Very High Rank in Many Arts?!?

[masherdong]

Congrats on the catch! CPT Kirk was, in fact, finally a master of said testing method!

Yeah, because he cheated!

 

[Kosho Gakkusei]

One important thing to consider is the practitioners age and how long they've been training. It is entirely possible for someone to have the equivalent of 5th - 7th degree in multiple different arts if they've been studying for over 40 years, especially if they've been teaching martial arts for a living for several decades. More than two 8th or higher would be very unlikely although not entirely impossible. Having a 10th degree in more than one unrelated art is highly suspect, in my opinion. For that matter, too many people are claiming 10th degrees - they should be highly uncommon.

 

[Grenadier]

While there are quite a few folks who tend to exaggerate their accomplishments, having multiple high rankings isn't entirely unusual amongst the legitimate folks.

It's entirely possible for someone to have a high dan rankings in more than one system. However, this usually also means that they've been training for decades, and that they've shown an exemplary level of dedication. My old Karate teacher, for example, holds a 9th dan in Karate and a 7th dan in Ju Jutsu, and both are very, very legit. The old dojo still offers both Karate and Ju Jutsu, and anyone training in either art there will get a good education.

It's also possible to test for rankings with the USA-NKF or WKF. Thus, someone who has a 7th dan in Shotokan Karate, could certainly test for a 6th dan with the USA-NKF or WKF, if he wanted a somewhat "universal" ranking. Thus, if someone held high rankings in two systems already, and tested with the USA-NKF, he could certainly hold three high dan rankings.

In the end, though, I wouldn't worry about who has what ranking, as long as you feel that you're getting good training, and if you have faith in your instructor and system.

 

[MJS]

On another thread dealing with McDojos and dubious quality instruction, MJS posted that it raised a "red flag" when an instructor claimed very high ranks in multiple arts. Now, there are dedicated individuals that have legitemately achieved high ranks in two or three martial arts. And there are also high level masters who, because of their skill and experience, have been able to adapt useful skills from other styles without devoting the many years it would take to become a "master" of each system. But, on the whole, I have to agree with MJS's comment. When I pass the neighborhood "McDojo" and see signs advertising instruction in "Karate, Kung-fu, Kenpo, Taekwondo, Kickboxing, Muay Tai, MMA and Ninjutsu", I don't know if I should laugh or be ill. And I feel the same way when someone starts claiming 6th, 7th and 8th dans in five different systems. I suppose there may be a few such individuals out there, but they can't be common. What do the rest of you think?

Just to expand a bit further on my comment. I'll preface this by saying that I'm all about the training and learning, not about the rank. I've never been a rank chaser and never will be. I leave that to my teachers. When they feel I'm ready, I'll test. I've always stressed that when I go up for a test, I want to be ready.

Now, is it possible for someone to hold BB level rank in more than one art? Of course. The difference is, is that its usually not really high. Example: A friend of mine who runs a small school is a 4th in Kenpo. During his Kenpo training, he was cross training in Arnis, which he holds a Black Belt. He is training in BJJ and is currently at Purple Belt level.

What raises the flag, IMHO, is when you see someone who holds rank in 6 arts, with a 7th in one, 8th in another, a few 6ths, etc. Every school will vary on the time between each rank, but lets say its 2yrs between 1st and 2nd degree black, 3 between 2nd and 3rd, etc. Now factor in the persons age. Is it possible to be 25 and be a 7th degree? Some will say that it depends on the age of the person when they first started. So if they start at 4yrs old....well, now you start getting into the McDojo thing again, because now you could see a 10yr old black belt. So by the time they're 16 they could be 2nd or 3rd. Sorry, IMHO, I can't justify a 16yr old 3rd degree black belt.

People seem to think that having high rank will make others go ooohhhh and ahhhhh. Sorry, to disappoint them, but I won't be saying that. What impresses me is the persons skill, how well they understand the material, how well they can teach the material, and how well they can execute the material. Impress me with what you can do, not the number of stripes on your belt.

Mike

 

[BrandonLucas]

I think what alot of people do is to attend seminars of different MA's, and some of these seminars will award rank to some of the people attend.

I have heard of this happening to several people who claim rank in several different MA's that they have only spent a few hours learning....then their black belt rank in their original art carries over, so that they are considered a "black belt" in the art for which they are attending the seminar.

