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Now that I'm not on a phone, let me expand.I'll stipulate that my comments were only as regards self defense. If you're the aggressor, you probably deserve whatever punishment the law provides.
Now that I'm not on a phone, let me expand.
Self defense is an affirmative defense, a claim that you did indeed break the law -- but you had a damn good reason. To wit, the other guy was trying to do you harm, and your actions were reasonable and necessary to prevent that. Let's take outright assault off the table, as we are all gentlefolk here and would never consider committing an unjustified assault.
At that point, why you had the cane is immaterial -- unless it somehow goes to show that you created a condition that caused the assault. The only thing that will matter is whether or not the judge or jury (if it gets that far...) finds that your use of the cane was reasonable and appropriate to protect yourself.
Never, ever, even once been a problem for me. I carry a cane every day.My criticism is that it's only practical for a person who would normally be carrying a cane, I.e. An aging person or someone with a disability.
You'd think so but you'd be wrong.I think an able bodied person wielding a cane can draw unnessessary attention
Sheesh, that goes for ANY weapon or self defense action! Don't act in self defense unless it's actually self defense. That's pretty much the rule.and if you should ever use that cane in an altercation you'd better be damn sure it's an open and shut case of self defense, which is rarely the case.
Turns out that people are too oblivious to notice and those that do either think it's cool or don't give a crap.Benefits of carrying a cane are that you can legally carry them anywhere. A business is not likely to tell you not to use a cane even if you appear able bodied for fear of lawsuits.
Just make sure your use of Deadly Force is justified. It's really pretty simple.That isn't really my concern. What I'm concerned about is after you actually use a cane and end up in court. If you're able bodied you'll probably have to justify why you had a cane to begin with, this may not be a crime but I think it can hurt your defense.
A weapon is a weapon. You carry inconspicuous ones so that the sheeple don't flip out.Some might make the "better tried by 12 thsn carried by 6" argument. Personally I hate that cliche, in limited contexts it makes sense but it's not justification for ignorance of the law. Also, I have LEO friends who advise against seemingly innocuous "tactical" weapons like flashlights and pens. Law enforcement still recognizes that these items are weapons and while they aren't illegal they can cause a cop to be suspicious of your intentions.
You're over-thinking it. Just carry what you can legally carry. If you want to make sure you don't scare the sheeple, then keep it hidden or carry something that appears innocuous to the untrained eye. After that, just adhere to the 4 Pillars of Justifiable Deadly Force.So to recap, I like the combat cane stuff I've seen. It makes sense for me to train and learn it now so that I may use it one day when It is more socially appropriate for me to carry a cane. But I'm not sure it's the best idea for an able bodied person to walk around with a cane. What do you guys think? I'm only raising the issue because I've seen a few combat cane guys promoting it lately.
Nope. It's not a problem. On the rare occasion that people ask, it's almost always someone who already knows me and I just tell them, "I'm pretentious" or "I like it." Never been a problem.Good points, I can see the value of a cane representing an improvised weapon, much like the stick is in Filipino arts. Outside of that I'm still not sure. At home, I'd rather use a gun. In the car, you'll still possibly have to explain why the cane was there if you use it.
Not even that. The other side has to prove that you weren't justified in using it as a weapon.2 - If you're in a courtroom in the US, the other side has to prove that you do NOT have a trick knee - which is impossible. You don't have to prove anything.
THIS!!!Depends on the charge... Aggravated assault isn't influenced by whether you carry a cane as an affectation or as a medical necessity. Remember that self defense is a defense of justification. ..
Now that I'm not on a phone, let me expand.
Self defense is an affirmative defense, a claim that you did indeed break the law -- but you had a damn good reason. To wit, the other guy was trying to do you harm, and your actions were reasonable and necessary to prevent that. Let's take outright assault off the table, as we are all gentlefolk here and would never consider committing an unjustified assault.
