Using alternate articles and movement

[mrhnau]

Does anyone train using alternative weapons? By this, I mean things you might commonly encounter w/out a weapon analogy. Does anyone train on how to use a chair (blocking or interferance) or other people (again blocking or interferance), or is this too impractical in a real fight? I'm trying to think of circumstances when ordinary tactics might be a bit limited (limited space, a number of attackers, ect). Are most fights too quick for consideration of alterative tactics like this? I know alot of weapon forms can be easily translated to ordinary items like a cane, umbrella or kitchen knives. I was thinking of items w/out normal weapon analogies. I'm not thinking "jackie chan" type things, but are these things so impractical they can only be used in Hollywood?

Also had another thought. Was watching Ultimate Fighter 2, and most of the fights wound up against the cage, which I think might be a bit unrealistic (yes, I know there are walls, but thats a little different, they can be used as a weapon of sort). Then I thought, rooms are just larger cages, and I believe most facilities where training takes place don't really use the differing room features you encounter (doors, hallways, fixed tables, ect). Does anyone train using normal features that exist in everyday life? Are considerations given to techniques that might not be applicable in some circumstances? For instance, I imagine a roundhouse kick might not be applicable in a crowded bar. Alot of these things would be improvised, I'm just wondering if any training is applied in this area.

Thanks!

 

[searcher]

I train my students on the use of newspaper and magazines for use as a short baton. They work well against pressure points and soft targets.

 

[arnisador]

I talk a great deal about using everyday items, but don't train it as much as I probably should.

 

[Gin-Gin]

Does anyone train on how to use a chair (blocking or interference) or other people (again blocking or interference)? Then I thought, rooms are just larger cages, and I believe most facilities where training takes place don't really use the differing room features you encounter (doors, hallways, fixed tables, etc. Does anyone train using normal features that exist in everyday life? Are considerations given to techniques that might not be applicable in some circumstances? For instance, I imagine a roundhouse kick might not be applicable in a crowded bar. A lot of these things would be improvised, I'm just wondering if any training is applied in this area. Thanks!

Hi mrhnau,

First of all, I like your signature.

To answer your question (& please remember that this is just one student's response) in the MA system I study (Ed Parker's American Kenpo), we are taught from the beginning to use "environmental awareness." After we learn a self-defense technique in the "ideal phase" (where the attack, our response & the result is specified) we are taught to adjust &/or alter techniques slightly to accomodate our surroundings. For instance, you said that a roundhouse kick might not be applicable in a crowded bar. That's very true, so one might use a knee strike instead because of the shorter distance between you & the attacker; adjusting the weapon to the situation without interrupting the flow of the response.

Although we in EPAK don't have a specific technique that requires us to "pick up a chair or a broom & block with it", we are told that being aware of our environmental conditions can help us deal with danger & even avoid it. Everyone has natural weapons that can be used for self-defense (for instance, the action of brushing your hair could be an upward elbow strike to an opponent's jaw, or the act of sneezing could be a head butt, etc.). My instructor occasionally reminds us in class that we can use everyday household items. I don't know if you are studying a martial art or not, but if you are interested in reading more on the subject, Ed Parker wrote at least two books which contain the examples I mentioned & more on the subject of using natural weapons or household items to defend one's self: "Infinite Insights into Kenpo, Vol. I - Mental Stimulation" & "The Women's Guide to Self-Defense." Although the latter book's title implies that it is for women (it was written in the 1960's), IMO the techniques are simple enough for anyone of either gender to utilize, whether they are a martial artist or not.

There may be more books on the subject out there (if anyone else knows of any, please post them--I would like to know as well), but those are the only two of which I'm aware.

I hope some of my rambling helped.

Sincerely,
Gin-Gin :asian:

 

[MJS]

Does anyone train using alternative weapons? By this, I mean things you might commonly encounter w/out a weapon analogy. Does anyone train on how to use a chair (blocking or interferance) or other people (again blocking or interferance), or is this too impractical in a real fight? I'm trying to think of circumstances when ordinary tactics might be a bit limited (limited space, a number of attackers, ect). Are most fights too quick for consideration of alterative tactics like this? I know alot of weapon forms can be easily translated to ordinary items like a cane, umbrella or kitchen knives. I was thinking of items w/out normal weapon analogies. I'm not thinking "jackie chan" type things, but are these things so impractical they can only be used in Hollywood?

I wouldn't think that it'd be impractical to use a chair, broom or any other weapon we come across, to aid in our SD. If we looked around everywhere we went, we'd be surprised as to how many things are out there that we can use. Its also a plus if faced with a weapon such as a knife. I'd much rather pick up a chair, stick or umbrella and use that to help defend against a blade, than attempt an empty hand disarm.

Also had another thought. Was watching Ultimate Fighter 2, and most of the fights wound up against the cage, which I think might be a bit unrealistic (yes, I know there are walls, but thats a little different, they can be used as a weapon of sort). Then I thought, rooms are just larger cages, and I believe most facilities where training takes place don't really use the differing room features you encounter (doors, hallways, fixed tables, ect). Does anyone train using normal features that exist in everyday life? Are considerations given to techniques that might not be applicable in some circumstances? For instance, I imagine a roundhouse kick might not be applicable in a crowded bar. Alot of these things would be improvised, I'm just wondering if any training is applied in this area.

In Kenpo, there are techniques in which your back is against a wall. I do think that it would be a benefit to ones training though to incorporate scenario drills. You'll definately get a different feel for the techniques while trying to work them in close quarters, doorways, etc.

Mike

 

[proud beginner]

look :

http://www.russianmartialart.com/catalog/video/cs.wmv

 

[mrhnau]

look :

http://www.russianmartialart.com/catalog/video/cs.wmv

Thats pretty cool! Thanks! I've actually looked for Systema in the area, but not found anyone teaching it.

 

[proud beginner]

There's a lot of one day to one weeks seminars all around the world and I can tell you that it's worth the trip !

Next one is 5 days in Serbian mountains and very cheap.

 

[Paul Genge]

There is also a 8 day residential course being held in Germany starting on the 4th September 2005. A few of us from the UK are making the trip.

As for using chairs and other improvised weapons there is plenty of that in Systema, but the most important thing is to learn about yourself. Without this knowledge you will be unable to use any of the weapons available to you.

There are plenty of video's on my website that include using a chair, fighting in a vehicle ect... I hope this wets the appetite.

Paul Genge
Russian Martial Art Northwest

 

[ginshun]

We train with common items and using different things in the environment quite often.

For some reason an ice scraper comes up as a weapon quite a bit.

Thats Wisconsin for you I suppose.

 

[RichK]

mrhnau, just like Gin said in EPAK there is what is called evironmental awareness. I used to do at least 2 classes a month on it, I need to get back into it. I would have different types of simulations. In a car, bring in stools like in a bar, a table and chairs like at a restaurant, all in street clothes. Anything and everything can be used. Searcher, my favorite thing is also a magazine rolled up. My dad taught me some 30 years ago that if I get into trouble pick up an equalizer (chair, school desk, book, anything available). The part about being against the "cage" isn't that uncommon. Walk around your place of home, place of business, local park, shopping center, mall. Yes a wall can be thought of as that "cage" but have you ever noticed how a chain link fence is the same thing?

 

[Gin-Gin]

I'd much rather pick up a chair, stick or umbrella and use that to help defend against a blade, than attempt an empty hand disarm.

Me too!

Yes a wall can be thought of as that "cage" but have you ever noticed how a chain link fence is the same thing?

Good point. :ultracool