vertical fist

[Manny]

Doing one steps and ho shin sul I like to use (as a counter) a vertical fist to the face area, I use the reverse punch for gut/solar plexus and rib cage but for the head/face area I feel more confortable doing the vertical punch.

I must confess I was trained to hit with my two large knuckles with the horizontal fist all my life but now I do the vertical punch to the face, I use timing,speed and acuracy and power I know that if my fist goes all the way I could get a knockout.

Do you hit this way?

Manny

 

[dancingalone]

I must confess I was trained to hit with my two large knuckles with the horizontal fist all my life but now I do the vertical punch to the face,

Do you strike with the bottom two or three knuckles in the vertical fist as CMA people are wont to do or do you still use the first two knuckles like the Isshin-ryu karate people do?

I recall discussing this before here. Some people feel anatomically that a 3/4 rotation actually is superior to either the vertical or the horizontal fist. For myself, I use the horizontal fist. It's what I have grooved in with years of training and I am effective with it. No reason to change now for me, but I am open to the possibility that another way might be 'best'.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

As most know, we use the vertical fist in Isshin-Ryu. What's not as well known is that we don't use it for everything. At least in my dojo, we use the fist oriented to the direction where it 'fits'. That can mean turning it slightly to line up with a body line or even (unusual) upside down when delivering an overhand punch to the chest. However, I like the vertical punch as taught in Isshin-Ryu. It's fast and powerful, especially when used with our method of generating power.

 

[hungryninja]

I hit with both horizontal and vertical. However, I prefer a 45 degree angle of the fist just because it is a more natural position for me. With my hands resting by my side, if I raise up my arms to shoulder height, my fists are naturally in a 45 degree angle (I think this may be the case for most people as well).

 

[chrispillertkd]

Doing one steps and ho shin sul I like to use (as a counter) a vertical fist to the face area, I use the reverse punch for gut/solar plexus and rib cage but for the head/face area I feel more confortable doing the vertical punch.

I must confess I was trained to hit with my two large knuckles with the horizontal fist all my life but now I do the vertical punch to the face, I use timing,speed and acuracy and power I know that if my fist goes all the way I could get a knockout.

Do you hit this way?

Manny

The ITF has several punching techniques in which the fist strikes vertically (i.e., the side fist is pointing down towards the floor at the moment of impact). It is less common than the horizontally aligned fist but still common enough. Most commonly you see this fist orientation when using a twin-fist vertical punch. This technique is found in lower rank patterns such as Joon-Gun and Toi-Gye, as well as black belt patterns such as Kwang-Gae, Ge-Baek, Sam-Il, Yoo-Sin, Ul-Ji, and Tong-Il. This technique is aimed at the high section of the opponent, and is used against one or two opponents. The elbows remain somewhat bent at the moment of impact (about a 40 degree angle), which means you will be closer to your opponent than when punching with a normal punch.

You can, of course, use a single vertical-fist punch to the high section.

There is also a version of the vertical punch that is aimed at the middle section of an opponent. The elbow here is bent as well, though not as much as when using an upset punch (where the fist impacts with the back-fist side pointing to the floor). Again, you will be closer in to an opponent when using this technique, though not necessarily in range to clinch. This technique is found in So-San tul. You can execute a twin fisted version of this punch against two opponents, but that is relatively rare. Rarer still, you can execute a single vertical-fist punch with a long-fist to the opponents body! The long-fist is usually used in attacking the temple or Adam's Apple. It looks like this:

http://tkd.ucoz.co.uk/index/longfist/0-44

There is also a version of the vertical punch where you use a middle-knuckle fist to strike small vital areas or when you want to penetrate into a target more than usual. This attacking tool can be used with twin or single versions of the vertical punch. Choi-Yong tul has single punch versions of this technique in it.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Kong Soo Do]

The JAMA had an in-depth article years back regarding the horizontal vs. verticle punch. I don't remember specific statistics, but the gist was that the verticle (or near verticle) punch was able to generate considerably more power because it is closer to being anatomically neutral in position. It also runs less risk of injury to the bottom knuckles (read boxer's fracture) and/or damage to the wrist, due to being in that neutral position.

As a side note, punching the face of an opponent who is wearing a helmet of some sort, while being taped up and in gloves may be fine. Punching the face of an attacker isn't on the A-list of things to do. The risk of injuring your hand is high since the head and face have hard surface areas. If the hand is injured you've just limited your defense options i.e. manual dexterity could be dramatically affected for even simple tasks such as handling keys, driving, a door knob, a phone, an improvised weapon or firearm. Secondly, cutting your knuckles on the face of an individual carrying a blood borne pathagen is a real factor. It could lead to winning the fight, only to die later. A much better tactic is the palm heel strike as an example.