At that point, why you had the cane is immaterial -- unless it somehow goes to show that you created a condition that caused the assault. The only thing that will matter is whether or not the judge or jury (if it gets that far...) finds that your use of the cane was reasonable and appropriate to protect yourself.
I'm glad carrying a cane hasn't been a problem for you. This thread isn't really about any one specific person. I don't know you or how you look. My concern is that a young able bodied guy who ends up cracking someone over the head with a cane might be subject to scrutiny for having a cane. If you're an aging guy in his 40s who's not in super great shape you're gonna be viewed differently than a mid twenties/early 30 year old athletic guy. It would be like using an ax handle/chain/baseball bat on someone, you're gonna have to explain where you got the weapon, and in court they may just paint you as a trouble maker. This is easier to do in court on a younger social guy out and about with friends than it is for a 40 something or older home body.Never, ever, even once been a problem for me. I carry a cane every day.
You'd think so but you'd be wrong.
Sheesh, that goes for ANY weapon or self defense action! Don't act in self defense unless it's actually self defense. That's pretty much the rule.
Turns out that people are too oblivious to notice and those that do either think it's cool or don't give a crap.
Just make sure your use of Deadly Force is justified. It's really pretty simple.
A weapon is a weapon. You carry inconspicuous ones so that the sheeple don't flip out.
My problem with products such as the Cane-Masters "Combat Cane" is that they're over priced for what they are. Just go to the Farm & Fleet store and buy a hickory Stock Cane. Simple and cheap.
You're over-thinking it. Just carry what you can legally carry. If you want to make sure you don't scare the sheeple, then keep it hidden or carry something that appears innocuous to the untrained eye. After that, just adhere to the 4 Pillars of Justifiable Deadly Force.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
You're missing the point. The point is, how old you are doesn't matter.I'm glad carrying a cane hasn't been a problem for you. This thread isn't really about any one specific person.
<- That's my picture.I don't know you or how you look.
And I'm telling you that you're concern is unfounded. When you crack someone over the head with a cane, what matters is whether or not you were JUSTIFIED in doing so, not whether or not you need a cane to walk.My concern is that a young able bodied guy who ends up cracking someone over the head with a cane might be subject to scrutiny for having a cane.
Actually, no. Turns out that's irrelevant.If you're an aging guy in his 40s who's not in super great shape you're gonna be viewed differently than a mid twenties/early 30 year old athletic guy.
No you're NOT. You're going to have to explain WHY YOU USED IT AS A WEAPON. Where you got it and why you had it is only relevant if your explanation for why you used it is not believable because it sounds like you were starting a fight. If it's clear that you used the cane for self defense, then that's all that matters.It would be like using an ax handle/chain/baseball bat on someone, you're gonna have to explain where you got the weapon
I've been carrying canes for 15 or 20 years, since my 30's or so. I don't limp (unless I'm injured). And I've known guys who were younger than me to do the same. It's, honestly, not a problem.and in court they may just paint you as a trouble maker. This is easier to do in court on a younger social guy out and about with friends than it is for a 40 something or older home body.
You don't even need to do that. You only have to convince the DA/Prosecutor that you were justified in your use of the cane as a weapon. End of story. The only time it matters past that is if there is enough of a question of the justifiability of the use of a cane as a weapon that it might go to a Grand Jury and thence on.Like I mentioned though, I talked to my lawyer friend and it may not be a big concern. You just have to convince a jury you sometimes need the cane and it was a weapon of opportunity.
No it isn't. It's perfectly darn simple. Just follow the 4 Pillars of Justifiable Deadly Force. That's ALL. The people who get into trouble for doing what they thought was reasonable have almost always violated one of those rules or appear to have.The "somehow goes to show that you created a condition that caused the assauly" is where my cause for concern arises, but like you said that's a concern regardless of the weapon you use. People who get into disputes that lead to violence often think they're acting in the right, if it's an open and shut case there's no cause for concern but it's the gray area where trouble can arise. Somehow what seems like a common sense call to you and everyone else results in a good guy getting in trouble or a bad guy walking free. But if you clearly and decisively act within the law you're probably okay, I just don't think its always so simple.