 

[MJS]

Eugene Sedeno is a 9th in kajukenbo and a 9th in Shaolin kenpo

both Chow lineage arts, so thats easy to believe

Plus a master's license from Mitose

he also has a cert signed by Ed parker for a 5th Dan in EPAK, from the early 80's

some rare people can do that

in general tho?

BIG FAT HAIRY RED FLAG

I agree. What is important to take into consideration is the number of years GM Sedeno has been training vs. the number of years we see with some of the other high ranks out there. Huge difference IMO. So yes, as you said, in this case, I can certainly justify his time in and his rank.

 

[Hyper_Shadow]

IMHO, I can't justify a 16yr old 3rd degree black belt.

I think folks are missing a very keen point about age. I train hard and train a lot. In my opinion I've earned what I've got in terms of rank. However, my rank isn't all that important to me and neither is testing for my next one. But (big but) I'm only 21 years of age and yet I hold what I would regard as quite a high rank for my age. I'd just like to ask even if you had an exceptional student would you still not grade them to their apropriate level just based on their age? It's one thing to go on about someone spending a lot of years and gaining grades in many arts because they have an exceptional talent. On the flip side, what if they are young and have an exceptional talent and not just technical talent, I mean a well rounded knowledge base and fundamental understanding of what they are doing.
I speak from personal experience when I say I've had a lot of people look down on me based on my age in martial arts. It usually doesn't take long for them to shut up when I've demonstrated some of the small knowledge I've gathered. Fact is though, I shouldn't have to prove anything to anybody other than my students. Only then I'm reassuring them that what I am asking them to do is doable (even when they're being punished by being made to do pushups). But as for someone else who wants me to prove my grade... why? I don't go around asking everyone else to prove they're worthy of their grade who're older than me, so why should those that have had more time than me instantly have the right to be so judgemental? Just because they've been training longer?

Just my little rant. I'm young and I've still got a lot of mistakes to make, but fact is I'm a martial artist through and through, and my age has nothing to do with that. So guys what are your opinions on that? Does it all boil down to ageism?

 

[Brian S]

I truly believe you should be a certain age to hold a certain rank.

16yrs old minimum for shodan

18yrs old minimum for nidan

21 yrs old minimum for san dan

etc.....

These are just standard for me and my school. It doesn't happen very often,but it could happen. If someone has started at a young age, worked hard and stuck with it then they should be rewarded for it and I commend them. There aren't too many young people who are committed enough to do this though.

 

[BrandonLucas]

I think folks are missing a very keen point about age. I train hard and train a lot. In my opinion I've earned what I've got in terms of rank. However, my rank isn't all that important to me and neither is testing for my next one. But (big but) I'm only 21 years of age and yet I hold what I would regard as quite a high rank for my age. I'd just like to ask even if you had an exceptional student would you still not grade them to their apropriate level just based on their age? It's one thing to go on about someone spending a lot of years and gaining grades in many arts because they have an exceptional talent. On the flip side, what if they are young and have an exceptional talent and not just technical talent, I mean a well rounded knowledge base and fundamental understanding of what they are doing.
I speak from personal experience when I say I've had a lot of people look down on me based on my age in martial arts. It usually doesn't take long for them to shut up when I've demonstrated some of the small knowledge I've gathered. Fact is though, I shouldn't have to prove anything to anybody other than my students. Only then I'm reassuring them that what I am asking them to do is doable (even when they're being punished by being made to do pushups). But as for someone else who wants me to prove my grade... why? I don't go around asking everyone else to prove they're worthy of their grade who're older than me, so why should those that have had more time than me instantly have the right to be so judgemental? Just because they've been training longer?

Just my little rant. I'm young and I've still got a lot of mistakes to make, but fact is I'm a martial artist through and through, and my age has nothing to do with that. So guys what are your opinions on that? Does it all boil down to ageism?

In my honest opinion, rank is not only earned through ability, it's earned through maturity and experience.

Is a 12 year old going to have the maturity and experience to earn a 2nd dan, just the same as a 35 year old, even if they are able to complete the physical requirements on the same level?

