment and anger and so many other things related to being a stripper played into their reaction of this Tom's fantastic offense (i.e. fantistic - that of fantasy).
So many cans of worms we can open here, but the bottom line as far as I'm concerned is that this could and should have been handled in a more legal way, and the crime against the daughter has only been capitalized upon by this mother's irresponsibility and lack of courage to face the authorities stoned.
hardheadjarhead
Senior Master
Honestly, I'm not playing the role of "Devil's Advocate" nor am I simply throwing out facts, as OULobo stated. What I was offering to the members of the thread was insight into some of the intricacies of some emotional/psychological disorders.
What we fail to do in our culture is get to the root of such problems and effectively treat them...if they're indeed treatable. We respond viscerally (quite understandable) and we call for punishment. In the case of a sociopathic rapist or child molester, I see no redemption and would prefer they never be released. In the case of lesser paraphilias, treatment might well be appropriate.
Let's take a look at two other emotional disorders that might be treatable. Froetterism and exhibitionism. The former is where a person "cops a feel" of an adult stranger in a public place. The latter is, of course, "flashing".
Both of these are treatable, provided they're not symptomatic of a more dangerous disorder. Do we treat these guys, or merely put them away until they're too old to do anything? If we put them for a limited time in a violent prison environment, their problems will likely be magnified.
Getting back to the thread--had this group of people encountered a flasher of a froetterist who had fondled or flashed the mother, I don't doubt they might have beaten him into a coma. I'm not sure they needed much of an excuse at all.
Regards,
Steve
What we fail to do in our culture is get to the root of such problems and effectively treat them...if they're indeed treatable. We respond viscerally (quite understandable) and we call for punishment. In the case of a sociopathic rapist or child molester, I see no redemption and would prefer they never be released. In the case of lesser paraphilias, treatment might well be appropriate.
Let's take a look at two other emotional disorders that might be treatable. Froetterism and exhibitionism. The former is where a person "cops a feel" of an adult stranger in a public place. The latter is, of course, "flashing".
Both of these are treatable, provided they're not symptomatic of a more dangerous disorder. Do we treat these guys, or merely put them away until they're too old to do anything? If we put them for a limited time in a violent prison environment, their problems will likely be magnified.
Getting back to the thread--had this group of people encountered a flasher of a froetterist who had fondled or flashed the mother, I don't doubt they might have beaten him into a coma. I'm not sure they needed much of an excuse at all.
Regards,
Steve
hardheadjarhead
Senior Master
shesulsa said:
I didn't take any offense, Shesulsa.
MJ, I don't think OULobo is saying no crime was committed. I think he's saying that the crime didn't warrant such a vicious street punishment. No court would have sentenced this peeper to an anal raping with a stick and a beating of such severity.
The attackers here will get due process. The peeper might not live long enough to ever see a courtroom.
Regards,
Steve
OP
OP
mj-hi-yah said:
No, just as HHJH said, I was saying that his crime was not on the same level as the applied punishment of near fatal beating and anal raping, and that despite how many "what if's" we want to apply, he didn't actually commit to any of them except public indecency and vouyerism(sp).
OP
OP
Update:
http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/cuyahoga/1093347022303690.xml
Brief: The victim is now in recovery at the hospital, and the police, armed with a video that shows everything, say they don't believe the masturbation claim. The victim is a medical patient, that was prone to seizures before the attack, that cause him to enter a fuge' like state and wander around in an incoherent daze. Evidence points to him being in this condition when the attackers came upon him.
The article details the police position, the victim's initial condition and current recovery, the recent media reaction, an account of the night of the attack by the victim's live-in girlfriend and a discription of the victim's medical condition.
http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/cuyahoga/1093347022303690.xml
Brief: The victim is now in recovery at the hospital, and the police, armed with a video that shows everything, say they don't believe the masturbation claim. The victim is a medical patient, that was prone to seizures before the attack, that cause him to enter a fuge' like state and wander around in an incoherent daze. Evidence points to him being in this condition when the attackers came upon him.
The article details the police position, the victim's initial condition and current recovery, the recent media reaction, an account of the night of the attack by the victim's live-in girlfriend and a discription of the victim's medical condition.
Flatlander
Grandmaster
So the guys who beat him made it up as justification? Well, hopefully they get theirs in court.
OP
OP
Disclaimer: I'm sure the facts are not entirly out, but I'm going to jump the gun and pose a few questions.