Sorry but you're wrong things aren't that simple. You are not a lawyer are you? I don't care about the 4 pillars, I'm not interested. If you carry a cane fine, go ahead.No it isn't. It's perfectly darn simple. Just follow the 4 Pillars of Justifiable Deadly Force. That's ALL. The people who get into trouble for doing what they thought was reasonable have almost always violated one of those rules or appear to have.
It's this simple. If it's legal for you to carry a cane then IT'S LEGAL FOR YOU TO CARRY A CANE.
You're over-thinking this.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
Fair enough, I'm coming from a frame of reference from someone in the U.S. Still, you can't carry a gun everywhere over here. Or a knife for that matter. I can understand that with knee surgeries you could justify carrying a cane. You as an individual are clearly not the person I'm referring to in this thread. I talking about a healthy young man walking around with a cane, or perhaps even driving with one in his car. Im 31, if something goes down and I crack a guy over the head with a cane I might just have some explaining to do.
Sorry but ...things aren't that simple.
...self defense is nuanced in itself and is not the same in every jurisdiction ...there are hundreds of cases in every state that have developed an interpretation of what each states statutory self defense statute means."
The "somehow goes to show that you created a condition that caused the assauly" is where my cause for concern arises, but like you said that's a concern regardless of the weapon you use. People who get into disputes that lead to violence often think they're acting in the right, if it's an open and shut case there's no cause for concern but it's the gray area where trouble can arise. Somehow what seems like a common sense call to you and everyone else results in a good guy getting in trouble or a bad guy walking free. But if you clearly and decisively act within the law you're probably okay, I just don't think its always so simple.
Not exactly... Or it depends on what sort of court. If you find yourself charged with assault, and you assert that you were justified in defending yourself, you've moved the burden of proof into your lap. You've openly admitted that you did indeed strike/smash/hurt/whatever the other guy, contrary to laws which say you ain't supposed to do that sort of thing... BUT you had a damned good reason -- namely that he either intended or was in the act of doing unto you first/worse, and you acted to stop it.Not even that. The other side has to prove that you weren't justified in using it as a weapon.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
It would be looked at no differently than any other way a person used force: did they have a legal justification for the force they used. Hit someone in the head with a cane, and kill them; it doesn't matter whether you're an 85 year old relying on a cane for balance or a 20 year old MMA fighter. Did you have legal justification for the force you used? If it was sufficient for lethal force, than you were OK. The age, infirmity, etc go into the assessment of reasonableness -- but not whether you needed the cane for walking.I'm glad carrying a cane hasn't been a problem for you. This thread isn't really about any one specific person. I don't know you or how you look. My concern is that a young able bodied guy who ends up cracking someone over the head with a cane might be subject to scrutiny for having a cane. If you're an aging guy in his 40s who's not in super great shape you're gonna be viewed differently than a mid twenties/early 30 year old athletic guy. It would be like using an ax handle/chain/baseball bat on someone, you're gonna have to explain where you got the weapon, and in court they may just paint you as a trouble maker. This is easier to do in court on a younger social guy out and about with friends than it is for a 40 something or older home body.
Like I mentioned though, I talked to my lawyer friend and it may not be a big concern. You just have to convince a jury you sometimes need the cane and it was a weapon of opportunity.
Actually, yeah, it really is that simple. The fact that you don't like the truth doesn't change it.Sorry but you're wrong things aren't that simple.
I'm as much a lawyer as you apparently are. So where do I get my information? From similar sources to what you're claiming you do: actual lawyers and law-makers. The difference is that 1) I didn't start with a preconceived notion and then try to make facts fit what I wanted to hear 2) the legal experts I reference specialize in this sort of thing 3) I paid attention to what they have to say.You are not a lawyer are you?