I'm not saying age is the deciding factor here. And I'm not saying that a 12 year old couldn't have the maturity and experience to hold a 2nd dan well. I'm just saying that it would be highly unlikely, and that it should be a case-by-case basis.

The same holds true for multiple martial arts. Is someone proficient enough in Kenpo to hold a 2nd degree black belt at the same time they are able to hold a 2nd dan in TKD and a black belt in BJJ? It's not likely, but not impossible.

 

[Hyper_Shadow]

Well replied. And I think you've touched on the (in my opinion) deciding point. It's a case by case basis. You have to look at one and then one other and then one other to infinity.

 

[MJS]

I think folks are missing a very keen point about age. I train hard and train a lot. In my opinion I've earned what I've got in terms of rank. However, my rank isn't all that important to me and neither is testing for my next one.

But (big but) I'm only 21 years of age and yet I hold what I would regard as quite a high rank for my age.

For the sake of the discussion, if you don't mind me asking, what rank do you hold? Please note, I'm not intending to bash you for your reply, just looking to expand on the thread.

I'd just like to ask even if you had an exceptional student would you still not grade them to their apropriate level just based on their age? It's one thing to go on about someone spending a lot of years and gaining grades in many arts because they have an exceptional talent. On the flip side, what if they are young and have an exceptional talent and not just technical talent, I mean a well rounded knowledge base and fundamental understanding of what they are doing.

Are those people out there? Sure. But I'd say the above average are fewer than the average. Keep in mind, and yes, I know many frown upon them, but the use of a Jr. Black Belt. Many systems teach kids a condensed level of material. When they reach the Jr. BB, that is usually the time when they play 'catch up' and learn the material that they didn't learn before. They're older now, so they're ready for more, and can probably start understanding it better. But again, its not the amount of material that is important, its how well its understood, can be applied, taught, etc. Refer back to my list I gave in another post.

I speak from personal experience when I say I've had a lot of people look down on me based on my age in martial arts. It usually doesn't take long for them to shut up when I've demonstrated some of the small knowledge I've gathered. Fact is though, I shouldn't have to prove anything to anybody other than my students. Only then I'm reassuring them that what I am asking them to do is doable (even when they're being punished by being made to do pushups). But as for someone else who wants me to prove my grade... why? I don't go around asking everyone else to prove they're worthy of their grade who're older than me, so why should those that have had more time than me instantly have the right to be so judgemental? Just because they've been training longer?


Just my little rant. I'm young and I've still got a lot of mistakes to make, but fact is I'm a martial artist through and through, and my age has nothing to do with that. So guys what are your opinions on that? Does it all boil down to ageism?

Perhaps what it boils down to is the old saying of 'one bad apple ruins the bunch.' People may view others who're frauds, and lump someone who really isn't, into the same bunch. For myself, I've taught for quite some time now and I've seen some 4yr old kids, and honestly felt that they shouldn't be there. They just can't understand and perform the material. Yet I've seen others who did well. And perhaps many think that the idea of a GM or someone who has an 8th or 9th degree, would be an older person, an adult, not someone who is 25.

People nowadays tend to not like to wait. If 2 friends start at the same time, its almost expected that they should be promoted together and God forbid they're not....all hell breaks loose. Sorry, but I can't give someone rank, if they look like garbage. I don't care if they started together or if their friend is 4 belts ahead. If they look like crap, I don't rank them. If they want to go somewhere else to get it, then fine, go. I'd rather have the quality than the quantity.

I still stand by my theory. Impress me with your skill, not your rank. Alot of being a high rank isn't the number of kata or techniques you have, but your deeper understanding of the material. Have there been times when I was asked something and didn't know the answer? Of course. And I'd always seek out that answer and tell the student. But if the teacher always has to go back and seek out the source, that tells me that they don't have a good understanding. So, the 6th degree 18yo who is teaching the class is asked 10 questions through out the class. Out of the 10, he can't answer 7 questions. Same situation. Out of the 10 questions, he can't answer 1 or 2. Who has the better understanding for the rank they hold?

 

[MJS]

I truly believe you should be a certain age to hold a certain rank.

16yrs old minimum for shodan

18yrs old minimum for nidan

21 yrs old minimum for san dan

etc.....

These are just standard for me and my school. It doesn't happen very often,but it could happen. If someone has started at a young age, worked hard and stuck with it then they should be rewarded for it and I commend them. There aren't too many young people who are committed enough to do this though.

