Variations on styles - good or bad?

[Jin Gang]

I agree with Flying Crane, but I'm not so sure that a lot of changes are for the good of the art: I think they are based on a superficial understanding of the essences, done to hasten the acquisition of students.

However, I don't assume that "no change" always beats "change", just as I don't assume the opposite. Logically, who can say that if an art hasn't changed in generations, it is because it has reached the pinnacle of its value/precision/whatever? Humans are not perfect, and perhaps something has been overlooked. People are people, and masters are neither gods nor immortals. Perhaps someone with a certain point of view can see something a different way.

Of course, Yang Cheng Fu was right in asserting that additions or deletions should not be made rashly. However, if one has a clear, respectful understanding of the essences and makes changes that still respect those essences, if those changes could withstand critical examination in terms of martial effectiveness (for example), then wouldn't they be valid?

Sorry guys, but logically, I can't abide the idea that "if changes could be made, they'd have been made by now". Did Yang's ancestors say that? Did the first person to systematize martial arts say that? If not, then why should the changes stop with YCF?

Or should we define terms: changes to essences are bad, but variations on expressions of those essences could be good if they withstand scrutiny and still respect those essences?

Right. The Chinese culture (and the Japanese culture as well), tends to idolize ancestors. Everyone is going to SAY that their ancestors were geniuses who were perfect, and that they themselves are unworthy of being called their equals, and would never change the traditions. But things change all the time. Yang Cheng Fu's taijiquan was only two generations old when he received it, and it had clearly changed already, between his father and his uncle, not to mention the changes his grandfather made to the Chen style he learned, and the changes the Chen family made to the shaolin and other methods they inherited. Martial arts change, with every person and every generation, it is inevitable, regardless of what propriety towards one's ancestors requires in terms of etiquette. Sometimes the change happens in a significant or deliberate way, sometimes in a slow drifting way. There is no judgement on that fact, it is not necessarily good or bad. We should honor those who came before us by carefully examing and considering everything they have to teach. All we can do is study, test, and see what works. Sometimes someone finds something new works better for them than the way of their ancestors. Sometimes the old way gets changed without being understood, and that is a shame.

 

[Xue Sheng]

And the ex-Xingyiquan guy say....Of course...a yiquan guy

I agree with Flying Crane, but I'm not so sure that a lot of changes are for the good of the art: I think they are based on a superficial understanding of the essences, done to hasten the acquisition of students.

However, I don't assume that "no change" always beats "change", just as I don't assume the opposite. Logically, who can say that if an art hasn't changed in generations, it is because it has reached the pinnacle of its value/precision/whatever? Humans are not perfect, and perhaps something has been overlooked. People are people, and masters are neither gods nor immortals. Perhaps someone with a certain point of view can see something a different way.

It can sometimes depend on who you talk to but ultimately, with older styles of CMA, the test of time is what matters. Talk to the Dai family and they will likely tell you Xingyiquan is inferior and missing a lot (Xingyiquan comes from Dai family Xinyiquan) but yet it is a successful art and it has been around a while and was even used by the Chinese military. However it is likely that if you talk to a practitioner of traditional Xingyiquan they will tell y ou the military version is inferior. And all may look down on Yiquan

Of course, Yang Cheng Fu was right in asserting that additions or deletions should not be made rashly. However, if one has a clear, respectful understanding of the essences and makes changes that still respect those essences, if those changes could withstand critical examination in terms of martial effectiveness (for example), then wouldn't they be valid?

The key here is “made rashly” Yang Luchan changed Chen Laojia Yilu to come up with his Yang style. His sons Yang Banhou likely made no real changes but Yang Jianhou did make some. The sons of Yang Jianhou, Yang Shouhou most likely practiced a form of Taijiquan closer to that of his uncle Banhou but Chengfu learned what his father taught him and then changed it yet again. But they all were preiviously trained to a rather high level in the style of their fathers. Also the changes in some cases were likely based on Body type, Chengfu was, I believe, rather tall compared to the rest of his family.

But there are hundreds of various styles of taiji out there that are really not taiji at all. They were made by a person with little skill but a lot of ideas. They may be a martial art but they are far from Taijiquan in principle

Sorry guys, but logically, I can't abide the idea that "if changes could be made, they'd have been made by now". Did Yang's ancestors say that? Did the first person to systematize martial arts say that? If not, then why should the changes stop with YCF?

I do not think Yang Chengfu ever really said that since he was discussing a change at the time of his death. However it was, once again, not being done rashly. That and after Yang style you get Wu, Wu/Hao and Sun. All viable styles of Taijiquan and all following similar principles and all good Taijiquan and I do not remeber reading anything from the Yang family that came out saying these styles were horrible done rashly. But there is the ocassional underhanded comment. Recently heard a Chan family mamber say all styles (5 families) were good but to really understand the martial side you need laojia erlu... Yang Luchan did not learn erlu per the Chen family and neither did the founder of Wu/Hao

Or should we define terms: changes to essences are bad, but variations on expressions of those essences could be good if they withstand scrutiny and still respect those essences?