Because you don't know what they are or how they relate to self defense. This is because you didn't read them after being advised to. Read them. The information comes from actual lawyers and is specific to using weapons for self defense.I don't care about the 4 pillars, I'm not interested.
OK. I chose to listen to people with real names such as Ohio Attorney General Mike DeWine and a whole host of legal experts in the CCW and Firearms for Self Defense community.I talked to my lawyer friend "Matt Murdock" again he expanded on the topic:
Which is exactly what I wrote and what you chose to ignore when you told me above that you "don't care about the 4 pillars, I'm not interested" You don't know about Preclusion or Imminent Jeopardy and the rest because you already decided before hand that you had the answer and didn't like what I was telling you. Now your buddy "Matt" is agreeing with me and you don't even know it! You think that he's saying something different because you already refused to pay attention."not to get all legal on you but b/c i hate seeing all the wanna-be lawyers on martial talk --> Yes self defense is an affirmative defense. At the same time, in many jurisdictions, you lose the defense if you initiated the confrontation or escalated from non-deadly to deadly force.
Well dang, doesn't that just sound familiar? It's exactly what I already told you and you just told me that I'm wrong. I specifically wrote that it doesn't matter if you were carrying a weapon, provided that it's legal for you to do so, but what mattered is if your use of it is justified (post #31 and several other times). But, because I know you're still not going to pay attention, let's go ask Ohio Attorney General Mike DeWine about using a weapon in self defense, shall we?The criminal justice system is more nuanced than people often understand and the decisions of police/prosecutors/judges/juries are often based on their general feeling or reaction. It would end best for a person involved in an altercation where a cane was used if the responding officer believes that the use of force was justified and declines to pursue the issue further.
That's nice. However, actual examples of people using weapons for self defense seem to not bear out his concern. "What examples," you ask? Glad you asked. Here are, literally, thousands of them. You can read for days on end of actual examples. In the vast majority of them, it doesn't matter that the person had the weapon, what matters is that the use of it was considered "justified."I think that this result is more likely if you have a good reason for having a cane as opposed to no reason at all (I feel like it) or worse yet (I carry it for self defense)"
I really wish you and "Matt" would stop using Straw Man arguments. I didn't write that so stop claiming I did. What I wrote was, "You're going to have to explain WHY YOU USED IT AS A WEAPON. Where you got it and why you had it is only relevant if your explanation for why you used it is not believable because it sounds like you were starting a fight. If it's clear that you used the cane for self defense, then that's all that matters." Are you deliberately ignoring this, like the rest?After further back and forth Murdock said this:
" everyone thinks that the cop is just going to take them down town and they are going to raise the "self defense" claim and they are going to get let go. If that was the case then they would never charge anyone because everyone knows to say that.
There "Matt" goes again, agreeing with what I already wrote and you already ignored: " Where you got it and why you had it is only relevant if your explanation for why you used it is not believable because it sounds like you were starting a fight. If it's clear that you used the cane for self defense, then that's all that matters." Remember the "Armed Citizen" link I pointed you to just a few sentences ago in this post? Notice how very many of them end with "Police declined to file charges" or "the police chief said, 'this is a clear case of self defense'." or have the Police praising their actions.if they don't buy your defense then they will charge you and let the jury sort it out,
Again, you made an assumption in your thread-start that you're "not sure it's the best idea for an able bodied person to walk around with a cane" because "If you're able bodied you'll probably have to justify why you had a cane to begin with." Again, it turns out that the answer is still, "No, why you had it is irrelevant as long as it was legal for you to have it." What matters is if your use of it as a weapon is legally justified. I've told you. "Matt" has told you. Mike DeWine has told you. Legal experts from the firearms world have told you.Again self defense is nuanced in itself and is not the same in every jurisdiction
there are hundreds of cases in every state that have developed an interpretation of what each states statutory self defense statute means."