Great post!! Now, I have a question. In your school, you have a 16yr age for 1st degree. Do you have an age requirement as to when they start? What do you do if you get a 5yr old. Do you make them wait 11yrs before they get their 1st degree or do you have something like a Jr. BB to give them in the meantime?

 

[MJS]

In my honest opinion, rank is not only earned through ability, it's earned through maturity and experience.

Is a 12 year old going to have the maturity and experience to earn a 2nd dan, just the same as a 35 year old, even if they are able to complete the physical requirements on the same level?

I'm not saying age is the deciding factor here. And I'm not saying that a 12 year old couldn't have the maturity and experience to hold a 2nd dan well. I'm just saying that it would be highly unlikely, and that it should be a case-by-case basis.

The same holds true for multiple martial arts. Is someone proficient enough in Kenpo to hold a 2nd degree black belt at the same time they are able to hold a 2nd dan in TKD and a black belt in BJJ? It's not likely, but not impossible.

Good point! This, IMO, goes hand in hand with being able to teach it, understand it, apply it, etc.

 

[BrandonLucas]

For the sake of the discussion, if you don't mind me asking, what rank do you hold? Please note, I'm not intending to bash you for your reply, just looking to expand on the thread.



Are those people out there? Sure. But I'd say the above average are fewer than the average. Keep in mind, and yes, I know many frown upon them, but the use of a Jr. Black Belt. Many systems teach kids a condensed level of material. When they reach the Jr. BB, that is usually the time when they play 'catch up' and learn the material that they didn't learn before. They're older now, so they're ready for more, and can probably start understanding it better. But again, its not the amount of material that is important, its how well its understood, can be applied, taught, etc. Refer back to my list I gave in another post.




Perhaps what it boils down to is the old saying of 'one bad apple ruins the bunch.' People may view others who're frauds, and lump someone who really isn't, into the same bunch. For myself, I've taught for quite some time now and I've seen some 4yr old kids, and honestly felt that they shouldn't be there. They just can't understand and perform the material. Yet I've seen others who did well. And perhaps many think that the idea of a GM or someone who has an 8th or 9th degree, would be an older person, an adult, not someone who is 25.

People nowadays tend to not like to wait. If 2 friends start at the same time, its almost expected that they should be promoted together and God forbid they're not....all hell breaks loose. Sorry, but I can't give someone rank, if they look like garbage. I don't care if they started together or if their friend is 4 belts ahead. If they look like crap, I don't rank them. If they want to go somewhere else to get it, then fine, go. I'd rather have the quality than the quantity.

I still stand by my theory. Impress me with your skill, not your rank. Alot of being a high rank isn't the number of kata or techniques you have, but your deeper understanding of the material. Have there been times when I was asked something and didn't know the answer? Of course. And I'd always seek out that answer and tell the student. But if the teacher always has to go back and seek out the source, that tells me that they don't have a good understanding. So, the 6th degree 18yo who is teaching the class is asked 10 questions through out the class. Out of the 10, he can't answer 7 questions. Same situation. Out of the 10 questions, he can't answer 1 or 2. Who has the better understanding for the rank they hold?

I like this standard. And I don't disagree with having Jr. Blackbelts at all...it doesn't belittle those with talent, and at the same time gives them alot of the experience and some of the knowledge they are going to need for the future.

On the topic of 2 friends joining at the same time....this presents a large problem in alot of the rank issues. Doing what's right vs. doing what's profitable. The problem is that many schools will do what's most profitable, instead of doing what's right. If one of the firends excells beyond the other one, then it's only right that that student is rewarded a higher rank, and the other student stays at his/her current rank to finish learning the cirriculum for that rank.

That's why I was saying that it needs to be a case by case basis, because once you start lumping people together by age alone, you shut people who deserve the rank out.

 

[dancingalone]

I like this standard. And I don't disagree with having Jr. Blackbelts at all...it doesn't belittle those with talent, and at the same time gives them alot of the experience and some of the knowledge they are going to need for the future.

Actually it does devalue the status of a black belt when you have legions of kids wearing a dan rank when they don't know their forms nor can they even complete a proper side kick. Personally, I don't even tell my non-martial artist friends anymore that I have a black belt in TKD. The last time I did it, I got something like, "Oh really. That's cool. My six year old niece is one, too."

