Does punching vertically really decrease the chances of breaking your hands? How do you do so when you hit that way?
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Wing Woo Gar
Senior Master
Yes! Thank you! I am shocked to see how rare this is in ma gyms. People with black belts that can’t make a proper fist are also usually unable to keep elbow pointed down during a flat punch. This is really foundational beginner training.
I've seen MA experts make fists a lot of different ways. So what's a "proper fist" to you?
caped crusader
Brown Belt
yeah they practice sticking hands too.
caped crusader
Brown Belt
Wado Ryu is also a great school of Karate, shindo yoshin-ryu in there. sabaki to increase power. also to avoid and counter.
Yes, Tensho kata taught just before BB translates to revolving hands, rotating palms or turning palms. This kata emphasizes the soft aspects of GoJu Ryu, and encompasses continuous, flowing movements....as you mentioned above.
Wing Woo Gar
Senior Master
I’m specifically talking about a flat punch here. I use several different fists in different forms. Leopard, ginger, hawk beak, mantis beak, etc. We were discussing elbow flare and vertical vs. horizontal (flat punch). elbow flare and a balled up fist (with 5th metacarpal dropped below the others) is how people fracture the 4th and 5th metacarpals( commonly called a boxer’s fracture) when striking. Boxers tape and wrap to prevent this and other injuries. The same result can be achieved by training the hand to stay in a similar position, and not allowing elbow flare. In MOST fist configurations the dorsal aspect of the hand should be level or flat, meaning that all knuckles line up on the same plane. This structure splints the 5th metacarpal helping to prevent fracture during a strike. This description is not complete, the thumb and saddle joint position are also important, as well as maintaining a space inside the fist and a straight, engaged wrist. I could go on and on about this. Does that help explain my comment? I am happy to elaborate if you like my boring dissertation and want more. It’s far easier to describe it in person than to describe it in text, so this may be lacking some details. Please weigh in on this.
caped crusader
Brown Belt
I only saw it at a dojo but never tried it. I did however train in Wado Ryu.
Is it wrong to turn your elbow joint side way when you throw a straight punch?
Sometime you want to change your straight punch into a spiral punch. You have to turn your elbow joint sideway.
Sometime you want to change your straight punch into a spiral punch. You have to turn your elbow joint sideway.
Oily Dragon
Senior Master
From my secret private vault. This is such advanced level kung fu, I might catch a curse even sharing it.
Attachments
The top one is called "large fist eye (大拳眼)". The bottom one is called "little fist eye (小拳眼)". Most CMA use the "fist face (拳面)" to strike.
Oily Dragon
Senior Master
Notice the structure of the thumb, index, and middle finger combined.
It's almost a Phoenix Eye fist, just slightly humbler.
There are very few absolute "wrong". There are definitely times I choose to let the elbow move out. Best reason off the top of my head is the boxer's move of guarding the face with that shoulder, which I do at times when sparring. You have to move the elbow to the outside for that - arm has to turn.
Tensho was my absolute favorite in Goju. I loved it.
I learned vertical-fist in my first style, Isshin-ryu, where the thumb went on top to "compact the fist and make it stronger" (!), and it was hard to lose that habit as I transitioned to Goju, then Uechi (also unique in its own way), and finally the FMA. I kept doing it automatically for years. But then I got vertical fist again in Wing Chun and in JKD, including sometimes in a boxer's hook in the latter.
I think of an overhand which might over-rotate and, e.g., some Ryukyu Kempo groups doing only a 3/4 rotation, and a shovel uppercut that might be palm-up, and I am far from convinced that there is a "special" orientation for the fist that matters more than what's physiologically comfortable/aligned within a given movement.
I learned vertical-fist in my first style, Isshin-ryu, where the thumb went on top to "compact the fist and make it stronger" (!), and it was hard to lose that habit as I transitioned to Goju, then Uechi (also unique in its own way), and finally the FMA. I kept doing it automatically for years. But then I got vertical fist again in Wing Chun and in JKD, including sometimes in a boxer's hook in the latter.
I think of an overhand which might over-rotate and, e.g., some Ryukyu Kempo groups doing only a 3/4 rotation, and a shovel uppercut that might be palm-up, and I am far from convinced that there is a "special" orientation for the fist that matters more than what's physiologically comfortable/aligned within a given movement.
Wing Woo Gar
Senior Master
You or your style may name and define things differently than I do. I can’t see what you call a straight punch vs spiral punch. I had believed I was specific in my description earlier in the thread. Perhaps someone more articulate than I am can weigh in?
dvcochran
Grandmaster
I have been trying to picture and reconcile this in my head. I know what you mean when you reference boxers guard. Would it be correct to say you would only do this in an open or semi-open stance where the body presented to the opponent? I can definitely see it if I was really close inside on the opponent.
In a kicking style this arm motion would be ripe for getting a mid-section kick when in a closed stance. Of course, what is done with the lead in regards to blocking/punching is very different when punches to the face are illegal.
Close-in, I'm likely transitioning to clinch or something else to get to grappling. If I'm striking-only, I don't tend to play that close in (likely because I think of that as my grappling-transition range). I don't know if my definition of "open" stance would be the same as yours (for me, that would be facing full-front, as opposed to a "fighting" stance, which is bladed).
In any case, my guard changes somewhat as distance changes. In general (though not absolutely), I transition from a classical-looking Karate guard at (and beyond) kicking distance, gradually to a close boxing-type guard at relatively close distances. Obviously, that changes depending upon what both I and my opponent are doing. As for the punch that raises the shoulder (I never picked up a name for this - I've always just called it "the punch that raises the shoulder") to cover the jaw, that's a mid-range weapon for me.
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