So now my question is; Now that we have a few more facts, how valid are some of the initial negative opinions and comments that were leveled against this man, in regards to him being a pervert and molester? Did the viceral reaction of people to a possible sexual deviant associated to children cause an initial unreasonable reaction that was unjust and possibly dangerous to this man, even after the inital threat to his life, the attackers, had passed? Was he judged by the public on an emotional reaction before he could even speak or before the facts were known? More importantly is that what actually happened in a physical incarnation during his attack?
These questions are not as relevent here on this thread, where most of the posters condemned the actions of the attackers, even with their assumed motivation. The popular media (read Montel, Dr.Phil and the tabloids) however, initially posed this man as a pervert and sexual deviant, and came close to praising the actions of the attackers as acceptable vigilanty justice and a beneficial preventative measure against the remotely possible sexual attack of the child. Now this man has to deal with a nation that still views him, however unjustifiably, as a sexual predator of some sort, despite the fact that the only thing that is truly clear here is that he was indeed a victim.
Just a note, but the guy had a crushed nose, two eyes swollen shut, a crushed trachea that required him to have a ventilator and feeding tube, a broken jaw, and his features were so jumbled from the beating that he was unrecognisable from a recent picture and his dentures were kicked out of his mouth and landed yards away. The man's face is a mass of bruises, contusions, lacerations, stitches crushed cartilage and rearranged features; and, according to him, he doesn't even know what happened, he just woke up in the hospital that way.
Lord knows I could be wrong and he could be lying, but right now it doesn't look that way and that type of damage is inexcusible even if I am wrong.
End rant.
So now my question is; Now that we have a few more facts, how valid are some of the initial negative opinions and comments that were leveled against this man, in regards to him being a pervert and molester? Did the viceral reaction of people to a possible sexual deviant associated to children cause an initial unreasonable reaction that was unjust and possibly dangerous to this man, even after the inital threat to his life, the attackers, had passed? Was he judged by the public on an emotional reaction before he could even speak or before the facts were known? More importantly is that what actually happened in a physical incarnation during his attack?
These questions are not as relevent here on this thread, where most of the posters condemned the actions of the attackers, even with their assumed motivation. The popular media (read Montel, Dr.Phil and the tabloids) however, initially posed this man as a pervert and sexual deviant, and came close to praising the actions of the attackers as acceptable vigilanty justice and a beneficial preventative measure against the remotely possible sexual attack of the child. Now this man has to deal with a nation that still views him, however unjustifiably, as a sexual predator of some sort, despite the fact that the only thing that is truly clear here is that he was indeed a victim.
Just a note, but the guy had a crushed nose, two eyes swollen shut, a crushed trachea that required him to have a ventilator and feeding tube, a broken jaw, and his features were so jumbled from the beating that he was unrecognisable from a recent picture and his dentures were kicked out of his mouth and landed yards away. The man's face is a mass of bruises, contusions, lacerations, stitches crushed cartilage and rearranged features; and, according to him, he doesn't even know what happened, he just woke up in the hospital that way.
Lord knows I could be wrong and he could be lying, but right now it doesn't look that way and that type of damage is inexcusible even if I am wrong.
End rant.
So, a group of drunk stoners go out, find someone helpless, assault him, then come up with a story to 'explain' their actions. Sexual preditor's pretty good. That'll get folks riled up. Child sexual deviant is about the deepest one can find, next to maybe child necrophiliac. (As an aside..which is more disgusting? Child necorphilia or animal necrophilia? Maybe puppy necrophilia combined with a few other philias?)
The dirt rags run with the story, and suddenly they are 'heros', not 'criminals'.
Lets assume for a moment they are telling the truth.
Was he physically threatening, harming or otherwise traumatizing his 'victim'?
Doesn't sound like he was.
Having spent a year in Parma, which is close to North Royalton I can tell you they have some very effective police departments. The size of the town is small so a response would have only taken a few minutes for qualified LEO to arrive and take care of the situation.
I can't believe the attackers. Especially not after they returned several times to the attack. Regardless of what the victim was doing, he did not deserve what he got. We have laws in the country. They should be severely dealt with.
I'm thinking with a stick.
I hate to think I might someday step behind a tree to answer natures call and receive a crippling beating from a drunk high gang of scumsucking stoners in return.
Hang em all. Let the gods sort em all out.
