Uselessness of kata in the real world!

[Cri70]

Something else comes to mind in this discussion. When interpreting kata, do you assume the opponent has a cutting weapon in hand? Even if you don't know for sure, do you assume they do? Does this affect your bunkai? In bunkai dealing with an initial attack, should the bunkai be interpreted and worked out according to the assumption that the other person has a cutting weapon in hand? I could definitely be wrong, but one of the reasons I don't believe karate was meant for back and forth fighting is precisely this point. I don't particularly think karate as a system assumes the other person is empty handed

A very good question.

I don't know.

I don't (assume it) for a simple reason: if there were a reliable way to survive a knife/dagger attack, we would know (for any longer blade, the only thing you do is run faster than the other guy if he's even minimally competent).. and we don't. Evidence (well, a recent Jesse Enkamp video with a knife defense expert, but Jesse usually doesn't publicize bs and the guy made sense) tells us that the great majority of survivors of knife attacks aren't trained in any particular way. We don't know about the people who do not survive, but in that case training wouldnt matter anyways.

Since knife attacks havent changed particularly in the last hundreds of years (if anything, nowadays there's less people competent with a knife), I doubt karate would have been developed for that. Also, if you add that metal was non existent in Okinawa, so all blades had to be imported, it feels to me unlikely that a specific anti-blade unharmed skill would develop. We also have kobudo, which had the sai whose job is exactly to counter blades (basically, trap the arms before they can be unsheathed) so the specific mechanism of karate seem to be limited to unarmed combat at close distance.

However, it's fair to say I've read that you can use similar movements with say a bo (staff) with minimal adjustment, and some of the kata movements do seem quite natural that way. On the other hand, there's specific weapon katas, and the ones we got were kinda advertised consistently as not so.

So I think classic karate kata were illustrations of principles and drills for unarmed combat which had been previously practiced with the teacher, while kobudo katas are for weapons. But different evidence should surface, obviously I would change my mind.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Karate (and its precursor) and weapons have pretty much always been two separate disciplines.

Sorry for the confusion. I should have put this in a more historical context. Obviously kobudo is now a part of some karate styles, my own included, and there are styles that are strictly kobudo oriented such as those begun by Matayoshi, Yamani and Taira that some karateka also study as a separate curriculum from kobudo masters.

I was putting it within the framework of kata (the post's topic), and traditional kata were mostly developed prior to the formal joining of kobudo and karate. This was done by the masters of the early-mid 1900's in order to ensure these Okinawan weapon traditions were not lost - imbedding them into the much more popular karate was a good way to preserve them. Recently, more karate schools have added weapons to their curriculum though I doubt that most of them have a good understanding of their proper use.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Karate (and its precursor) and weapons have pretty much always been two separate disciplines.

The open hand technique can map directly into the weapon technique.

For example,

Open hand technique "comb hair".



Weapon technique "comb hair".

 

[Badhabits]

Lol well I stand corrected. I was thinking along the lines of people worried about say, a mugger trying to rob them. Being that karate is "civilian self defense" it seemed reasonable that "back then" they would be just as concerned with getting stabbed as we would be today- possibly more so. A disarmed populace maybe, but small cutting weapons could still easily be made, and people would pretty much have to have knives for peasant work and daily life. Y'all have way more knowledge than me, but it seems hard to swallow that a civilian self defense system wouldn't take into account a guy trying to stab you while robbing you on a dark road somewhere.
I mean I get the whole Kobudo and farm and fishing tools as weapons.
But are we saying that the non weapons kata just aren't concerned with an armed attacker?

 

[Badhabits]

That's it! I'm quitting karate and going over to the MMA side!

 

[Badhabits]

I didn't mean to imply karate was specifically an anti blade system. Just that it would take into account the possibility of an armed attacker.

 

[isshinryuronin]

But are we saying that the non weapons kata just aren't concerned with an armed attacker?

That's generally what I'm saying. Karate kata is fundamentally an empty-handed endeavor to handle the most common types of personal civil attacks one might encounter in 1800's Okinawa (and often today in the West). This is not to say karate doesn't have weapon defense techniques, they are just not found in the kata. Of course, some kata technique can be modified for weapon defense, but generally there is much difference between dealing with a blade and a punch. I think FMA has a more sophisticated weapon defense than karate as weapons use is, and has been, an integral part of that art for most of its evolution I believe.

 

[Same Trick]

The Jitte kata of shotokan hold applications for defense against attacks with a stick/staff(bo).

As for Karate and blades, there is the “knife-hand”.
Legend tells that karate masters had to register their hands as deadly weapons

Happy New Year

 

[Buka]

“That’s right, karate made my whole body a weapon.”

Don Knots.

 

[Stuarto]

“That’s right, karate made my whole body a weapon.”

Don Knots.

I instantly started to hear The Andy Griffith Show theme song start ringing in my ears

 

[isshinryuronin]

The Jitte kata of shotokan hold applications for defense against attacks with a stick/staff(bo).