Taijiquan being good or bad or being Taijiquan for that matter appears to be defined by the guidelines set up by the Chen and Yang Families. A doing Shaolinquan slow does not make it Taijiquan kind of thing

 

[Flying Crane]

I'll just go ahead and repost what I said earlier, with emphasis on the part that hasn't yet been pointed to by others:

Changes do happen. Some people understand the system deeply enough to make meaningful changes. Other people do not, and their changes can be to the detriment of what they do and anyone to learns from them.

I'd wager that everyone who makes deliberate changes, believes it is for the best. I'd also wager that in most cases, they are wrong about that.

I think this is in line with the issue of not making changes rashly.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

That, right there...is wrong, as is the next bit ...

Let's just talk about Yang Taiji here since I don't know Chen Taiji.

Please show me the following 5 leg skills used in Yang Taiji. We can go through the 108 moves long Yang form one move after another move since each move has a unique name for it.

Does Chen Taiji have it? I have not seen it yet.

1. "sweep".

http://cdn2.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/deashibarai.htm

2. "scoop".

http://cdn2.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/kouchigari.htm

3. "cut".

http://cdn2.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/osotogari.htm

4. "lift".

http://cdn2.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/uchimata.htm

5. "hook".

http://cdn2.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/ouchigari.htm

 

[mograph]

I don't think a good taijiquan practitioner would let the opponent get such a good grip on the jacket.
But regarding legs, in taijiquan you kick or stomp, aiming no higher than the knee. That's my understanding.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Let's just talk about Yang Taiji here since I don't know Chen Taiji.

Please show me the following 5 leg skills used in Yang Taiji. We can go through the 108 moves long Yang form one move after another move since each move has a unique name for it.

Does Chen Taiji have it? I have not seen it yet.

1. "sweep".

http://cdn2.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/deashibarai.htm

2. "scoop".

http://cdn2.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/kouchigari.htm

3. "cut".

http://cdn2.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/osotogari.htm

4. "lift".

http://cdn2.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/uchimata.htm

5. "hook".

http://cdn2.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/ouchigari.htm

No, I do not think I will, there are leg skills there if you train it properly with a sifu who really knows Yang taijiquan, they are in the form, and you will also find them in Chen, if you do not want to believe they are there then don't. I have no desire to waste my time searching websites looking for youtube videos and trying to convince one who is already convinced they do not exist. I know they are there, used some of them, and that is good enough for me.

But if it helps you may want to look at some of the applications of White crane spreads its wings and a few of the other postures, particularly the 13 postures, most of which are in the long form and understand just because it looks a certain way in the form does not mean it looks that way in application

Have a nice day

 

[mograph]

Ah. I need to look deeper. Thanks.

 

[blindsage]

Let's just talk about Yang Taiji here since I don't know Chen Taiji.

Please show me the following 5 leg skills used in Yang Taiji. We can go through the 108 moves long Yang form one move after another move since each move has a unique name for it.

Does Chen Taiji have it? I have not seen it yet.

1. "sweep".

http://cdn2.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/deashibarai.htm

2. "scoop".

http://cdn2.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/kouchigari.htm

3. "cut".

http://cdn2.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/osotogari.htm

4. "lift".

http://cdn2.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/uchimata.htm

5. "hook".

http://cdn2.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/ouchigari.htm

They are all there in Yang style. If you don't see them your understanding is lacking not the system. Good luck with that.

 

[blindsage]

Hey guys, aren't these pretty poses I found on the internet?

 

[East Winds]

"One may not make a show of one's cleverness by rashly making additions or deletions. The former worthies developed these methods. If alterations or corrections could be made , the ancestors preceding me would already have put them into effect."

I believe that Yang Cheng-fu was talking about the Yangs 10 essences all of which came in one form or another from the Chen family. (You only have to look at the similarities between the first 15 moves of both forms to see this). Changes in form will occur due to body form, shape, ability and fitness, but irrespective of these, everyone can adhere to the essences. Once these become changed (Tie-dyed pyjama types and self styled new age masters) that is where the real damage is done to Taiji. Those who have only studied Taiji for a short time (4 or 5 years) often think they can improve on the system (been there, done that, got the T-shirt), but after a while, a realisation occurs that the old guys really did know what they were talking about!!

Very best wishes

 

[Instructor]

I don't think a good taijiquan practitioner would let the opponent get such a good grip on the jacket.
But regarding legs, in taijiquan you kick or stomp, aiming no higher than the knee. That's my understanding.

A good practitioner of ANY art should expect that sometimes things happen in a fight that are completely unexpected. I once had to fight a person covered in cole slaw, ever try to do a wrist lock on somebody covered in cole slaw?

 

[Xue Sheng]

A I once had to fight a person covered in cole slaw, ever try to do a wrist lock on somebody covered in cole slaw?

:lfao: I can honestly say... no, no I have not ever tried to do a wrist lock on somebody covered in cole slaw

 

[Instructor]

If you want to make wrestling a spectator sport again just add cole slaw.