The dirt rags run with the story, and suddenly they are 'heros', not 'criminals'.
Lets assume for a moment they are telling the truth.
Was he physically threatening, harming or otherwise traumatizing his 'victim'?
Doesn't sound like he was.
Having spent a year in Parma, which is close to North Royalton I can tell you they have some very effective police departments. The size of the town is small so a response would have only taken a few minutes for qualified LEO to arrive and take care of the situation.
I can't believe the attackers. Especially not after they returned several times to the attack. Regardless of what the victim was doing, he did not deserve what he got. We have laws in the country. They should be severely dealt with.
I'm thinking with a stick.
I hate to think I might someday step behind a tree to answer natures call and receive a crippling beating from a drunk high gang of scumsucking stoners in return.
Hang em all. Let the gods sort em all out.
hardheadjarhead
Senior Master
It was interesting seeing some of the responses of the people on this thread to the notions that this man was a child molester.
I recall fifteen years ago a severely mentally handicapped man walking into the restroom at a store I worked at. He sat down on a toilet and started masturbating--all the while talking to himself. There was no door on the stall.
He wasn't doing it for sexual gratification. It was a compulsive response to stress. He'd just had a fight with another member of his group home (who were shopping in the store together) and running to the bathroom and fondling himself was a way he dealt with it. He didn't care who saw him, and didn't care if people saw him.
Had a child witnessed this and told his father, what would the reaction have been? Violence? Charges of perversion? A call for a lynching?
When I read the above article I thought of several alternate explanations for what happened prior to this beating:
-He might have been passed out in the bushes after drinking, or was relieving himself, and the mother misconstrued the situation or intentionally misrepresented it.
-The mother had issues with the guy in question--perhaps he was peeping at her, and not her child--and she wanted him hammered. Perhaps she knew him and he owed her money or had wronged her on a previous occasion.
-Maybe the guy in question was indeed looking at the child and fondling himself, but had an I.Q. so low or was psychotic to the point as to impair his judgement.
-Perhaps the alleged peeper was a street person sitting up against the wall and behind the bushes in order to "hide" while he drank his Thunderbird. As irrational as this seems, one must keep in mind that fully 60% of the homeless suffer from schizophrenia, bi-polar disorder, or some other form of mental illness. Often they're victimized by other homeless people or bottom feeders such as described here.
We jump too quickly to judgement at times. Its the risk of our species having greater cognitive powers than other species. At least, we're thought to. There are times where I wonder.
Regards,
Steve
I recall fifteen years ago a severely mentally handicapped man walking into the restroom at a store I worked at. He sat down on a toilet and started masturbating--all the while talking to himself. There was no door on the stall.
He wasn't doing it for sexual gratification. It was a compulsive response to stress. He'd just had a fight with another member of his group home (who were shopping in the store together) and running to the bathroom and fondling himself was a way he dealt with it. He didn't care who saw him, and didn't care if people saw him.
Had a child witnessed this and told his father, what would the reaction have been? Violence? Charges of perversion? A call for a lynching?
When I read the above article I thought of several alternate explanations for what happened prior to this beating:
-He might have been passed out in the bushes after drinking, or was relieving himself, and the mother misconstrued the situation or intentionally misrepresented it.
-The mother had issues with the guy in question--perhaps he was peeping at her, and not her child--and she wanted him hammered. Perhaps she knew him and he owed her money or had wronged her on a previous occasion.
-Maybe the guy in question was indeed looking at the child and fondling himself, but had an I.Q. so low or was psychotic to the point as to impair his judgement.
-Perhaps the alleged peeper was a street person sitting up against the wall and behind the bushes in order to "hide" while he drank his Thunderbird. As irrational as this seems, one must keep in mind that fully 60% of the homeless suffer from schizophrenia, bi-polar disorder, or some other form of mental illness. Often they're victimized by other homeless people or bottom feeders such as described here.
We jump too quickly to judgement at times. Its the risk of our species having greater cognitive powers than other species. At least, we're thought to. There are times where I wonder.
Regards,
Steve
Holy guacamole.
Another incident that makes me cringe and gag (see also the thread on tasing the 9-year-old).
Okay - I am taking applications for permanent, life-long bodyguard for my autistic son - any takers?
>>>...walks away, shaking her head...<<<
Morbidly,
Georgia
Another incident that makes me cringe and gag (see also the thread on tasing the 9-year-old).