This may be a uniquely Shotokan thing. Jitte is not much done in Okinawa (perhaps in some schools of Chibana's lineage). It is done in wado ryu and shito ryu, both also Japanese styles. I could find no reference to their jitte being designed for weapons defense. It's possible that such interpretation was an add-on by Shotokan after 1930, perhaps even after 1960/70/80. Could it be only some branches have adopted such bunkai?

Another oddity is that it seems from a number of Google searches I did, only some jitte moves can be interpreted as bo defense technique. Katas normally follow a theme so one would expect a whole kata of weapon defense, not just a few moves thrown in the middle. Seems too random. To me, this further indicates a recently modified interpretation of the kata someone had and passed on - not in the original design of jitte.

Let me close by saying I am not a senior level Shotokan practitioner - these are just my impressions from my general knowledge and sense of kata. I would be interested in hearing a very authoritative (7th dan+) Shotokan comment on this subject.

 

[Same Trick]

This may be a uniquely Shotokan thing. Jitte is not much done in Okinawa (perhaps in some schools of Chibana's lineage). It is done in wado ryu and shito ryu, both also Japanese styles. I could find no reference to their jitte being designed for weapons defense. It's possible that such interpretation was an add-on by Shotokan after 1930, perhaps even after 1960/70/80. Could it be only some branches have adopted such bunkai?

Another oddity is that it seems from a number of Google searches I did, only some jitte moves can be interpreted as bo defense technique. Katas normally follow a theme so one would expect a whole kata of weapon defense, not just a few moves thrown in the middle. Seems too random. To me, this further indicates a recently modified interpretation of the kata someone had and passed on - not in the original design of jitte.

Let me close by saying I am not a senior level Shotokan practitioner - these are just my impressions from my general knowledge and sense of kata. I would be interested in hearing a very authoritative (7th dan+) Shotokan comment on this subject.

Jitte often interpreted as dealing with 10 opponents, perhaps one or two of them swinging sticks

Jitte is not very much practiced, same as Jiin kata, their big brother Jion is more in favor which was one of my favorite kata’s, not even a knife hand in that one

Nidan here

 

[Badhabits]

Interestingly enough, in his book "Empty Hand the essence of budo karate" there's a series of pictures where Mabuni demonstrates defense against Bo using technique from "Passai Sho of the shuri te"

 

[Cri70]

Lol well I stand corrected. I was thinking along the lines of people worried about say, a mugger trying to rob them. Being that karate is "civilian self defense" it seemed reasonable that "back then" they would be just as concerned with getting stabbed as we would be today- possibly more so. A disarmed populace maybe, but small cutting weapons could still easily be made, and people would pretty much have to have knives for peasant work and daily life. Y'all have way more knowledge than me, but it seems hard to swallow that a civilian self defense system wouldn't take into account a guy trying to stab you while robbing you on a dark road somewhere.
I mean I get the whole Kobudo and farm and fishing tools as weapons.
But are we saying that the non weapons kata just aren't concerned with an armed attacker?

Do we have common protection against laser rifles? It's a similar thing. They exist, they are very dangerous but it's extremely unlikely you will ever be attacked by somebody carrying them.

300 years from now, in a completely different society... who knows.

Okinawa does not have any local source of metal. Metal weapons (including daggers and swords) were imported from China, were expensive, and therefore the reserve of the richer upper classes (who were also the one practicing and forming karate.. you don't really want to practice much, after 12 hrs in the fields).

The people most likely trying to mug said rich people were very unlikely to have access to any. Add the weapon centralization by the Ryukyu king in the 14th century and the japanese rules probably trying to limit access to weapons in the period following the invasion, and knives are just not in the picture.

Even farming implements were usually in wood and stone, rather than metal.

And btw, the idea that farming implements were used as weapons makes for a good story, but there's no evidence of it (nor of the contrary). In medieval europe (where incidentally metal was plentiful) peasants were called to war had to do with what they had, but this was seldom the case in the kingdom after the unification.

Finally, sure you can use anything as a weapon in a pinch, but for people whose livelihood was based on farming, to risk their precious implements as weaponry even to train would have been really stupid - even assuming they had the energy to do so - only to be met with King's guards and warriors who did have swords. Most of Europe is like that in our days - since almost nobody carries guns, and carrying knives is illegal and only few do so.

Also the ryukyu are small - most people knew someone who knew someone.

So the most likely attacker in that context is someone who's drunk, wants to show off, has a grudge or something along these lines.

What is way more likely to happen is that there's a gang of attackers, not just one. Which is why Te was all about about disabling one person at a time quickly and decisively while positioning yourself and keep moving, so that he goes down and stays down and you can deal with the next (not necessarily kill: that's japanese drama. A dislocated joint, a broken elbow or a face hit by an elbow will do just fine). It's not by chance that there's lots of spinning throws in the katas: spinning is silly against a single attacker but can be helpful against a group (it's the same in swordfighting, for example).

 

[Cri70]

Interestingly enough, in his book "Empty Hand the essence of budo karate" there's a series of pictures where Mabuni demonstrates defense against Bo using technique from "Passai Sho of the shuri te"

Is it the "X block", where the bo is supposedly stopped at the tip? I don't wish anyone to try..

