Circling Destruction Question

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Considering that I'm just about to test for my green belt, I'm not necessarily an authority on green belt material since I've only been working it for about six months or so. However, if an opponent were to follow up with a right cross, the double parries would probably be fine because he's going to eat a hellacious left heel palm to the face if he continues his attack. Even if the parries and the back knuckle don't stop his attack, if you've done the technique correctly, you've stepped offline to so he is not likely to connect with a right because of range. I've done this technique against a bronze medalist olympic boxer and pulled it off. He did not have time to connect with a right without eating a heel palm to the face. In my humble opinion and tested by experience, an inward block is unnecessary and counterproductive to the flow of the technique.

While I'm prone to agree with you to an extent, there is one heck of an assumption being made here. That the kenpoist is faster than the "boxer".

The "boxer" here has the advantage of 1) linear attack in this model and 2) a head start on his initiative

The kenpoist has the disadvantage of 1) using circular blocks 2) trying to beat two movements with three (beat Jab-Cross with Parry-Parry-Heel Palm) and 3) trying to reverse the direction of the left hand (stop-start) and then land it on the opponent before the opponent's right (and already incoming) hand lands.

The only reason the parries work is because of a proper read of the attacks (which is what results in the bolded above). The inward block will check more variables thus minimizing the need for properly reading anything passed the initial "jab". The "flow" deals again with what's faster not with what's more effective. A cross lands quick and hard but doesn't guarantee a KO, a choke takes some time to set but guarantees a KO. So which is better? depends on the circumstance...

Man where are you at! I need to be there! You've got a father who coaches champion level wrestlers (from another post you posted), you're sparring with olympic level boxers, you've got a training paradise man! I envy that :asian: Few people can say they've tested so much of the Kenpo system 'from experience' like you post so often that you do. Glad that you post "from experience", it sure beats the "from the booK" that usually gets posted. Keep it up!

 

[jazkiljok]

Man where are you at! I need to be there! You've got a father who coaches champion level wrestlers (from another post you posted), you're sparring with olympic level boxers, you've got a training paradise man! I envy that :asian: Few people can say they've tested so much of the Kenpo system 'from experience' like you post so often that you do. Glad that you post "from experience", it sure beats the "from the booK" that usually gets posted. Keep it up!

just sidetracking here- but i'm curious, what was the bronze medalist's name?

 

[kenpohack]

While I'm prone to agree with you to an extent, there is one heck of an assumption being made here. That the kenpoist is faster than the "boxer".

The "boxer" here has the advantage of 1) linear attack in this model and 2) a head start on his initiative

The kenpoist has the disadvantage of 1) using circular blocks 2) trying to beat two movements with three (beat Jab-Cross with Parry-Parry-Heel Palm) and 3) trying to reverse the direction of the left hand (stop-start) and then land it on the opponent before the opponent's right (and already incoming) hand lands.

The only reason the parries work is because of a proper read of the attacks (which is what results in the bolded above). The inward block will check more variables thus minimizing the need for properly reading anything passed the initial "jab". The "flow" deals again with what's faster not with what's more effective. A cross lands quick and hard but doesn't guarantee a KO, a choke takes some time to set but guarantees a KO. So which is better? depends on the circumstance...

Man where are you at! I need to be there! You've got a father who coaches champion level wrestlers (from another post you posted), you're sparring with olympic level boxers, you've got a training paradise man! I envy that :asian: Few people can say they've tested so much of the Kenpo system 'from experience' like you post so often that you do. Glad that you post "from experience", it sure beats the "from the booK" that usually gets posted. Keep it up!

Well, as far as training goes, I train with jiu-jitsu fighters at a Machado affiliate school and a boxing gym. My kenpo classes are at a boxing gym where several professional and amateur fighters train. One of the coaches is a former Olympic boxer.

To address the technique, circling destruction is not against a jab. The attack is a step-through left punch (assuming you are most likely fighting a southpaw). If the attack is a step-through left puch, parrys will work just fine, actually better than an inward block because you gain borrowed force from the attack to achieve meeting force. An inward block would hinder the technique because it would reduce the power of the right back knuckle to the rib cage. By the way, no technique would work against a jab. I'm not a great boxer, but I would bet $1 that I can throw a jab too fast for almost anyone to block. Jabs are not committed attacks, so parrys and blocks are not likely to do much against them. Sparring teaches you how to defeat jabs: move out of range, move offline, keep your hands up, or counterattack.

 

[kenpohack]

just sidetracking here- but i'm curious, what was the bronze medalist's name?

Correction, I thought he was a bronze medalist...I may be wrong on that. I apologize for my misunderstanding of the facts. His name is Jason Ingwaldson. Google him if you want the facts on him.

 

[jazkiljok]

Correction, I thought he was a bronze medalist...I may be wrong on that. I apologize for my misunderstanding of the facts. His name is Jason Ingwaldson. Google him if you want the facts on him.

i'm sure Jason was a good amateur boxer-- but he never made the olympic team.

http://boxing.about.com/od/amateurs/a/oly_2004us.htm

andre dirrell was the only american to bronze in the last olympics. things haven't been great for american olympic boxing of late.

anyway- as i said, just was curious. thanks for the response.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Well, as far as training goes, I train with jiu-jitsu fighters at a Machado affiliate school and a boxing gym. My kenpo classes are at a boxing gym where several professional and amateur fighters train. One of the coaches is a former Olympic boxer.