Just some tidbits to consider as the two arenas (competition and self-defense) are entirely different venues.

 

[clfsean]

The JAMA had an in-depth article years back regarding the horizontal vs. verticle punch. I don't remember specific statistics, but the gist was that the verticle (or near verticle) punch was able to generate considerably more power because it is closer to being anatomically neutral in position. It also runs less risk of injury to the bottom knuckles (read boxer's fracture) and/or damage to the wrist, due to being in that neutral position.

Butting in as a CMA practitioner that's heavy into striking with hands (say 90% to 95% usage of hand striking vs kicking) , I use "almost" exclusively the vertical fist. The natural alignment of the whole arm comes into play. No twisting of bones, no rotation of joints, nothing. Just straight forward punching. As far a knuckles on target, again, let natural alignment take over. The middle knuckle will pretty much be the first knuckle to make impact, followed by the two on either side, then the pinky. If you have to move or realign your wrist or arm to put knuckles on target, you need to reconsider your strike & go for something more naturally aligned or your need to reconsider your alignment with the target & either raise/lower yourself accordingly.

As a side note, punching the face of an opponent who is wearing a helmet of some sort, while being taped up and in gloves may be fine. Punching the face of an attacker isn't on the A-list of things to do. The risk of injuring your hand is high since the head and face have hard surface areas. If the hand is injured you've just limited your defense options i.e. manual dexterity could be dramatically affected for even simple tasks such as handling keys, driving, a door knob, a phone, an improvised weapon or firearm. Secondly, cutting your knuckles on the face of an individual carrying a blood borne pathagen is a real factor. It could lead to winning the fight, only to die later. A much better tactic is the palm heel strike as an example.

Very true, but as a devil advocate's role, if your hands are conditioned properly, there are plenty of lovely striking targets on the noggin. Places I would stay away from are the top of the forehead (crown I think), sides of the head & around to the back. Those areas will jack your hands up pretty good.

Along with palm strikes, elbows & forearms should be used with much gusto as well on the noggin. But these all fall with the cavaet of conditioning. If you do not condition your weapons properly, you need to re-evaluate what you're doing. You really need to make sure the weapon is solid & usable (hand/wrist/forearm/elbow/shoulder) otherwise a poorly performed strike or a accident during the strike could seriously damage your arm, be it a piece of or the whole thing.

 

[Manny]

The way I am using the vertical fist is something like this: Atacker trows a midle punch (center mass) I deflect it with my lefth forearm while executing from the waist a very quick powerful verticual fist to the chin or mouth/noose area. The blow hits like a wip.

My sambo when doing ho shi sul and near to the atacker uses a fist that is neither a vertical or horizontal fist, it's something like 3/4 rotation fist.

I am liking so much the vertical fist because it's so quick (for me) that I always catch my partner in a blink, however I must admit I use the jab as well when doing hand drills you know the jab plus a cross or a jab plus a cross followed by a hook. As Mr. Mattoks wrote above all depends of the body position and the area of the body ones wants to hit this dictates the kind of strike one is gona use.

Manny

 

[clfsean]

The way I am using the vertical fist is something like this: Atacker trows a midle punch (center mass) I deflect it with my lefth forearm while executing from the waist a very quick powerful verticual fist to the chin or mouth/noose area. The blow hits like a wip.

My sambo when doing ho shi sul and near to the atacker uses a fist that is neither a vertical or horizontal fist, it's something like 3/4 rotation fist.

I am liking so much the vertical fist because it's so quick (for me) that I always catch my partner in a blink, however I must admit I use the jab as well when doing hand drills you know the jab plus a cross or a jab plus a cross followed by a hook. As Mr. Mattoks wrote above all depends of the body position and the area of the body ones wants to hit this dictates the kind of strike one is gona use.

Manny

Why not just hit him with your left hand if it's already going out to meet his punch? You make the bridge & keep on rolling...

 

[sfs982000]

I've started really becoming a fan of the vertical fist strike, I feel that for me it's a quicker strike to throw when sparring or in self defense.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

The way I am using the vertical fist is something like this: Atacker trows a midle punch (center mass) I deflect it with my lefth forearm while executing from the waist a very quick powerful verticual fist to the chin or mouth/noose area. The blow hits like a wip.