 

[Badhabits]

Do we have common protection against laser rifles? It's a similar thing. They exist, they are very dangerous but it's extremely unlikely you will ever be attacked by them.

300 years from now, in a completely different society... who knows.

Okinawa does not have any local source of metal. Metal weapons (including daggers and swords) were imported from China, were expensive, and therefore the reserve of the richer upper classes (who were also the one practicing and forming karate.. you don't really want to practice much, after 12 hrs in the fields).

The people most likely trying to mug said rich people were very unlikely to have access to any. Add the weapon centralization by the Ryukyu king in the 14th century and the japanese rules probably trying to limit access to weapons in the period following the invasion, and knives are just not in the picture.

Even farming implements were usually in wood and stone, rather than metal.

And btw, the idea that farming implements were used as weapons makes for a good story, but there's no evidence of it (nor of the contrary). In medieval europe (where incidentally metal was plentiful) peasants were called to war had to do with what they had, but this was seldom the case in the kingdom after the unification.

Finally, sure you can use anything as a weapon in a pinch, but for people whose livelihood was based on farming, to risk their precious implements as weaponry even to train would have been really stupid - even assuming they had the energy to do so - only to be met with King's guards and warriors which did have swords. Most of Europe is like that in our days - since almost nobody carries guns.

Also the ryukyu are small - most people knew someone who knew someone.

So the most likely attacker in that context is someone who's drunk, wants to show off, has a grudge or something along these lines.

What is way more likely to happen is that there's a gang of attackers, not just one. Which is why Te was all about about disabling one person at a time quickly and decisively while positioning yourself and keep moving, so that he goes down and stays down and you can deal with the next (not necessarily kill: that's japanese drama. A dislocated joint, a broken elbow or a face hit by an elbow will do just fine). It's not by chance that there's lots of spinning throws in the katas: spinning is silly against a single attacker but can be helpful against a group (it's the same in swordfighting, for example).

I hear you, but the questions this post makes me ask are-
Why does Kobudo include nun chukkas, oar, gig pole, tonfas, small scythe (don't remember what it's called). Those are all fishing and farming tools.
What did fisherman use for knives if they couldn't get metal? I can't imagine any fisherman not having a knife.
I guess that's what I'm imagining here- someone trained in self defense getting robbed somewhere by a poor peasant with a small fishing knife of something fashioned from broken glass or some such. The "old masters" said karate wasn't for fighting. It is for a life or death situation. If I'm going to rob you, I'm going to have a weapon. I'd be stupid not to. It still seems crazy to me that karate wouldn't be expecting a weapon if it's meant for that type of situation.......
Lol but if the poor couldn't get knives that would explain why we see examples of defense from the bo in the old katas!

 

[isshinryuronin]

we see examples of defense from the bo in the old katas!

Can you give a couple of specific examples of bo defense from a particular kata?

 

[Same Trick]

Can you give a couple of specific examples of bo defense from a particular kata?

As mentioned in thread, the Jitte-kata, and also reference to a book by Mabuni(Shito-ryu) were Bassai-sho kata show defense application against the stick/Bo, the Shotokan Bassai-sho could at places show such too, however I would think more of arm control technique.
Jitte is often referred to as a Tomari kata and so seem to date back to the “Okinawan times”, Bassai-sho is credited as a creation by Itosu and so also an “Okinawan” thing, thus the empty handed defense against stick might not have been a too remote thing for traditional karate

 

[isshinryuronin]

Bassai-sho is credited as a creation by Itosu and so also an “Okinawan” thing, thus the empty handed defense against stick might not have been a too remote thing for traditional karate

Passai/Bassai kata predates Itosu and was brought to Okinawa from China. Itosu did popularize it, however. He may have learned it from Matsumura or someone else.

A more important point: Most karate techniques can be used against a variety of attacks. A Phillips head screwdriver was designed to drive screws. Yet, it has been used as a weapon, to punch holes or even to break apart frozen food (I've used it for the last two examples but I'm capable of using it for the first as well) even though that was not its designed originally intended use. I've taught using a high block against a club and an open hand middle block against a knife. These moves are also found in kata. Should I assume those blocks were invented for weapons defense?

Yes, there are many moves in many kata that can be applied against a club or bo, or even knife (or gun if you're feeling lucky) but that does not mean those were the originally intended uses of the technique. I have no doubt that Mabuni demonstrated a move found in a particular kata being used against a bo, but he could have chosen from 20 moves from 20 kata to demonstrate that as well. This is the broader lens you have to look thru. There is a difference between meant to be and can be.

 

[Same Trick]

Passai/Bassai kata predates Itosu and was brought to Okinawa from China. Itosu did popularize it, however. He may have learned it from Matsumura or someone else.

Yes, but, I wrote Bassai-sho, the little/small Bassai is credited to Itosu.
And there’s no credible source that Bassai/Passai is a kata from China, but it could be speculated so.