You don't need the belt to gain experience or knowledge. That said, the belt should mean something, and I would never award a black belt to anyone under the age of sixteen, period.

 

[BrandonLucas]

Actually it does devalue the status of a black belt when you have legions of kids wearing a dan rank when they don't know their forms nor can they even complete a proper side kick. Personally, I don't even tell my non-martial artist friends anymore that I have a black belt in TKD. The last time I did it, I got something like, "Oh really. That's cool. My six year old niece is one, too."

You don't need the belt to gain experience or knowledge. That said, the belt should mean something, and I would never award a black belt to anyone under the age of sixteen, period.

If they aren't able to complete a proper side kick and don't know their forms, then why would they be awarded blackbelt, no matter what age they are?

 

[dancingalone]

Well, Brandon, it's actually very common in my neck of the woods in Texas to see deficient child black belts. They are awarded the rank to keep the tuition payments and test fees flowing.

 

[MJS]

Actually it does devalue the status of a black belt when you have legions of kids wearing a dan rank when they don't know their forms nor can they even complete a proper side kick. Personally, I don't even tell my non-martial artist friends anymore that I have a black belt in TKD. The last time I did it, I got something like, "Oh really. That's cool. My six year old niece is one, too."

You don't need the belt to gain experience or knowledge. That said, the belt should mean something, and I would never award a black belt to anyone under the age of sixteen, period.

Bingo! You hit the nail on the head. Why did the child or adult advance, if they can't perform the basic material? Now, we all get nervous, and we all make mistakes, and yes, I'm sure there're times when someone, due to the pressure of the test, fumbles a bit, but a sidekick....thats like one of the most basic moves. So, yes, if a brown belt can't do a sidekick, the first thing I'm thinking is why the hell did they get that far in the first place???

As for the Jr. BB....again, this is going on the premise that the child has the basics, looks good doing them, but isn't old enough for full BB status. Again, that is usually the 'rank' where they stay while they learn the remainder of the BB material and at the same time, stay until they're old enough for full BB status.

I like the idea of 16 as the min. age. and frankly, I'm not fond of starting kids at 4 to begin with.

 

[dancingalone]

As for the Jr. BB....again, this is going on the premise that the child has the basics, looks good doing them, but isn't old enough for full BB status. Again, that is usually the 'rank' where they stay while they learn the remainder of the BB material and at the same time, stay until they're old enough for full BB status.

And I've seen those too, children who have generally good form, but have no reasonable expectation of defending themselves against a schoolyard bully, much less an adult intent on harming them. Do you know what I am talking about? A kick that looks nice in the air but cannot even push away a fifty lbs. heavy bag... A child that knows the choreography of the form but has no focus, no intensity. To them, the form IS a dance rather than a fight.

In my style, a black belt means you are combat effective. You might not be the toughest guy on the block, but you should have a reasonable expectation that your hard-won skills will translate into something useful on street.

 

[MJS]

I like this standard. And I don't disagree with having Jr. Blackbelts at all...it doesn't belittle those with talent, and at the same time gives them alot of the experience and some of the knowledge they are going to need for the future.

See my last post regarding the Jr. BB.

On the topic of 2 friends joining at the same time....this presents a large problem in alot of the rank issues. Doing what's right vs. doing what's profitable. The problem is that many schools will do what's most profitable, instead of doing what's right. If one of the firends excells beyond the other one, then it's only right that that student is rewarded a higher rank, and the other student stays at his/her current rank to finish learning the cirriculum for that rank.

Sadly the dollar comes first. People get upset because they're not advancing, blah, blah, blah, and what happens? They leave. So the owner who uses the school as his bread and butter loses cash, bills can't be paid, etc. so what does he do? Says screw it, and promotes them anyways. Sad but true. Lets keep the customer happy. I call bull on that and say that what really should matter is the quality, not the quantity. Some people don't want to work, they want everything spoon fed to them, and thats sad.

That's why I was saying that it needs to be a case by case basis, because once you start lumping people together by age alone, you shut people who deserve the rank out.

I still can't see the logic in giving a 10yo a 2nd degree BB.