Okay - I am taking applications for permanent, life-long bodyguard for my autistic son - any takers?
>>>...walks away, shaking her head...<<<
Morbidly,
Georgia
RandomPhantom700
Master of Arts
Just as an aside, isn't this the same philosophy (only to a much grosser extreme) that the assailants were following when they repeatedly beat and sodomized the guy they perceived as violating someone else?Kaith Rustaz said:
I agree that they were probably just finding an excuse for their aggression, but still.....
You're right...That's probably going a bit too far.
My apologies.
:asian:
My apologies.
:asian:
RandomPhantom700
Master of Arts
Whoa, clarification needed. The "grosser extreme" refers to the assailant's decision, not yours.RandomPhantom700 said:
Carry on.
JPR
Green Belt
Context is important. If you walk up on me and I am straddling a woman on the ground pounding on her and ripping at her clothing am I: a) Assulting her, b) attempting to rape her, c) attempting to save her from the heart attack she is having, or d) trying to beat out the flames that were burning her? Do you know? Only the context brings meaning to the action. The action could be noble, or ignoble. Only the context will tell.hardheadjarhead said:
As to vigilantism, once we break the law to enforce the law we risk loosing the law altogether. Sure, there are crimes that enflame people's emotion (crimes against innocent children do it for me, I hate to see a child hurt by the selfish actions of an adult), and there are cases where justice is thwarted by the "system". To use these, or other, excuses to justify our dealing out justice is simply to say we are each a law to ourselves. What happens when I look at you and decide that what you are doing is wrong and decide to punish you for it? That is why, as a society, we decided upon a set of laws.
JPR
dearnis.com
Master Black Belt
Coming onto the thread late, but a few short thoughts...
Lots of horrified reaction to the 5 year old's living conditions and the cast of supporting players ( adult "dating" a minor, etc.) Gang, I have worked plenty of neighborhoods where this is normal everyday life. You do what you can, yo try to make certain the kids are clean, warm, dry, and fed, and leave knowing that nothing will change because, for those who live like this, it is normal. It is what they know.
As to the man outside the window; if the tape caught the assault it should have documented the masturbation or non-masturbation as well. Steve summarized the issues relatively well; I am not going to add much as I know he has done a good bit of research and has directed me to some books that have been both helpful and disturbing. (as an aside, if you want book recs PM Steve; Steve- NO MORE AMAZON LINKS!!!!)
I disagree with the treatment stance simply because a misdemeanor indecent exposure/peeping charge is seldom enough leverage to force an offender into a functioning treatment program. Treatment may work, but the patient has to want to be cured...
There is a well-established pattern of peepers evolving into burglars then into rapists.
The reaction of the crowd, well, how can you justify any of it. As punishment goes, no matter how wrong the alleged peeper was, it is not the place of the mob (or the police) to punish.
No need to waste space on their choice of actions...
I have, on occaision, taken custody of robbery or burglary suspects who were detained by their intended victims. In a few cases the suspects were a bit worse for wear, but nothing that could be deemed unreasonable, much less illegal or immoral.
Lots of horrified reaction to the 5 year old's living conditions and the cast of supporting players ( adult "dating" a minor, etc.) Gang, I have worked plenty of neighborhoods where this is normal everyday life. You do what you can, yo try to make certain the kids are clean, warm, dry, and fed, and leave knowing that nothing will change because, for those who live like this, it is normal. It is what they know.
As to the man outside the window; if the tape caught the assault it should have documented the masturbation or non-masturbation as well. Steve summarized the issues relatively well; I am not going to add much as I know he has done a good bit of research and has directed me to some books that have been both helpful and disturbing. (as an aside, if you want book recs PM Steve; Steve- NO MORE AMAZON LINKS!!!!)
I disagree with the treatment stance simply because a misdemeanor indecent exposure/peeping charge is seldom enough leverage to force an offender into a functioning treatment program. Treatment may work, but the patient has to want to be cured...
There is a well-established pattern of peepers evolving into burglars then into rapists.
The reaction of the crowd, well, how can you justify any of it. As punishment goes, no matter how wrong the alleged peeper was, it is not the place of the mob (or the police) to punish.
No need to waste space on their choice of actions...
I have, on occaision, taken custody of robbery or burglary suspects who were detained by their intended victims. In a few cases the suspects were a bit worse for wear, but nothing that could be deemed unreasonable, much less illegal or immoral.
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