That's right out of Isshin-Ryu. Basic exercise #2, the Jodan Oi Tsuki punch or 'uppercut'. It's not a boxer's uppercut. The arm rises and the forearm is a 'rudder' as a block if needed. The fist does turn over, however, and when it is delivered to the face, it is palm up. It is the motion of turning over the fist while rising that provides the rudder blocking motion.

My sambo when doing ho shi sul and near to the atacker uses a fist that is neither a vertical or horizontal fist, it's something like 3/4 rotation fist.

I am liking so much the vertical fist because it's so quick (for me) that I always catch my partner in a blink, however I must admit I use the jab as well when doing hand drills you know the jab plus a cross or a jab plus a cross followed by a hook. As Mr. Mattoks wrote above all depends of the body position and the area of the body ones wants to hit this dictates the kind of strike one is gona use.

Manny

Sensei will often ask the class "Why do we use this fist position [demonstrating a non-vertical fist on a particular move]?" And the answer is always the same "Because it fits!" There are parts of the body that a fist just nestles into very nicely if you turn it to the correct degree before landing it.

 

[Earl Weiss]

The target dictses the optimal technique(s) as far as the ITF goes, General Choi would demonstrate that a normal / horizontal fist would not be optimal for a head level techniques (except perhaps the point of the chin) since (assuming partners of equal heights) it would require the wrist to be bent or the large the knuckles would not hit before the foreknuckles. Having a bent wrist while punching is not desireable. Whether a vertical punch would require a bent wrist depends on the target on the head.

Now, having a vertical punch does expose vital points on the underside of the wrist.

 

[clfsean]

The target dictses the optimal technique(s) as far as the ITF goes, General Choi would demonstrate that a normal / horizontal fist would not be optimal for a head level techniques (except perhaps the point of the chin) since (assuming partners of equal heights) it would require the wrist to be bent or the large the knuckles would not hit before the foreknuckles. Having a bent wrist while punching is not desireable. Whether a vertical punch would require a bent wrist depends on the target on the head.

Yep pretty much...

Now, having a vertical punch does expose vital points on the underside of the wrist.

As opposed to? A flat wrist isn't anymore "protective" to the underside of the wrist than having the arm vertical IME.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Yep pretty much...



As opposed to? A flat wrist isn't anymore "protective" to the underside of the wrist than having the arm vertical IME.

If you train to block / parry hard, those blocks and parries typicaly move in a horizontal fashion, along a line more or less parallel to the floor. If they intercept an arm with a horizontal fist they will contact the bone on the inner or outer forearm. If the fist is vertical and the hard block / parry is moving from that persons center line toward their shoulder line it will impact the soft underside of the arm / wrist where tendons, ligaments and vessels are more susceptible to impact.

 

[clfsean]

If you train to block / parry hard, those blocks and parries typicaly move in a horizontal fashion, along a line more or less parallel to the floor. If they intercept an arm with a horizontal fist they will contact the bone on the inner or outer forearm. If the fist is vertical and the hard block / parry is moving from that persons center line toward their shoulder line it will impact the soft underside of the arm / wrist where tendons, ligaments and vessels are more susceptible to impact.

Ah ok... gotcha.

 

[Cyriacus]

In Self Defense Drills, I dont really tend to think about it, if I do a Vertical Punch.
However, since you asked, I Prefer to Aim with the Middle Knuckle, since as long as it Hits, the Impact is there. And whichever 'Set' of Knuckles Hit next, isnt as Important.

 

[David43515]

I got my start with various CMA and when my first teacher moved away I took up Isshinryu. It`s gotten to the point where the only time I throw a horizontal fist is if it`s a hook, and then it`s 50-50.

 

[Manny]

Why not just hit him with your left hand if it's already going out to meet his punch? You make the bridge & keep on rolling...

Sorry I forgot to tell you, lefth forearma blocks while right and punches (vertical fist), that's why my lefth arm just blocks and not punches simultaneously, however your point is a god one, blocking with lefth forearm and sudenly trow a jab with the same hand and then a right cross-

Manny

 

[clfsean]

Sorry I forgot to tell you, lefth forearma blocks while right and punches (vertical fist), that's why my lefth arm just blocks and not punches simultaneously, however your point is a god one, blocking with lefth forearm and sudenly trow a jab with the same hand and then a right cross-

Manny

No it's ok Manny... I got your idea from your description of the technique. My comment was an after thought.