To address the technique, circling destruction is not against a jab. The attack is a step-through left punch (assuming you are most likely fighting a southpaw). If the attack is a step-through left puch, parrys will work just fine, actually better than an inward block because you gain borrowed force from the attack to achieve meeting force. An inward block would hinder the technique because it would reduce the power of the right back knuckle to the rib cage. By the way, no technique would work against a jab. I'm not a great boxer, but I would bet $1 that I can throw a jab too fast for almost anyone to block. Jabs are not committed attacks, so parrys and blocks are not likely to do much against them. Sparring teaches you how to defeat jabs: move out of range, move offline, keep your hands up, or counterattack.

I wish you were here, I'd take that bet and that dollar too

Not too sure about that "inward block killing the borrowed force" thing. There are multiple "methods of execution" on that inward block and they all have a different effect on the target weapon and body reaction. You'll start to learn the "finesse" required soon, people 'usually' start to get into that around green and brown (I have no idea exactly why this is the case though)

Good training to you with the Machado affiliate! and good skill on that green test!, when is it? I'm pulling for you to pass with flying colors (pun intended).

salute!

 

[Doc]

I wish you were here, I'd take that bet and that dollar too

salute!

ALL DAY LONG!

 

[KenpoRonin]

i'm sure Jason was a good amateur boxer-- but he never made the olympic team.

http://boxing.about.com/od/amateurs/a/oly_2004us.htm

andre dirrell was the only american to bronze in the last olympics. things haven't been great for american olympic boxing of late.

anyway- as i said, just was curious. thanks for the response.

Jason was selected as "ATHLETE OF THE YEAR" in 1997. Others who have accomplished this award were Roy Jones Jr. & Oscar De La Hoya. Jason was rated #1 in the US in 1997,1998 and in 1999. He also won five World Championship titles and finished off with an outstanding record of 135 wins with only 6 defeats. He is in the Hall Of Fame of amateur boxing.

That is a hell of a lot better than a Good amatuer boxer. He also was a sparring partner with Floyd Mayweather Jr.

 

[Hye Kenpo Nar]

becuase the attack is coming in from farther away it is better to use a parrie, becuaseour main goal is to redirect the attack , and continue on to the first strike. doing a proper inward block at or above the elbow would take to long and messes up the flow of the technique, and if the attacker knows what he/she is doing they can possibly redirest their strike or even counter to your block.

 

[Doc]

becuase the attack is coming in from farther away it is better to use a parrie, becuaseour main goal is to redirect the attack , and continue on to the first strike. doing a proper inward block at or above the elbow would take to long and messes up the flow of the technique, and if the attacker knows what he/she is doing they can possibly redirest their strike or even counter to your block.

Simply, wrong sir. Without width control from a properly executed hard block, the second punch will be difficult to avoid. Those who advocate parries in this technique, probably do the same in Reversing Mace. Also not a good idea. Your main goal may be to redirect the attack. My experience with techniques suggest your primary goal should be to not get hit. Keep parrying and you will get hit.

Note: Parrys were designed to be used with blocks. Either immediately before, or after. Rarely as a singular entity enroute to a counter move that does not control a dimension.

But what do I know. I'm just an old South Central Urban Ninja that nobody listens to.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

becuase the attack is coming in from farther away it is better to use a parrie, becuase our main goal is to redirect the attack , and continue on to the first strike. doing a proper inward block at or above the elbow would take to long and messes up the flow of the technique, and if the attacker knows what he/she is doing they can possibly redirest their strike or even counter to your block.

Uuuuuuh, NO the range is not different. it's still punching range because it's a linear punch.

NO, MY main goal is to not get hit and put the attacker in a disadvantageous position or posture ASAP. My objective is NOT to avoid one attack and leave the attacker poised and ready to deliver another one.

Continuing to a strike without effectively cancelling the opponent increases the risk of running into a blow while delivering your own. Do you really want to trade shots if you don't have to?

Need to learn what a proper inward block is and proper mechanics for sequencial flow. A proper inward block feeds into a backfist just fine here unless you're obsessed with 90 mile an hour Kenpo.


Committed attacks are very hard to simply redirect once in flight. In fact I've never seen anyone in a fight redirect any attack they threw that they actually intended to land. They only redirected shots that were distractions and feints anyway.

Why do people rush to get to the offensive part of the technique without using a solid defense. Here's a thought suppose you backfist him in the stomach but he's a conditioned boxer who is used to getting hit in the gut. So what happens when that backfist you rushed to get off doesn't end up being the "deathblow" you thought it was? I know just rush again to the heel palm and chop and kick and........LOL

It's always "I've got to hit him faster, no matter what the cost". No it should be "put him in a position where I don't have to rush so I have a little time to think." Kenpoists develop this mindset that every kenpoist is faster than every opponent. Please, step into the hood I came from and learn otherwise......

 

[pete]

no matter what, moving yourself out of the line of attack is critical to not getting hit. guys can and will punch right through soft parries and hard blocks. redirect 'em to the place you ain't and hit 'em while they are stll thinking about hitting you.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

no matter what, moving yourself out of the line of attack is critical to not getting hit. guys can and will punch right through soft parries and hard blocks. redirect 'em to the place you ain't and hit 'em while they are stll thinking about hitting you.

Here you go messing up a perfectly good conversation by adding in commentary about things like manuevers. Who asked you? Nobody uses those anymore! LOL